Marketplace is available with the active licence only

[CP]

Nice ride Lindy!  

[RPG-support]

Dad, I simply wanted this: 

instead of this:

when I was starting the topic.

[RevengeFNF]

At the moment that you say that members without a license should be able to buy apps from the marketplace, this was destiny to go no where... So, pirates that don't give 1 cent to Invision, should be allow to enter here, go to market, and buy apps? 

PS: A guy that do not want to pay for IPS, will also pirate apps.

[Aiwa]

We're beyond the discussion of pirates... Let's get back on topic of how more developers can be attracted to the platform.  

@CalvinK made a great point

1 hour ago, CalvinK said:

And I don't particularly think it is fair for paying customers to be subsidising a developer's licence when they will be using that licence to generate income for themself. Every other developer here has made that initial investment.

What ideas can we throw at IPS about how to make a development license that doesn't result in the above.  And how do you determine who qualifies for a development license?

[RevengeFNF]

One thing... A developer without a normal license means that he does not use Invision for anything... Means that he makes an app and after we pay for it there is a big possibility of he never update the app again.

[CalvinK]

3 minutes ago, RevengeFNF said:

One thing... A developer without a normal license means that he does not use Invision for anything... Means that he makes an app and after we pay for it there is a big possibility of he never update the app again.

This is one thing I also meant to add. There is also the point that if they have not got a licence they cannot apply updates as fast as developers with active licences can. Even more importantly, a developer who uses the software will know how it works better than someone who does not use it.

[Lindy]

4 minutes ago, CalvinK said:

This is one thing I also meant to add. There is also the point that if they have not got a licence they cannot apply updates as fast as developers with active licences can. Even more importantly, a developer who uses the software will know how it works better than someone who does not use it.

That's actually a problem with current developers who let their license lapse. They're not developing on the latest releases and the clients end up suffering. I've considered requiring an active license to participate in the marketplace, but I'm one to pick my battles. 

[RevengeFNF]

Exactly... Our third party developers here, they all have sites using Invision Suite. They have many members using their sites, and they know exactly how the suite works.

A developer that never had a IPS site, he does not make a simple idea on how this work. The quality of the app's will decrease a lot. Also, those kind of developers just want money, they do not sympathize with Invision community.

[CalvinK]

Just now, Lindy said:

That's actually a problem with current developers who let their license lapse. They're not developing on the latest releases. I've considered requiring an active license to participate in the marketplace, but I'm one to pick my battles. 

One step at a time, Lindy

I definitely wouldn't be against that - for the reasons I suggest, but I guess that it is beneficial for those who have got plugins already for them to be updated (especially if the update from IPS is only a minor update).

[Joel R]

3 hours ago, Lindy said:

Most select a few plugins, apps and install a new theme. Those who install *.* from the marketplace generally find their life to get pretty miserable pretty quickly. It's akin to going to an auto parts store like AutoZone and putting the entire accessories aisle in your cart. Ultimately, your car is going to end up like:

It seems that's what you're going for in this topic and refinement is probably the last word I'd use to describe it.  

I'm kidding of course, but the loose comparison stands. More != better

I think Lindy just trolled the entire Marketplace with a meme?  

[Lindy]

16 minutes ago, Joel R said:

I think Lindy just trolled the entire Marketplace with a meme?  

Only those that want to install the entire Marketplace. 

[Claire Field]

5 hours ago, CalvinK said:

People aren't choosing to use PHPBB or other free software because of the plugins. They are using it simply because it is free.

Not entirely true - I worked with one person recently who chose SMF in favour of IPS because specific plugins worked better for their site and they wanted bridges and SSO with fanfic software, WP and their forum software. That is very specific, I know (just one person!), I am just saying, I don't think that cost is the only reason people choose open source/free.

[CalvinK]

1 hour ago, Claire Field said:

Not entirely true - I worked with one person recently who chose SMF in favour of IPS because specific plugins worked better for their site and they wanted bridges and SSO with fanfic software, WP and their forum software. That is very specific, I know (just one person!), I am just saying, I don't think that cost is the only reason people choose open source/free.

I take your point. I think it is certainly a factor for many websites though.

[Morrigan]

1 hour ago, Lindy said:

Only those that want to install the entire Marketplace. 

What do you consider the entire marketplace? 10 plugins? 20? 50? I mean I have so many I don't even remember anymore. They all just add features. The few that are important are ones that are likely being considered for core integration in the future.

As for other (free) alternatives. I can say that for sure there is a difference in quality and time invested. The developers here have money invested in making money and therefore are more diligent about their mods and upgrading them. I've seen mods that are in high demand go to the wayside for many free projects because they are not invested in it.

[Aiwa]

17 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

I've seen mods that are in high demand go to the wayside for many free projects because they are not invested in it.

