Kinda questionable IPB

[Bluto]

Providing that information to any user using the software, whether it be in the ACP, front-end, a member, admin, or general public, I would view as a violation of IPSs Privacy Policy.

http://www.invisionpower.com/legal/privacy

They're more than welcome to send me an email every day telling me my license is expired - confidential person to person - or have a notice in the IPS client area stating that the license has expired... but releasing / displaying information inside the script (which can't be removed without template modification) is the same as releasing information about me and my status as a customer.  Saying it's only viewable to admins of said expired forum isn't an excuse to transmit customer information to a 3rd party - ie a web server, shared host, or any third party which could intercept that information.

Honestly, I could care less about this because if I'm using my licenses they're up-to-date and if I've let my licenses lapse, then the license probably isn't being used on a active website.

[Richad]

What's next? Gigantic pop ups? I am not always in the position to renew all my licenses straightaway. No way I put up with this. Smells a lot like greed. Renew renew renew

 

only my opinion. Glad I know how to kill this message.

[Joel R]

It also uses up valuable real estate for admins, which is my concern.    

I can understand why IPS did what they did (and also believe that it's totally within their rights to do so), but I think a good compromise would be the ability to close or minimize the warning.  

 

[The Jimmo]

Long as it is dismiss-able and ONLY viewable to admins I don't have an issue with it. I think it is handy for other admins to be aware of this fact. I've been on plenty of forums where the actual owner has gone missing and the preceding admins have had to come together to get his attention on items. Not saying that it is common but it has happened more than once. 

Anywho, I think on the front-end is a little over the top if you cannot close/dismiss it.

[Lindy]

We don't disable the software upon expiration or otherwise force renewals like other software companies do, but we are drawing a stronger distinction between active and expired licenses. Continued use of the software does not negate the fact that it is being used in an expired state and the software will reflect that. 

This change was carried out for several reasons, but amongst them is the fact that not all admins login to the AdminCP every day and you'd be surprised how many customers contact us after their license expires and their community has loads of spam because the spam mitigation is disabled. A message on the front end lets all admins know the license is expired and services are no longer available. 

That said, we can certainly explore making the message less intrusive, though I would note it's only displayed to admins. 

I would also remind folks like @Adriano Faria that it's not recommended to encourage others to modify our licensing code. That's a slippery slope and will not be tolerated. 

 

[DesignzShop]

I don't agree with this at all..

 

Maybe I should be more specific here also. I do not agree with the fact others can see the expired information. The solution here of course is not to add other admins.

I don't agree with the front end either because of course it ruins a user experience but my main concern is others seeing the expired info because it's non of their business if I paid my bill and when. The software is in my name and I pay the bill, not them...

[Lindy]

In many, many cases - the person who pays the bills is not the one logging into the community every day. As I mentioned, many admins have no idea the license is expired until the community fills with spam, they try to get an update, contact us for support, etc. Many admins don't login to the AdminCP every day so they'd otherwise never know. 

Again, we're not crippling the software on expiration, but we are making it more evident that a license is expired. We recognize you don't agree with that and appreciate the feedback. As I said, we'll look into making it less intrusive. Unfortunately, there's no "primary admin" or other designator - an admin is an admin. 

[DesignzShop]

Your comments lead me to believe Lindy since even end-users log in more than admins in most cases then possibly they could be/are the next target or even moderators that would be told of my personal business. I hope not. At that point I personally would see an issue continuing to support IPB at all.

[Lindy]

I'm not sure how you arrived at that from my comments. There's no plan to extend the expiration warning to anyone beyond admins.

[RazorSEdge]

I would like to chime in here.  I have a transparent relationship with my staff.  They are always aware of what is paid, what license is active, what isn't active etc.  They are also aware of what services may not be working in those cases.  I prefer to have those notices in the ACP as it reinforces the need for community funding as I cannot afford all of our costs alone, and ad revenue from guest ads and our social media like YouTube is just now starting to make anything at all.

Now the change to the front end should maybe be linked to a cookie.  Say you can click a "dismiss notice" button but after 7 days it pops back up until you hit the dismiss notice button again.

I can see where someone might be concerned about privacy, but really, if you are a site owner/admin that communicates well with your staff there is really no issues.  There are many times that it is perfectly fine to let a license expire. There are alternatives to the Spam Prevention (although I recommend using IPS Spam Services as well as an alternative for safety in case one fails).  Also, if you have someone on staff or you yourself are knowledgeable and are not going to actively need support, etc.  and that is where communication with your staff is key and you won't have to worry about things like "So and so hasn't paid the bills" etc.  

