Hump Day: A Refresh Has Arrived!

[Talksofa]

BTW, regarding hobby project vs a business can swallow the costs easily:

My most expensive Invision license now has a renew price of $310 per year.

I have a few dozen websites that we intended to convert to Invision (some Xenforo, some Wordpress). If you multiply say 20 sites by $310 thats a maximum of $6.200 per year. Even if we dont need every component and try to minimize the costs, for a small business thats a considerable amount of money.

Technically, Invision is superior over other solutions like Xenforo, that was the reason for our project, but now has come the time to reevaluate if the few tech benefits outweigh the money and how we should deal with the lowered trust we now have.

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, Davyc said:

He most likely can but you won't get the positive answer you want.

I've had time to sleep on this and my conclusion is this:

You say you haven't increased prices in a decade. Who's fault is this?  A small annual increase is easier to swallow than a massive increase in one fell swoop.

Such a large increase for your corporate clients will be less than chicken feed and they will most likely offset this against tax. Us hobbyists can't do that and such an increase of these proportions is ridiculous if expect us to buy into it.

In a declining hobbyist market you would be best placed to split your business into two - one catering for corporates who you can charge whatever big bucks they're willing to part with, and one more affordable option for hobbyists; the two are mutually incompatible and you can't expect hobbyists to pay corporate prices.

You need to take a look at what your competition is charging and price yourselves competitively.  You can argue that you have the better product, but when priced way above competitors it doesn't look so attractive from the ground up.

A small number of your clients who are used to being on this (and I say this loosely) community platform have probably voiced the concerns of many and who are now leaving the fold.  How big a number do you have to lose, silently, before you realise you made a huge blunder? A number 'we' will never know.

It's like you have taken a big stick and beaten us with it and then in come the pacifiers with, "well, you know" as though that is some kind of ointment to soothe the pain.

I just bought my second licence this year, that was bought with faith and trust in you as business, which incidentally has grown because of the grassroots support of your hobbyist clients over many years; that has flown the nest with this latest announcement.

So you should be aware that whilst your costs are rising, just the same as ours, your income is about to take a dive.

I am fully aware that prices rise constantly and it's a pain we all have to bear, but imagine if you went into your local grocery store and when you get through the checkout and have to pay the bill, you find that it's 50% more than last year.  How happy would you be with that?

Small increases over a period of time hurt less and it's YOUR fault that you didn't do this over the last decade and now you want us to swallow the sob story - no way.  Am I angry, you bet - I wasted good money buying that second licence and there's no way I'm throwing any more at it. Your loss, my gain.

You may be great at developing software, but you suck as looking after your clients, especially those who have walked this path with you since the beginning.

Morning Davy.

You're right, it's our fault that we chose to not raise prices for over a decade and then made a decades worth of price changes overnight (well over-day but that's not a saying).

Yes, the hobby market is declining for sure. Social media and other free apps have pulled a lot of business away from community platforms like ours. It's just change, and life is full of change.

We want to keep creating a market leading platform that brings millions of people together. We want communities of all sizes, from boutique to brand to bring people together with our products. We are not drawing lines and saying "We're not for you". If you had the forum product, the cost of the increase is $2.50/month. I understand any increase can be hard to stomach. If your renewal is imminent and would prefer to pay for 6 months this one time, then just get in touch and we'll take care of that.

We understand that people are upset and considering leaving. That's a reaction I empathise with. However, first reactions are rarely the right ones.

Thanks again for your thoughtful feedback.

[Adriano Faria]

2 hours ago, InvisionHQ said:

But this time, as others have already written, I am very concerned about the collapse of the Marketplace.

Let’s just not forget that it can (and it will) get worse for devs:  the increase of IPS comission from 10% to 20% per sale and the weekly payment to monthly payment!

I understand that this is an “internal” issue but these two will certainly be the the latest straw to me.

