Followers - Friends

[Woodsman]

I have never been a follower to anyone except for when I was in the military and I had no choice.

I don't follow and I don't expect to be followed either... I have a Great Dis-Liking to Cults and Cultist views.

Now Friends I can deal with. Friends can be more personable to address over a following.

Invision Power was here long before Facebook or Twitter. I guess in a sense, a Leader in community substance, growth and understanding.

So my question is why are we following where we were a community that lead and got these others to follow?

[Mark Round]

I dont like the word followers either ,in ips 3 i added people as friends i prefer that term.I guess it depends on how and what your community is about really.I know that on facebook you add people as friends and there is a tab that says follow as well,maybe have both if thats what you are shooting for?

[Woodsman]

My point exactly... IPB was here long before Facebook and their terminology, and the same with Twitter.

I really hate to see IPS taking a back seat to these Newbies of the Internet Community Scene.

While walking my dogs I expect them to follow or they will get a slight tug on the leash with the command follow....

[-GR-]

I am not crazy about the whole following thing either. Friends is much more personable. Maybe it is as easy as editing the language strings to change it? A toggle setting would be nice.

[Woodsman]

I agree -GR-

Renaming Followers to Friends in the language string is easy enough. That is not really my issue.

The issue In the back of my mind is where did Invision drop from a Leader in this industry to a follower?

Forum boards  set the standards to community involvement, where Invision itself has taken over the active role of Leader in the forum communities.

This is obvious with all the new comers from VB, IF and the free forums...

I just hate seeing a leading force being put in a 2nd place category and being OK with it. 

[Woodsman]

I guess my point in this is this...

I don't take a back seat to anyone. This is why became a member/client of IPS. Back in the day even when they (IPS) were just getting started we all knew we were getting into something awesome where all others were only 2nd best.

Twitter, Facebook and the others in my mind are just riding on the Jet stream IPS has created.

[opentype]

You are mixing 1.) your understanding of certain words with 2.) actual technical functionalities (friend system vs. subscriber system) and 3.) some general, almost philosophical considerations about the state of online communities and the companies behind them. That’s waaaay too messy and can’t lead anywhere. Can you maybe just pick one of these aspects and make a clear point about it? Otherwise it just feels like random rants about nothing and anything. 

[Neil2]

You are mixing 1.) your understanding of certain words with 2.) actual technical functionalities (friend system vs. subscriber system) and 3.) some general, almost philosophical considerations about the state of online communities and the companies behind them. That’s waaaay too messy and can’t lead anywhere. Can you maybe just pick one of these aspects and make a clear point about it? Otherwise it just feels like random rants about nothing and anything. 

​I do not know how long you have been using IPB, but for Woodsman and myself we both have been using IPB for 10+ years seeing a lot of changes with the software with some being excellent and others not worth a wooden nickel.

Anyway his point as well as a lot of folks including myself that is, IPB use to be a leading and cutting edge designer with forum software long before the other "social medias were even a thought", it was unique, different, and better laid out especially in the admin cp than all other forum software I have used and demoed, but the dramatic switch in the attempt to copy the face book, pay-pal, twitter, and what ever else there is out there, IPB is taking a step away from their unique design and have themselves turned into followers.

If you want to be a follower, then by all means be a follower, but IPB has never been a follower until recently and me personally being an old timer I am not use to this and cannot figure out why "if it ain't broken, why try to fix it"

Removing Friend and changing to Follower does sound like a cult or making the individual user sound more like a business.

 

[opentype]

If you think the friend system is more suitable for your or other IPS site(s) than a user content subscription system, feel free to provide good reasons for it. Then we can discuss these points and weigh the pro’s and con’s. Maybe it would even be good to have both. 

But those general comments about the IPS company being a leader or follower are just not helpful in discussion this specific functionality. Personally, I judge every feature by the usefulness within my community. I couldn’t care less, which company had it first or what the specific word for the feature is. It’s one click to change the word to a different one. 

[Neil2]

If you think the friend system is more suitable for your or other IPS site(s) than a user content subscription system, feel free to provide good reasons for it. Then we can discuss these points and weigh the pro’s and con’s. Maybe it would even be good to have both. 

But those general comments about the IPS company being a leader or follower are just not helpful in discussion this specific functionality. Personally, I judge every feature by the usefulness within my community. I couldn’t care less, which company had it first or what the specific word for the feature is. It’s one click to change the word to a different one. 

​I already did provide the one and main reason on why friend should not be even considered or changed to follower.

Are you a business using forum software just for business? Are you a leader of a cult where you need or want followers and not friends?

IPB is changing things that should not be changed just to follower other social medias thus leaving their roots of what IPB use to be.