[kotaco]

There is zero reason for this on the front end if it's only visible to Admins. Seeing it in the AdminCP is more than enough.
 

[kotaco]

We don't disable the software upon expiration or otherwise force renewals like other software companies do, but we are drawing a stronger distinction between active and expired licenses. Continued use of the software does not negate the fact that it is being used in an expired state and the software will reflect that. 

This change was carried out for several reasons, but amongst them is the fact that not all admins login to the AdminCP every day and you'd be surprised how many customers contact us after their license expires and their community has loads of spam because the spam mitigation is disabled. A message on the front end lets all admins know the license is expired and services are no longer available. 

That said, we can certainly explore making the message less intrusive, though I would note it's only displayed to admins. 

I would also remind folks like @Adriano Faria that it's not recommended to encourage others to modify our licensing code. That's a slippery slope and will not be tolerated. 

 

With it being as prominent as that one, I'm sure it'll happen on many boards regardless of any so called encouragement.

[Adriano Faria]

I would also remind folks like @Adriano Faria that it's not recommended to encourage others to modify our licensing code. That's a slippery slope and will not be tolerated.

​Sure. I haven't thought of that message/warning as part of the licensing code.

[Cyrem]

Why the actual hell are people losing their minds over this?

Seriously, like wow, I'm amazed.

Not to mention all the people floating off into fairy land over this, turning it into something it's not.

[sasiko]

considering there are people who choose not to continously update their license fee every 6 months but rather choose to update when theres big update or a feature the owner really wants.

Seeing the msg on front end is obstructing and distracting and unwarranted.

lindy you are starting to treat the owned ips license as a renting model and im quite concerned how this is going to end up in future

If customers complains so much about their anti spam isnt working then you should allow admins to dismiss the front end msg permanently or till next renewal has expired. If you dont plan to then do not use that as an excuse for introducing the front end notice

[craigf136]

simple fact of the matter is this.

I have bought the software with licence for support renewals for 6 months, irrespective of what IPS do or say about active licenses and support. I have bought 3.4.7 / 4.0.0 etc with support for a set period. If I no longer wish to obtain support, updates or anything like that, it has nothing to do with IPS.

The person who has purchased the software is the only person and I reiterate this point. "the only person" that should be seeing this message and not on the front end.

This is a bad business decision.

I've supported IPS since 2006 and I haven't always renewed but I generally have. Bottom line is this, IPS has no right to put anything on the front end (even only visible to me) that hinders my site when a licence has lapsed.

I would seriously consider my options with IPS and the community as a whole, if this message appeared once on the front end,

[wimg]

We don't disable the software upon expiration or otherwise force renewals like other software companies do, but we are drawing a stronger distinction between active and expired licenses. Continued use of the software does not negate the fact that it is being used in an expired state and the software will reflect that.

This change was carried out for several reasons, but amongst them is the fact that not all admins login to the AdminCP every day and you'd be surprised how many customers contact us after their license expires and their community has loads of spam because the spam mitigation is disabled. A message on the front end lets all admins know the license is expired and services are no longer available.

That said, we can certainly explore making the message less intrusive, though I would note it's only displayed to admins.

I would also remind folks like @Adriano Faria that it's not recommended to encourage others to modify our licensing code. That's a slippery slope and will not be tolerated.

 

​Lindy,

How is this part of the licensing code? You must be joking! I'll gladly leave Invision on the page showing who the supplier/developer is, no problem, but this is definitely a step too far. It almost sounds like: you can't do any skinning/theming/creatjing add-ons, as you will violate the licensing code and therefor the licensing agreement.

And your message is intimidating as well to be very honest.

Please reconsider, or make it an option that can be switched on and off, even if the default is on. There are many admins who do visit their ACP on a daily basis. And some do not act upon it immediately, for whatever reason. No need to force it upon everybody by definition. We are no toddlers anymore.

Kind regards, Wim

[AndyF]

I've not seen the message since a very early build so I'm unsure if its changed.

Having said that, as it seems some are unhappy with it on the "front end" how about a small compromise ?

Keep it on the front end but allow it to be minimized or dismissed. In either case it should then always re-appear / be expanded upon each new session / login. That way its not intrusive but its also not permanently out of sight either.

Just a random idea to try to find a compromise to keep everyone happy.