[Ilya Hoilik]

10 minutes ago, kims79 said:

Ipchat -> abandoned without notice

You are really wrong. I remember the notice one or two months before it is shutted down. And, if I remember correctly, even notice in our admin control panels.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Ilya Hoilik

[abobader]

43 minutes ago, Matt said:

We are not removing support, just changing how you get it after 1st January 2022. Take a look at our support forums now, you will see very fast responses from our team. We are staffing the support forums to ensure that no question is missed.

Not many as I am one of them will post in the open forum about "our forum issue" for support, as I said, this not a license support term, we need the email support as well, sorry if you disagree, but I think IPS making a mistake here.

[Matt]

7 minutes ago, Dll said:

In all seriousness Matt. If you / the rest of the management at invision think that sort of timescale is acceptable when communicating such a big jump in price, then I really do recommend you hire someone with more knowledge and skills in communication and customer care. You needed to be weeks ahead of this, to give people reasonable notice. 

Fair points, appreciate the candour. 

1 minute ago, abobader said:

Not many as I am one of them will post in the open forum about "our forum issue" for support, as I said, this not a license support term, we need the email support as well, sorry if you disagree, but I think IPS making a mistake here.

I hear you. Maybe just give it a try? It's easy to throw out a thousand mental barriers as to why something won't work. You might actually find it a better system for most support issues.

If you have an account issue or something private to discuss, just use the contact us link.

[kims79]

3 minutes ago, Ilya Hoilik said:

You are really wrong. I remember the notice one or two months before it is shutted down. And, if I remember correctly, even notice in our admin control panels.

When we renew our licenses for 6 months (now a year), the announcement made two months before, it is not a pre-notification.

[beats23]

Would be nice if contributors got a discount.

[Davyc]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

If you had the forum product, the cost of the increase is $2.50/month.

@Matt When you break down a large amount into a monthly amount and base it on the lowest denominator, it looks trivial, but we're not talking about a monthly payment.  To just drop this onto everyone without so much as mention is really bad karma. You just need to look at this topic and realise how toxic it is and there is no remorse, just excuses and rubbishy PR talk. Sorry mate, it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't sit well with your clients and that is something you need to address quickly before the floodgates open.  I really don't like have to post these replies and I don't like being forced out of the door after such a long time, but if that is the intent and there is no relenting then out of the door I will go, with great sadness.  The one solace is that there are alternatives out there that are more affordable.

[Tripp★]

14 hours ago, Jordan Miller said:

Yeah I do see how it comes off like that. There was no great way to share this news. There's an email being sent out in the near future as well explaining things further. 

There is no great way of sharing the news? Maybe not, but there is an absolute disastrous way of doing it, and naturally, that's the option Invision went for. You can't defend that.

I am not annoyed about the price increase - the writing has been on the wall for that for a long time, it's been a long time coming, I think most of us see that. Although I think that 55% increase more is a bit much in one go, but that's my problem and I will have to deal with it. Unexpected price increases with no advanced warning or even notice what-so-ever has just gone and dissolved a good chunk of confidence I have in IPS as a company.

This is what I'm really annoyed about. This came out of the blue! There was no prior announcement (Before the fact) and only came after the fact after people started noticing which is an absolutely appalling way to deal with it.

ANY form of notice after a good period of time say - 6 months (One renewal period) before the fact would have been a much better way of dealing with it. It would have given people a chance to be prepared for what was coming, to make arrangements thusly. 

Also the email calling this "Not bad news" - you're having a laugh, aren't you? You're right; it's not bad. It's terrible. Also not a fan of posting my problems publically, as my site is NSFW. I'm not a fan of that - at all. If most of your support tickets are "How to do X", or "How do I set X up" then you should make it clear that those questions could be asked in whatever forum you have set up. But quite often my problems, for example, are actual problems, not me asking how to do X. 

There was a better way of sharing the news, and as usual you picked the worst option imaginable. Your "Good-Feels Corporate Speak" doesn't change any of that. I will be seriously considering my future with IPS software, I'm not happy with being reliant on Invision Software for my site, and haven't been for a long time, this is yet another nail in the coffin for me.

