Kinda questionable IPB

[Izaya Orihara]

​I disagree and I have not seen such. Anyone that hasn't used a product has a right to complain about a product or service. Besides a few people that were wow'ed about this, it's been all IPB users (active license and not).

​How do you have a right to complain about a product that you

A. Never used

B. Know little to nothing about

C. Have little to no intention to use?

I don't buy Android products. I don't have the right to start complaining about Android  when I have no intention of using the product ever. That's me basically just jumping into something that has nothing to do with me.

[Makoto]

I already said we see the points made and we're going to compromise - it often seems if there's no immediate action, it appears as if we don't listen. 

Allow me to clarify further with specifics. We're going to make the bar smaller and less intrusive and allow you to dismiss it -- most likely for two weeks at a time. 

I hope that helps alleviate some of the concern and it's considered a reasonable compromise. ​

I honestly misread the second part of your post because I was more focused on the first sentence in your response, which is why I edited my post after. Sorry for that.

If you would remove the message from the front-end entirely (even if it's only after the message is dimissed the first time) then only had the message reappear in the AdminCP every two weeks, I think I would be fine with that personally and I believe that would make it feel much less like nagware.

You would have to acknowledge that this is almost purely a marketing decision as well though, as saying it's a feature because people don't realize when their license has expired doesn't make sense. They would know their license has expired after they dismiss the message the first time.

I don't buy Android products. I don't have the right to start complaining about Android  when I have no intention of using the product ever. That's me basically just jumping into something that has nothing to do with me.

This is kind of off-topic, but you certainly have the right to have an opinion on the decisions a company makes, regardless of if you use their services or not.

[Lindy]

No problem, Kirito. We're likely not going to remove either message entirely - but as I said, our compromise is the ability to dismiss it (on the front end) for a period of time. 

I never denied the decision wasn't at least partially business driven. It's no secret we are a for-profit company and people do expect to get paid for their work. Those posting here are generally more power users and the buck stops with them in terms of their communities. Power users will undoubtedly find a way to remove it and we're not really prepared to expressly forbid that (but we're not going to entertain the conversation here, as mentioned.)  In the big picture, the person paying the bills on a business site is almost never the person logging into the site every day. If I had a dollar for every "I didn't realize Jane Doe didn't renew the license" - I wouldn't be here having this conversation.  Further, not all admins regularly login to the AdminCP. I personally go weeks without ever logging into the ACP here - others deal with validating members and day to day admin tasks. 

You've pointed out the message is too in your face and I've listened. It's not going to go away entirely, but a fair enough point has been made that it doesn't serve a purpose being in your face on every page load, so we'll make it smaller and let you dismiss it every two weeks or so. 

[Makoto]

I think that's a perfectly fair compromise, and I respect and appreciate your stance on the matter regarding power users here.

Thank you again for your prompt response and clarification.

[Warzone]

just a suggestion, maybe make it like "cookie" message(at the bottom of the page, with abit transparent kind of look), you can either close it, buy, or renew... 
Like EU, we need to have some sort of "info" telling visitors that the website is using cookies  nom nom nom, i would loooove me some cookies right now  



 

[Misi]

As I mentioned, many admins have no idea the license is expired until the community fills with spam, they try to get an update, contact us for support, etc. Many admins don't login to the AdminCP every day so they'd otherwise never know. 

Again, we're not crippling the software on expiration, but we are making it more evident that a license is expired.

​Don't they have an email from IPS reminding them that a renewal is due?

[Breadfan]

IF there's an option (without having to edit template) to permamently disable this notice on the front-end, then I don't have any problems with it.

IF this can't be done and the message pops up on its own every now and then on the front end of the forum, then, to me, this would be an issue.

[CheersnGears]

​That is not accurate. There is already spam mitigation and there are more hybrid-hosted services coming that will only be active with an active license. While many renew for support, that is not what the renewal is for -- the fact that's being overlooked is one of the purposes of the message. 

 

​Again, I think it is simply semantics.  I consider the spam mitigation as part of the support I get.  It would be similar to anti-virus software where the software doesn't stop working after the license expires, but the definition updates no longer come down so I won't be protected from new threats. 