[wimg]

Hi Andy,

What about making it possible to set it to show or not with a setting in the ACP?

That's my suggestion. It's also a compromise.

That way it stays for those who do not visit the ACP or not often, and those who do, will be able to see it in the ACP, and switch off the view on the public pages.

Kind regards, Wim

[Lindy]

 

simple fact of the matter is this.

I have bought the software with licence for support renewals for 6 months, irrespective of what IPS do or say about active licenses and support. I have bought 3.4.7 / 4.0.0 etc with support for a set period. If I no longer wish to obtain support, updates or anything like that, it has nothing to do with IPS.

The person who has purchased the software is the only person and I reiterate this point. "the only person" that should be seeing this message and not on the front end.

This is a bad business decision.

I've supported IPS since 2006 and I haven't always renewed but I generally have. Bottom line is this, IPS has no right to put anything on the front end (even only visible to me) that hinders my site when a licence has lapsed.

I would seriously consider my options with IPS and the community as a whole, if this message appeared once on the front end,

I want to stress that we do appreciate your business but with all due respect, buying software is not like buying a tangible item - you do not own it, you are merely purchasing a license to use it. This would of course be much clearer to if we carried out licensing like many other companies in that, if you don't renew your license, you must cease use of the software. Certainly, that wouldn't be ideal, I presume?  

We're fairly transparent here - IPS is a business and renewals fund development - there's six full-time people dedicated to IPS4 alone. We haven't raised the base $25 renewal in over half a decade. We don't force you to stop using the software or force renewals. We do, however, intend on reinforcing the idea that renewals are not just for support, as you've noted. Part of this is via present and future value-adds such as the spam service and part of this is reminding you when your license is expired. 

Further, as I've mentioned, not all admins responsible for renewals login every day. In many business cases, some never login and otherwise never know unless and until another administrator notifies them. 

As I said, we'll look into a less intrusive manner of displaying this warning, possibly taking the suggestion to make it capable of being dismissed for a predefined period of time. I don't have any suggestions to solve the "privacy" aspect other than either renewing or not making others admins. If you don't want other admins seeing your site is not currently licensed, I'd suggest either renewing or not sharing admin permissions with others. 

 

 

[Dylan Riggs]

For my 0.02c for what it's worth. I have no problem seeing that message on the front end if it shows that my license is expired, as I honestly do not visit the ACP all too much. I simply do not have a need to do so.

However, I only upgrade based upon a community decision. For example, I haven't renewed yet from the past 6 months simply because I was waiting for 4.0, it was "right around the corner" and I felt that it was a bad business decision for me to spend the $100+ to renew all my apps for an EOL (end of life) version that is not going to have any drastic improvements or feature changes.

My point is, the message there is indirectly affecting the user experience of the admins (and the site owner) who has purchased your software, who may or may not of had legitimate reasons to not purchase renewals. I feel that keeping it as a friendly notification will still do what's needed and to get the point across to every admin that logs into the site and doesn't visit the ACP, but also allows them to carry on without *that* much frustration of always seeing a permanent message knowing that it's not in their business model to purchase 'renewals' on something that they don't need to renew currently.

That's how I feel about it, anyways. I do respect the reasoning why IPS has chosen to do what they're doing, it's not *that* big of a deal. It's an annoyance to some, maybe... but I just think that annoyance isn't completely justified without a consequence for the legitimate businesses that do not want to renew.

 

 

[craigf136]

 

I want to stress that we do appreciate your business but with all due respect, buying software is not like buying a tangible item - you do not own it, you are merely purchasing a license to use it. This would of course be much clearer to if we carried out licensing like many other companies in that, if you don't renew your license, you must cease use of the software. Certainly, that wouldn't be ideal, I presume?  

We're fairly transparent here - IPS is a business and renewals fund development - there's six full-time people dedicated to IPS4 alone. We haven't raised the base $25 renewal in over half a decade. We don't force you to stop using the software or force renewals. We do, however, intend on reinforcing the idea that renewals are not just for support, as you've noted. Part of this is via present and future value-adds such as the spam service and part of this is reminding you when your license is expired. 

Further, as I've mentioned, not all admins responsible for renewals login every day. In many business cases, some never login and otherwise never know unless and until another administrator notifies them. 

As I said, we'll look into a less intrusive manner of displaying this warning, possibly taking the suggestion to make it capable of being dismissed for a predefined period of time. I don't have any suggestions to solve the "privacy" aspect other than either renewing or not making others admins. If you don't want other admins seeing your site is not currently licensed, I'd suggest either renewing or not sharing admin permissions with others. 