[kims79]

3 minutes ago, Davyc said:

@Matt When you break down a large amount into a monthly amount and base it on the lowest denominator, it looks trivial, but we're not talking about a monthly payment.  To just drop this onto everyone without so much as mention is really bad karma. You just need to look at this topic and realise how toxic it is and there is no remorse, just excuses and rubbishy PR talk. Sorry mate, it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't sit well with your clients and that is something you need to address quickly before the floodgates open.  I really don't like have to post these replies and I don't like being forced out of the door after such a long time, but if that is the intent and there is no relenting then out of the door I will go, with great sadness.  The one solace is that there are alternatives out there that are more affordable.

It is especially a new proof of total contempt of its customers, we are forced to pay now once a year, but we speak in monthly increase, IPB should make politics.

[Daddy]

@Matt Your current stance on support makes absolutely no sense. Speaking for myself, majority of my inquires are private, and not something I want to post publicly. Why do I have to make a thread that says "make me private" only to wait for it to be so; so I can then state my problem.. Where's the logic in that?

No matter how you sugar coat it, you're eliminating basic support. The whole "well, you may get a quicker response if anyone can reply" isn't something people like myself who pay a premium price for premium software wants to hear.

With platforms like Discord making forums irrelevant, this seems like a step in the wrong direction. You should be making the software more accessible, rather than limiting your audience to established communities.

Big tech companies you seem to cater to aren't using the marketplace, it's the hobby websites and small timers that do, which so happens to be the same group you just cut off at the knees.

I feel like you should be focused on the marketplace for residual revenue, instead of squeezing all the expense from your clients. Though, I can't imagine many devs stuck around after the drastic changes made previously.

With the recent and questionable changes to the marketplace, exclusive cloud-only features, and now this.. Seems like an intentional move to coax people into switching to cloud hosting.

Also, where is Zapier support for self hosted?

Edited September 15, 2021 by Deathicated

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, kims79 said:

Anyway, it's been some time that IPB pushes us to leave them (you plan to stop your activity?), they have absolutely no understanding of the current markets, the big boxes are moving more and more only to alternative solutions like Discord, facebook, ect ... to discuss with their community (the proof, even Bethesda closed its forums recently!)

The premium argument would be funny if it was a joke, but it seems that @Mattis serious.

Ipboard has nothing premium, it is behind in all the fields and does not evolve any more since years, it is especially about correction of bug, on the contrary, it even tends to lose functionalities!

• Ipchat -> abandoned without notice.
• Mobile application -> abandoned without notice.

No, the annual renewal has no more sense, it is a total nonsense, because precisely we have no roadmap on what is planned, on the contrary, we go from bad surprise to bad surprise with your communication completely off the mark.
Especially since @Jordan response indicating to reload our accounts 6 months before to keep this period is for me a new proof of total contempt for your customers.

 

Lol is a joke ? We should also pay you for each "major" version? So we would have to pay for the software + a renewal for security updates + an additional fee for upgrades? You're definitely missing the point! 

 

The truth is that for a few years, nothing has been added on IPB, except the club function, the rest is bug fixes! 
You put forward the webp as a novelty, no sorry, the addition of two lines of codes to accept this file extension which is already supported by the majority of CMS for a few years is not a novelty.

The addition of zapier is not a novelty either, it is above all a proof of laziness on your part to really integrate these functionalities in IPB, because if tomorrow Zapier closes, or decides like you to increase its prices of 30%, we are taken hostage! 

I will start by believing that you get a com for each request sent by an IPBoard installation.
What's the next step, suppressing the sending of mail outside the provider? By the way, why didn't you take AWS which is the most common ?

When I read that on this subject, it confirms me even more in what I think, you try to do as little as possible today to rehash as much as possible.