 

I will reiterate and post again in this post as I already did: Anyway his point as well as a lot of folks including myself that is, IPB use to be a leading and cutting edge designer with forum software long before the other "social medias were even a thought", it was unique, different, and better laid out especially in the admin cp than all other forum software I have used and demoed, but the dramatic switch in the attempt to copy the face book, pay-pal, twitter, and what ever else there is out there, IPB is taking a step away from their unique design and have themselves turned into followers.

[opentype]

Are you a business using forum software just for business? Are you a leader of a cult where you need or want followers and not friends?

​You are misunderstanding what I mean with “good points”. We are talking about purely technical features here. “Following” (you could also call it Subscribing) in this technical sense means, you are notified about new activity from a user without his explicit approval. With a “friend system”, both parties agree to be friends first and then they can share friend-only content. Both of these methods can have pro’s and con’s for specific communities. I might want to follow what a certain IPS staff member is posting here because he might publish technical information, which help me maintain and improve my community – but I don’t necessarily want to have a “friendship status” with that staff member. I don’t even know him! I might not even like him! ;-)

On the other hand I might have friendships in an online community and might want to share stuff with them – like personal photos in a gallery for example. That can be an advantage of such a system and I asked you provide such reasons. Personally, I have the friendship system activated in my community, but it serves no specific purpose for my community. It doesn’t have any practical implications. It only shows the friends on the profile pages. There is no real benefit to it. If that’s different on your site, tell us and IPS!

But to reduce the technical feature of being automatically notified of someone else’s activity to a “cult” system is just not appropriate. It’s just a polemic way of arguing and will probably not convince IPS to reconsider. Good arguments might. 

[hmikko]

I have never allowed Friends feature on my site because in my opinion when I wanna add friends, I will add them in Facebook. Forum was more like place where strangers can have discussions. With IPS 4.0 Follow feature I defently will start using it.

And as I haven't used Friends feature, I don't know was it possible to receive notifications from friends actions as well. But one is sure - I like Follow feature.

[Andy Millne]

Friends is also in some way still possible (in gallery at least for now) using restricted albums. http://screencast.com/t/GKZ5oXr2

It's likely that this concept will be expanded to other apps over time.

Arguably the friends feature didn't really do anything in 3.x so you could say we've simply added a more useful followers functionality.

[sadel]

I prefer using the term "Friends" instead of "followers". For some reason for me using the term followers feels too serious

[ZakRhyno]

Friends is also in some way still possible (in gallery at least for now) using restricted albums. http://screencast.com/t/GKZ5oXr2

It's likely that this concept will be expanded to other apps over time.

Arguably the friends feature didn't really do anything in 3.x so you could say we've simply added a more useful followers functionality.

​Would it be better to have both in the system follower and friend. As one is more close to the person vs the follower. If the system was pretty weak in 3.x.x why not than enchance it to be better and build off it than just totally wipe it off. There are some things to think about before just reworking the world. 

I prefer using the term "Friends" instead of "followers". For some reason for me using the term followers feels too serious

​Correct the mindset of followers is of course different than friends.

[Woodsman]

As it sits Followers is spamming Notifications plain and simple.

As Friends we got notified when somebody either quoted you or liked what you had to say and they were easy to find.

Now on an average I get hit approximately 95 plus notifications a day "Can you spell SPAM?" Not to mention the emails I just delete now without bothering to read.

Friends do not need to be followers just because Twitter says so. But then again I delete that crap that loads up my email also without bothering to read let alone look at twice...

When the final comes out I hope there will be a way to remove the followers BS.... To follow another's topic or post by clicking on the Follow this button is one thing, to get blatantly spammed is another I can do without.

Now I am sure Opentype or Ralf whatever and a few others are going to jump in again trying to tell me why this is better for me because they prefer it and I should follow. But here is the problem he or they can't justify.... Are they paying for my licenses and renewals? Are they paying for anyone of my Domains? Are they Paying my Hosting? Are they paying for maintaining my equipment? Are they paying my Wages? If No, then who are they to tell me or anyone else to follow?

As I asked early on... When did Invision Power go from Leaders in this industry to Follower? Invision Power was here long before facebook and Twitter, and personally I feel we will still see them here breaking new boundaries long before Twitter or facebook even have a chance to follow....

Does anyone really think there would even be a facebook or Twitter if it was not for the beginnings of the forum boards?

Friends don't follow. They walk along side you.

Friends are not Yes Men. They can agree to disagree.

Friends won't follow you off a cliff. They will stop you.

Friends to Followers (Piffff) Just tell me where to remove it.

 

[esquire]

Friends is also in some way still possible (in gallery at least for now) using restricted albums. http://screencast.com/t/GKZ5oXr2

It's likely that this concept will be expanded to other apps over time.

Arguably the friends feature didn't really do anything in 3.x so you could say we've simply added a more useful followers functionality.