I think the whole reason this thread was started was because the definitions haven't been clear.  If I stop renewing support, my license to use the software does not expire and I can keep my site running indefinitely in theory.  

For sanity and clarity's sake, I think IPS should separate and better define the software side (the actual program) and the services (support/spam mitigation/hybrid hosting/chat) side of the license to avoid confusion like this.  Simply changing the wording to say "Your support/services/whatever license has expired..." would alleviate most of this.   Maybe "support license" isn't the correct term, but there can be wording that makes a clearer difference so that it doesn't look like the notice is about software piracy.   I don't think there would need to be a policy change, just a wording change.

[jackflash]

​That is not accurate. There is already spam mitigation and there are more hybrid-hosted services coming that will only be active with an active license. While many renew for support, that is not what the renewal is for -- the fact that's being overlooked is one of the purposes of the message. 

 

​I think many may have missed part of Lindy's point > when the license expires, people will lose services and wonder why?  

At any rate, a compromise is in order.

[Flitterkill]

Glad the message is dismissable.

Have you considered just throwing a red fa-exclamation-circle next to the other font awesome icons next to the pm and notification icons?

[Izaya Orihara]

Reading the replies in the TAZ thread is just...sigh. There's vocalizing your opinion and just being straight up nasty and disrespectful...especially for a product most of them have no stake in nor use. I do find it laughable someone is literally leaving the platform because of this notice situation XD

I like Charles response though. If you are willing to leave over that(Despite giving praises over IPB4 just recently), then there really is nothing they can do. It's a shame that this of course had to mar the IPB 4 experience even more so. But on the flipside, I really hope there are no other 'slip-ups' leading up to 4.

[Hexsplosions]

They say a picture paints a thousand words?

Yes.

[Makoto]

I don't think repeatedly mocking what The Admin Zone community says or does will somehow further this discussion in any productive manner. It's just becoming annoying at this point. This is IPS, not TAZ.

Some of the replies to the topic you are repeatedly referencing on TAZ are completely reasonable, others not so. Kind of like the replies in this thread here.

[xtech]

I am an IP customer and i find IP is trying to squeeze every penny they can to customers. First they terminated the perpetual licenses, then they increased copyright removal fees by 80%, now they bug users out who do not renew their software (and users have the right to do so). 

 

I think this nag message is a gross intrusion on privacy, you have the right to put it, but it will damage company reputation.

 

I am getting quite sick of IP moves. IPB 4 should have been released one year ago, our communities are losing competitivity each day, but you are quite worried in increasing cash flow. Quality-price is decreasin sharply and competition has not stopped. Now you have nag messages, and i bet you will invent something more.

 

I am an ip customer, but i am almost sure i won't be using ips for future projects. Sorry. You were not like this in the past, time to break up for me.

[TheSonic]

It's a fair deal.

If i keep the licenses updated and paid, i get all the extra options and if not, i am still able to use the software, but lose the hosted services.

This was clear for a decade....Don't know, why this pops up this way.

Because of the message in the frontend?!...Ok, Admins see it and Lindy said, we can dismiss it from time to time.... The only point i would feel bad is, my users would see messages, that i am using a illegal copy of the software (or just not renewed - thats MY decission)... But  thats not the case... So....?! All fine for me

[Izaya Orihara]

Wonders what the next big deal will be in 2015 lol...

 I think what bothered me about this whole thing is the fact that it went from the notice being visible ONLY to admins to people starting to jump to conclusions that suddenly IPS is going to make it visible to all members. There is a lot of panic going around for no reason which has gotten many people here on IPS, there on TAZ, and other places where this was spread worried. Hence why I referenced the post because I want to make sure people are aware that everything you read on other forums is not accurate ‌@Kirito

Any damage to the reputation is likely come from people making a mountain of a molehill and spreading this around. I don't think anyone who is truly interested in this product is going to sit here and say "Well I love the features. It's better than everything else. But they have that pesky little announcement so I am not going to buy a license."