You want me to pay 30% more and once a year? 
Ok, start by listening to your community, work on your software so that it respects today's web standards and that it gets the best possible score on pagespeed especially on mobile, offer us a real integration of wepb, discord, private messages in instant, do your job when you validate an extension on the market to make sure it works properly and then I would accept to pay more.

 

That's a lot to digest, I'll do my best.

I think we do understand the market quite well. We live and breathe it daily. There's no revelation that smaller communities are closing or moving to social media. It's just a change, like all the other changes we've faced over the last 20 years building community platforms.

I don't think it's fair to say that we haven't added any major features in the last 2 years. Our blog shows the following large features added in that timespan:

Activity stream email subscriptions
3 improvements to spam management
Achievements system (badges, points, rules, ranks, etc)
Better PWA support including service worker and notifications where supported
Zapier
A new health dashboard with better reporting
Highlight topics in forum view when staff reply
A new solved post feature
Anonymous posting
Sign in with Apple
Brought the marketplace into the Admin Panel
Trial functionality added to commerce
A new clean default theme
Improvements for theme designers
Page builder widgets
Private staff notes on topics
New view modes for forums and topic lists
Topic summary sidebar
ACP Dark mode
Improvements to notifications
Brand new stats dashboard with live updating widgets
Club improvements
Performance and security updates
Search insight stats
Stock photo picker built in
Blog categories
Invite and referral functionality added
RSS feed improvements (including image support)

And those are just the headlines. All of that functionality is available just by paying the renewal which for forums is now only $80/year.

I understand that you're upset, and I read every word you wrote.

[Matt]

10 minutes ago, Davyc said:

@Matt When you break down a large amount into a monthly amount and base it on the lowest denominator, it looks trivial, but we're not talking about a monthly payment.  To just drop this onto everyone without so much as mention is really bad karma. You just need to look at this topic and realise how toxic it is and there is no remorse, just excuses and rubbishy PR talk. Sorry mate, it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't sit well with your clients and that is something you need to address quickly before the floodgates open.  I really don't like have to post these replies and I don't like being forced out of the door after such a long time, but if that is the intent and there is no relenting then out of the door I will go, with great sadness.  The one solace is that there are alternatives out there that are more affordable.

I think the floodgates are open 😅

I do not enjoy reading that people are upset. We could have done better with the announcement via email, but I think whatever we did on this topic would have met with a similar reaction.

I want you to know that no one is forcing you out of the door.

[The Old Man]

The quick fix here for all is for IPS to halt the switch to annual renewals up front. I get that some people might like to switch to annual renewal but at least give us a choice, please.

Looking at my Client Centre earlier, I'm shocked.

Next month October 1st, I have about 2 weeks to find $155 then another $30.

 

 

Then November, I now have to find another $185.

 

Then the final kick in the nuts, a week before Christmas, I have to find $310.

 

 

$680 in the next 3 months without any notice. Great, thanks IPS.

[abobader]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

I hear you. Maybe just give it a try? It's easy to throw out a thousand mental barriers as to why something won't work. You might actually find it a better system for most support issues.

If you have an account issue or something private to discuss, just use the contact us link.

I think you forgetting I am old time member/customer, and I know these support forums well.

I think I give up here, and indeed will not pay that over $1000 just to get support, sure it very clear that you care/after about "business" customers, and the license fee you just rise it up, just to use the software, btw, forum support normally for "free" software as we all know it.

The only thing I could not understand it very well, why you rise the price when you want to drop the email support? Why not rise the price for whom want the email support.

 

[kims79]

@Mat

Tout ce que vous citez reflète la mauvaise foi d’IPB.
Zapier n’est pas un nouveau produit qui profite à tout le monde puisque ce service externe n’est pas gratuit.
L’amélioration des performances est le moins que nous puissions faire compte tenu des résultats catastrophiques du logiciel sur mobile et des scores de vitesse de page.
Les problèmes de sécurité sont les moindres.
Le système de spam ipboard est un désastre et provoque plus de faux positifs qu’autre chose.
Le système de badge et la PWA sont des choses qui sont maintenant livrées nativement avec presque tous les CMS (peut-être pas la PWA).
Tout ce que vous mentionnez ne sont pas de vrais ajouts, ni de l’innovation mais un rattrapage de ce qu’IPB aurait dû intégrer il y a longtemps et il y a encore beaucoup de travail à faire (voir mes messages précédents) pour prétendre être une solution « Premium ».
Et heureusement, vous ne devriez pas avoir à payer en plus des frais d’abonnement pour l’achat du logiciel pour chaque « ajout », sinon, cela s’appelle DLC.