​I think many thought that IPS would go in the other direction - make sure that the Friends feature did something even more useful in IPS 4, not something totally different. If this private album concept in Gallery (like what Friends do) will be expanded over time to other modules, then I can't understand why you'd remove the Friends feature along with every Friends relationship that exists now. 

To prevent others from claiming I'm just here to rain on the parade, I'm honestly confused as to direction. It impacts my communities since "Friends" is a crucial element of how it works - even though IPB 3.x may not maximize its potential. Restricted Albums? Everyone understands the "Friends" concept from Facebook and other social sites. Users will almost never invest efforts educating themselves on how to create private album permission groups. Seriously....  When I asked about this on the beta site, I recall someone at IPS saying that they did not want to give users incentive to create private content, which would then not be visible to the rest of the community and in search engines. As a result, all content should be made public. I respectfully disagreed and accepted this for what it was. 

[Adriano Faria]

As it sits Followers is spamming Notifications plain and simple.

As Friends we got notified when somebody either quoted you or liked what you had to say and they were easy to find.

Now on an average I get hit approximately 95 plus notifications a day "Can you spell SPAM?" Not to mention the emails I just delete now without bothering to read.

Friends do not need to be followers just because Twitter says so. But then again I delete that crap that loads up my email also without bothering to read let alone look at twice...

When the final comes out I hope there will be a way to remove the followers BS.... To follow another's topic or post by clicking on the Follow this button is one thing, to get blatantly spammed is another I can do without.

Now I am sure Opentype or Ralf whatever and a few others are going to jump in again trying to tell me why this is better for me because they prefer it and I should follow. But here is the problem he or they can't justify.... Are they paying for my licenses and renewals? Are they paying for anyone of my Domains? Are they Paying my Hosting? Are they paying for maintaining my equipment? Are they paying my Wages? If No, then who are they to tell me or anyone else to follow?

As I asked early on... When did Invision Power go from Leaders in this industry to Follower? Invision Power was here long before facebook and Twitter, and personally I feel we will still see them here breaking new boundaries long before Twitter or facebook even have a chance to follow....

Does anyone really think there would even be a facebook or Twitter if it was not for the beginnings of the forum boards?

Friends don't follow. They walk along side you.

Friends are not Yes Men. They can agree to disagree.

Friends won't follow you off a cliff. They will stop you.

Friends to Followers (Piffff) Just tell me where to remove it.

 

Unfortunately they won't change it. If they remove notifications, guess what followers will become? Friends: "a mere list of people on your profile". That wouldn't make any sense to them. The only way today is to install this plugin http://community.invisionpower.com/files/file/7233-follow-member-extra-options/ and wait for the client center blows up with hundreds of tickets on it. Then it will change.

[craigf136]

That's why we need to keep telling IPS until they listen, that this system in it's current guise is nonsense. It needs a major overhaul before release (yes we have a plugin, but a plugin should not exist to erradicate a major flaw in the software).

Continue to receive numerous emails from a forum simply because I follow them, I'll mark the mail as spam, never to be seen again.

[Adriano Faria]

That's why we need to keep telling IPS until they listen, that this system in it's current guise is nonsense.

​I already did: http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/405010-followers-notification-x-real-followed-content-notification/

[chilihead]

So, if we convert friends to followers all of our users are going to start getting hundreds or unwanted emails? (for large forums)

And if we don't convert, it deletes the relationship, but the following function is still there so they can start from scratch?

Do I understand correctly? Would like to know before converting. So if you follow you always get an email? Or is that a setting, and if so, why not have it off for the converts?

Just trying to understand. 

[Adriano Faria]

So, if we convert friends to followers all of our users are going to start getting hundreds or unwanted emails? (for large forums)

And if we don't convert, it deletes the relationship, but the following function is still there so they can start from scratch?

​Yes, basically that's what will happen.

So if you follow you always get an email? Or is that a setting, and if so, why not have it off for the converts?

No setting! There's a notification that you can disable to stop it. BUT you also won't receive notifications for things you really want to follow, like forums, topics, files, images, etc.

[chilihead]

So if you follow someone you always get an email? I don't see the point of this. I could see a setting in New Content to just list your followers' content, and to enable email for certain people followed, but always getting an email... I think I will disable this.

Thanks for the heads up! That's a biggie.

[Woodsman]

Unfortunately they won't change it. If they remove notifications, guess what followers will become? Friends: "a mere list of people on your profile". That wouldn't make any sense to them. The only way today is to install this plugin http://community.invisionpower.com/files/file/7233-follow-member-extra-options/ and wait for the client center blows up with hundreds of tickets on it. Then it will change.

​Before I waste anymore time hiding Followers I will just find a way to remove it.... 3.4.X had notifications that worked.... Some people get to headstrong reinventing the wheel rather than improving on it.

[SJ77]

friend system vs. subscriber system

​I want both!