[Jυra]

​How do you have a right to complain about a product that you

A. Never used

B. Know little to nothing about

C. Have little to no intention to use

I know this is a bit literal, but many countries don't have laws against people doing research or forming conclusions based on information. At least not directly... People have the right and just because someone hasn't purchased doesn't mean they know little about it. 

[DudeThatsErin]

I find this ridiculous that this notice is going to appear. I don't want to be "forced" to renew my license. I login to my ACP regularly yet, I am punished because there are some of you that don't? Seriously?

If I upgrade to 4, I'm going to have to dismiss this notice practically every time I visit my website. Is this notice going to be mobile friendly? If so, then it will be 10x more annoying.

I login to my website regularly for now but once the college semester starts (next week) I'll be visiting less frequently (once a week, once every 2 weeks) so, yes, I will have to dismiss this notice practically every single time I visit my site. That is annoying and unacceptable for a software. You don't see vB, Xenforo, MyBB, phpBB, or anyone else posting notices about how "if you don't do this then you won't get these amazing features" when they aren't so amazing.

Just like someone posted earlier, renewing costs a lot of money. Personally, I only have IP.Downloads & the forum so it won't cost nearly as much for me as it would for people with the whole suite. You figure there is this software (about $35 for renewal), hosting, domain renewals, addons/plugins/hooks that are paid and need to be renewed, and everything. That could turn out to be $150 total per year. Who has this kind of money? For people with the whole suite it could be $300+ total yearly depending on their setup.

Basically, what IPS is saying is they want to annoy you into renewing to get this stupid message off of your screen. So, they want to take at least $75 out of your pocket just for this message. It's stupid.

Yes, I've read the posts on TAZ (participated as well) and seen that we can edit the code but there are admins like myself who are awful at taking backups (I admit it) and then don't want to mess with the code for fear that they will break the forum and have to revert back to a backup from 2 weeks to 1 month ago (or even longer, yes, I am bad!). Yet, I login to my ACP so I will see the message that will display there as well.

I understand why IPS has done this, money money money (what other reason could there be? You can say whatever you want but it always comes down to MONEY) but that doesn't excuse how annoying it is.

Yes, I was the one on TAZ that was leaving due to this issue but I think I will settle (if my license doesn't sell) with staying on 3.4.7 for as long as possible. My co-admin and I agree that this would be the best choice for our forum if the license doesn't sell and I'm not able to move to a Xenforo + WP install.

What could make me upgrade?

A. Remove it but since it is already stated, move to plan B.

B. Make it dismissible for 1-2 months and only attached to the site owner for viewing.

C. Do B and then also send an email once a week (or day, I don't care when it comes to emails) that my license needs to be renewed.

D. Do A and then the last half of C.

If y'all don't do any of those, well, you lost my business and I won't be renewing when I'm due in Feb.

Some of y'all may think this is a ridiculous thing to leave over but it isn't to me. I don't want to be annoyed when visiting MY OWN WEBSITE. I'm fine when it comes to other people's website because it isn't mine and they control everything but when it comes to my own website, I don't want to be annoyed about anything because I shouldn't have to. I should have full control without having to worry about breaking my site because of a notice that is only there so IPS can collect their renewal money that they obviously rely on too much.

[xert77]

I personally think that enforcing things like this on the front end is a negative thing. Admins shouldn't be able to view this, it would be better if it only showed it to selected people, people who you pick when you upgrade "owners" not "admins".

When you start pushing things like this into peoples faces. "you have not renewed, renew" it makes me wanna say hell no. I don't like being told what to do, and I know when my subscription runs out because I get e-mails and it says it in the backend. I also know what benefits renewing gives too.

This has probably sealed the deal on upgrading to 4.0, i dont think i will bother.

Also using software from other people in the past, they also had renew every 6 or 12 months but to encourage people to renew they would release more updates & more features to the software on a 3-6 month cycle. They wouldn't annoy people by shoving a message on the front end, disrupting the look of the website & notifying staff about it who don't even own the website.

I mean am I wrong? We payed a lot of money for the original payment & I have renewed since then also. Why should I have a message directly on the front end for renewal if I don't need support & there's no updates that have been added, or don't care too much about the spam thing. It is the laziest way to try and get people to renew.