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, kims79 said:

It is especially a new proof of total contempt of its customers, we are forced to pay now once a year, but we speak in monthly increase, IPB should make politics.

I am just illustrating the change isn't as daunting when you break it down. We're used to speaking in terms of 6 months, and now we're talking in terms of annual costs. So even if we went from $25/6 months to $50/year it feels like a big jump.

11 minutes ago, Deathicated said:

@Matt Your current stance on support makes absolutely no sense. Speaking for myself, majority of my inquires are private, and not something I want to post publicly. Why do I have to make a thread that says "make me private" only to wait for it to be so; so I can then state my problem.. Where's the logic in that?

No matter how you sugar coat it, you're eliminating basic support. The whole "well, you may get a quicker response if anyone can reply" isn't something people like myself who pay a premium price for premium software wants to hear.

With platforms like Discord making forums irrelevant, this seems like a step in the wrong direction. You should be making the software more accessible, rather than limiting your audience to established communities.

Big tech companies you seem to cater to aren't using the marketplace, it's the hobby websites and small timers that do, which so happens to be the same group you just cut off at the knees.

I feel like you should be focused on the marketplace for residual revenue, instead of squeezing all the expense from your clients. Though, I can't imagine many devs stuck around after the drastic changes made previously.

With the recent and questionable changes to the marketplace, exclusive cloud-only features, and now this.. Seems like an intentional move to coax people into switching to cloud hosting.

Also, where is Zapier support for self hosted?

I understand that for you, your support enquiries are private. But you are not illustrative of most customers. 🙂 As always, if you have account issues or something to discuss in private, then use the contact us link. 

I believe that we will improve support, and not take anything away with this change. We will build a support community right here, the same thing we do for our customers. You'll get full transparency as to what issues our customers face before you purchase, or even as an existing customer. You might find tips or help for issues before opening a ticket. 

I realise that any change is often met with resistance, but give it a while and you may be surprised.

Zapier is being unlocked for self hosted customers in the next release.

9 minutes ago, The Old Man said:

The quick fix here for all is for IPS to halt the switch to annual renewals up front. I get that some people might like to switch to annual renewal but at least give us a choice, please.

Looking at my Client Centre earlier, I'm shocked.

Next month October 1st, I have about 2 weeks to find $155 then another $30.

 

 

Then November, I now have to find another $185.

 

Then the final kick in the nuts, a week before Christmas, I have to find $310.

 

 

$680 in the next 3 months without any notice. Great, thanks IPS.

Drop us a message and we'll issue you a 6 months invoice. I do not want to be responsible for any soft tissue injuries in sensitive places.

[Duken]

57 minutes ago, Matt said:

1 hour ago, Duken said:

@Matt can you anwser this?

You can keep getting updates from third party apps until those third party apps expire, regardless of your Invision Community license situation.

Ok to dubble check.

If i don't review the IPB license

• Im still able to use the marketplace to download or upgrade bought applications / themes.
  • Can i buy or install new (free) applications or themes?
• Can i use the support forums (with the community members?). 
• Can i download the Current stable release: 4.6.6 from the site? Or do i need to save this package myself?

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Duken

[Dll]

24 minutes ago, Davyc said:

@Matt You just need to look at this topic and realise how toxic it is and there is no remorse, just excuses and rubbishy PR talk.

This line from yesterday stood out - I mean who'd have thought that Invision re-made their entire website to coincide with the sudden/zero notice price rise just to show their customers that it was worth it. That is dedication for you.