 

 

​Hi Lindy thanks for the response and clarifications.

However, an unlicensed site is not "unlicensed" in it's current format. It has simply not renewed the license to obtain support and updates. That's the big difference here. It is still licensed and you cannot show a message saying the following.

(copied from bug report) http://community.invisionpower.com/4bugtrack/no-ability-to-disable-your-license-has-expired-notice-at-front-end-r1153/

That is saying we are running an unlicensed site, which is not the case - if it was the case, I'm pretty certain IPS would take the relevant action (I would).

The initial purchase allows the buyer to run the software (at the time of purchase and at the end of the 6 months period of support, in the version that existed). After that time, the buyer can run the suite in that version for however long they wish to run it - without the need to renew. That will still be the case - unless that's changing.

Lets look at the vBulletin 5 suite, you buy that version. That gives you support for that version, 1 month ticket support and free forum support for life. Not that much different from 6 months of support, free forum support on IPS. Not intrusive message on the front end (that I'm aware of) - when support via ticket is not taken after 1 month.

Xenforo will give you 12 months of support from initial purchase and then you can extend for 12 months for $40.

These are both IPS's major competition and neither have a front end message when the support aspect of the licence is no longer active.

Lets be honest about this, the license for IPS is still active. The only thing that may not be active here, is the support and updates/additional features.

That doesn't require a front end message.

For me, $75 every 6 months is not a lot of money to be paying too renew support/updates but for some that take the entire suite, that's a lot to raise.On top of the of the domain name renewals, hosting packages, other services that may subscribe too. That's $150 every year, which in the grand scheme of things is a heck of a lot of money just to obtain support / updates / spam monitoring.

 

 

[jackflash]

I don't mind the idea of having a notice on the front end that's visible to admins - maybe something that shows every x-amount of days or whatever would accommodate those opposed?

As more tools are available to manage the front from the front end, I can see where a lot of people won't log into the admin panel as often.

[wimg]

 

I want to stress that we do appreciate your business but with all due respect, buying software is not like buying a tangible item - you do not own it, you are merely purchasing a license to use it. This would of course be much clearer to if we carried out licensing like many other companies in that, if you don't renew your license, you must cease use of the software. Certainly, that wouldn't be ideal, I presume?

We're fairly transparent here - IPS is a business and renewals fund development - there's six full-time people dedicated to IPS4 alone. We haven't raised the base $25 renewal in over half a decade. We don't force you to stop using the software or force renewals. We do, however, intend on reinforcing the idea that renewals are not just for support, as you've noted. Part of this is via present and future value-adds such as the spam service and part of this is reminding you when your license is expired.

Further, as I've mentioned, not all admins responsible for renewals login every day. In many business cases, some never login and otherwise never know unless and until another administrator notifies them.

As I said, we'll look into a less intrusive manner of displaying this warning, possibly taking the suggestion to make it capable of being dismissed for a predefined period of time. I don't have any suggestions to solve the "privacy" aspect other than either renewing or not making others admins. If you don't want other admins seeing your site is not currently licensed, I'd suggest either renewing or not sharing admin permissions with others.

 

 

​One may not own software when buying it, but either you adopt a model like Microsoft, or Adobe, and announce it with a transition time, or you don't and keep it as is. If you really want to go that route, fine, but please maintain an option to buy a software license without a mandatory 6 months or 1 year licensing option, as Microsoft provides - they still have both options available. I only buy the option that does not expire: my business depends on it.

As craigf136 says higher up, the software is licensed, all that has happened is that support has expired. So please, do remove that message, change the wording and make it possible to switch it off on the front end. No other software supplier I know does it this way, and I understand why.

You already limit options when a license, or rather, support, is not renewed, like many suppliers out there. I think that is sufficient warning, and if it isn't to some, it is their problem, not yours or mine for that matter. Occasionally I am not able to timely renew, so I have added funds to my account here for automatic renewal, with the exception of one license, which has lapsed occasionally for a few days, but in the end it is my choice and my responsibility, not that of Invision.

It is a matter of principle.

Kind regards, Wim

[Bluto]

Maybe this notice could be added below the IPS copyright / license notice in the footer of most sites - the "license expired" notice only being viewable to admins?

IMHO I think handling this through email from IPS (one email a week from IPS) to the license holder is a more appropriate solution then any notices in the software.