(BTW I love your support, your support is one of the best supports I have ever dealt with & this is not a personal attack. I just think this is unnecessary, I know you say we are licensing the software but the software is a lot of money for communities like ours & we already have a link back to here. What will be next, if I had known you guys could just change the software for non renewed users & display stuff like this, I would have strongly considered other softwares. For the first purchase price I feel like I should at least own something, maybe I am just naive.)

[Lindy]

I would encourage you to see the end result based on the feedback here before getting further up in arms. At a minimum, it will be less intrusive and dismissable for a period of time. 

Further, contrary to baffling interpretations in the topic, I never said it was against the license agreement to remove the notice from the theme altogether - I merely said we are not discussing it here and I feel that's reasonable. 

I'm sorry this has caused folks to get all worked up over something as seemingly harmless as a renewal reminder. 

[Izaya Orihara]

I know this is a bit literal, but many countries don't have laws against people doing research or forming conclusions based on information. At least not directly... People have the right and just because someone hasn't purchased doesn't mean they know little about it.

​I can give you that. Freedom and speech and all. But it's one thing to say what you have to say. It's another thing to literally start bashing and attacking a company and just being classless and rude about it(See that thread). The reason I said what I said was not so much people shouldn't complain....But why are you complaining if you have never used the product or never had any type of issue with. When the vast majority of the people in that thread are not IPS customers or potential IPS customers and they are the ones complaining louder than the actual customers who DO have a valid reason...yes there is something wrong with that picture and I don't think it is valid. And it's not just IPB that it is done with.

I'd hope people would have better things to do with their time than sitting around blindly bashing a product. Leave feedback...which is fine. Making assumptions about a company's motive, the head honcho's motive, and the state of the company/product and spreading false lies(example: People were saying that there is a $15 charge everytime you want to change your domain name which set off a panic. Instead of accurately explaining the charge and why it is there)  is not okay and just like we should not accept IPS doing the notice thing, we shouldn't hide behind the excuse to incite panic and outrage because "we have the right to say what we want.."

[craigf136]

I think looking back on the whle subject, the actual message and what will happen / could happen wasn't communicated clearly and I may have jumped on IPS for being too intrusive for which I apologise.

Let's face it, the message in it's current guise is.

Although upon listening too feedback, IPS have taken it on board and will make the message less intrusive, that it can be disable for 2 weeks and it shows that they are listening to their clients. For which they must be applauded on

My only criticism, is that it came across that we (clients) took it overboard and became theatrical about it, yet IPS never came out and said "sorry" for the misunderstanding, this is how it is but went into defence mode (my perception).

Regarding the fair compromise, in all honesty, it is a step in a the right direction I still don't think it's a "fair" compromise. I think a truly fair compromise would be the ability to switch the message on or off in the ACP. Then it is a choice to have the message appear on the front end to remind us that we have not renewed the licence, it has now ceased and the following services will no longer work without renewal.

I for one would probably activate it in case I hadn't responded to one of the several emails reminding me about the licence but it's my choice to have it, dismissing it is a step in the right direction but an on / off solution is the truly fair compromise.

[Andrej]

Another idea would be to link the notice with the 'Can view and manage license data' Admin CP permission. Those who do not have the permission to view the license data, would not see the renewal reminder. Although this is more or less the same as the proposal for a on/off-switch. 

[Lindy]

Another idea would be to link the notice with the 'Can view and manage license data' Admin CP permission. Those who do not have the permission to view the license data, would not see the renewal reminder. Although this is more or less the same as the proposal for a on/off-switch. 

 

I don't think a setting is necessary to be honest -- power users are the most likely to see the reminder banner and not renew, so it stands to reason a self-sufficient power user will be able to quickly work around removing it from the theme if they deem it too intrusive after being dismissed. 

 

With that said, I like your idea of tying it to the license key permission and will look into that for those concerned about privacy - thanks for the suggestion.

This is the current/revised rendition that can be dismissed.

​

[Flitterkill]

That looks a lot better. Reading that, are we losing the free 5 person chat with 4.0? Seems to imply that.