Quote

We feared the backlash, so we wanted to also offer a website refresh as a demonstration that we're always looking to better ourselves.

 

[Matt]

10 minutes ago, abobader said:

I think you forgetting I am old time member/customer, and I know these support forums well.

I think I give up here, and indeed will not pay that over $1000 just to get support, sure it very clear that you care/after about "business" customers, and the license fee you just rise it up, just to use the software, btw, forum support normally for "free" software as we all know it.

The only thing I could not understand it very well, why you rise the price when you want to drop the email support? Why not rise the price for whom want the email support.

 

You do not need to give us $1000 to get support. Our peer-to-peer community-led support forums still exist.

We have created new support forums which are staffed.

What you experienced in the past from 'unofficial' forum support will not be representative of what support you will get now.

5 minutes ago, kims79 said:

@Mat

Tout ce que vous citez reflète la mauvaise foi d’IPB.
Zapier n’est pas un nouveau produit qui profite à tout le monde puisque ce service externe n’est pas gratuit.
L’amélioration des performances est le moins que nous puissions faire compte tenu des résultats catastrophiques du logiciel sur mobile et des scores de vitesse de page.
Les problèmes de sécurité sont les moindres.
Le système de spam ipboard est un désastre et provoque plus de faux positifs qu’autre chose.
Le système de badge et la PWA sont des choses qui sont maintenant livrées nativement avec presque tous les CMS (peut-être pas la PWA).
Tout ce que vous mentionnez ne sont pas de vrais ajouts, ni de l’innovation mais un rattrapage de ce qu’IPB aurait dû intégrer il y a longtemps et il y a encore beaucoup de travail à faire (voir mes messages précédents) pour prétendre être une solution « Premium ».
Et heureusement, vous ne devriez pas avoir à payer en plus des frais d’abonnement pour l’achat du logiciel pour chaque « ajout », sinon, cela s’appelle DLC.

Oh boy, I think it's only fair to tell you that I've only just reached Checkpoint 3 with Duolingo. If you need a meal ordering, or a hotel reservation booking, I can do that. But for this, I'm going to have to rely on Google translate. 😄

Ok, well - I think you're expressing your thoughts and opinions which I respect. I know Zapier isn't free but it's a popular app that can really help plug in your community to your existing workflows.

[Rizenmusic]

5 minutes ago, Matt said:

I realise that any change is often met with resistance, but give it a while and you may be surprised.

You can't be serious about this, can you?

[Adriano Faria]

1 minute ago, Duken said:

Ok to dubble check.

If i don't review the IPB license

• Im still able to use the marketplace to download or upgrade bought applications / themes.
  • Can i buy or install new (free) applications or themes?
• Can i use the support forums (with the community members?). 
• Can is download the Current stable release: 4.6.6 from the site? Or do i need to save this package myself?

 

You can only purchase with an active license, AFAIK.

[Duken]

1 minute ago, Adriano Faria said:

You can only purchase with an active license, AFAIK.

😞 

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, Duken said:

Ok to dubble check.

If i don't review the IPB license

• Im still able to use the marketplace to download or upgrade bought applications / themes.
  • Can i buy or install new (free) applications or themes?
• Can i use the support forums (with the community members?). 
• Can is download the Current stable release: 4.6.6 from the site? Or do i need to save this package myself?

 

Ok, so if your Invision Community license expires, you can:

- Update any marketplace apps that are still active but only until they expire.

If you want to renewal an app, or buy new apps you need to renew your license (and if you have missed upgrades due to not having an active license, go ahead and upgrade to the latest version).

Just now, Dll said:

This line from yesterday stood out - I mean who'd have thought that Invision re-made their entire website to coincide with the sudden/zero notice price rise just to show their customers that it was worth it. That is dedication for you.

 

Many things were updated yesterday, the site, the self hosting prices, and we launched a new range of cloud packages which offer huge increases in media storage, and we dropped the online user limit.