Shoutbox.....

[Joey_M]

I think people are forgetting that if this happens, then it's likely we will see another community form which will offer a marketplace and support - it's something I have only thought about in hindsight. Who remembers Invisionize?

This idea solves nothing, it just deters people from this community and would encourage someone else to offer it.

I also fail to see how it remotely help avoid piracy, does anyone actually believe it will?

I'll lay a crazy bet that some people will share the items regardless, keeping licences active just to get hold of the content - paying for an application solely to upload to one of those pirate communities that exist and all whilst the general loyal client has lost interest in making purchases. As I feel it would greatly deter people because if you don't keep your licence active, you won't be looking for enchantments and if people are making less purchases - what happens then?

I've seen tones of people come and go over the years, some very talented developers but who would code something to only see a small portion of purchases?

Whereas keeping it open means that you are encouraging all.

Productivity isn't amazing around here as it is, nor can IPS afford to lose any of the third-party developers that allows people like myself to make my communities unique.

However, anyone clearly against this must never purchase plugins/applications or themes and must therefore be a stupid pirate.

[Lindy]

14 minutes ago, Joey_M said:

I think people are forgetting that if this happens, then it's likely we will see another community form which will offer a marketplace and support - it's something I have only thought about in hindsight. Who remembers Invisionize?

This idea solves nothing, it just deters people from this community and would encourage someone else to offer it.

I also fail to see how it remotely helps avoid piracy, does anyone actually believe it will?

I'll lay a crazy bet that some people will share the items regardless, keeping licences active just to get hold of the content - paying for an application solely to upload to one of those pirate communities that exist and all whilst the general loyal client has lost interest in making purchases. As I feel it would greatly deter people because if you don't keep your licence active, you won't be looking for enchantments and if people are making less purchases - what happens then?

I've seen tones of people come and go over the years, some very talented developers but who would code something to only see a small portion or purchases?

Whereas keeping it open means that you are encouraging all.

Productivity isn't amazing around here as it is, nor can IPS afford to lose any of the third-party developers that allows people like myself to make my communities unique.

However, anyone clearly against this must never purchase plugins/applications or themes and must therefore be a stupid pirate.

I think you're confused. People with expired licenses can download from the marketplace. That's not changed and will not change. People who have never had a license cannot download from the marketplace. That's not changed and will not change. The suggestion here was to open the marketplace so anyone, even without a license, could submit resources to the marketplace. That's not happening either. So really, nothing is changing other than if we can ever figure out a way to effectively do it, we may offer a developer license. 

 

 

[Morrigan]

I'll throw my hat in for a developer license suggestion. I still think there should be an investment. Even if it's 50% of the price and unusable as an actual community suite. The stipulation is that within X amount of time (determined by IPS and possibly the purchasing developer) there is a modification created and submitted to the marketplace. Renewals and whatnot I wouldn't know but active/maintained mods is the key factor. If, after 3-6 months there are multiple "broken" reports and no action (which TBH 3-6 months is obscene if we are talking paid mods here) then their developer license expires and they have to reapply and likely re-pay the initial developer costs.

Something that incites a developer to keep their mods updated would be key in my honest opinion (aka discounts on renewals, advanced bug reporting etc). As a very novice developer I will say that the license is never my problem. I have other developer hitches.

 

[Joey_M]

4 hours ago, Lindy said:

I think you're confused. People with expired licenses can download from the marketplace. That's not changed and will not change. People who have never had a license cannot download from the marketplace. That's not changed and will not change. The suggestion here was to open the marketplace so anyone, even without a license, could submit resources to the marketplace. That's not happening either. So really, nothing is changing other than if we can ever figure out a way to effectively do it, we may offer a developer license. 

Ah okay, I think some (like I had) may be going off the majority nonsensical posts by certain someone though.

I retract my comments.

[IPBWI.com Matthias Reuter]

On 9.6.2016 at 11:41 PM, Lindy said:

That's actually a problem with current developers who let their license lapse. They're not developing on the latest releases and the clients end up suffering. I've considered requiring an active license to participate in the marketplace, but I'm one to pick my battles. 

I've started using IPB since v2. Remember? What a shiny, polished software

Since v2, there was a long run until v4.1 we have today. From a developer standpoint, I can say that IPS has the best community software on market but unfortunately with one of the smallest audience for addon developers. This small audience actually has disadvantages, as there is a market for several features, but this market is too small to monetarize developing effort to fulfill needs. We are talking about

• initial development effort up to hundreds of hours
• maintenance effort when IPS decides to break backward compatibility
• new free features to give customers a benefit for renewals
• maintenance for new features
• support when wild bugs occur or a customer fails with installation / configuration

Many customers expect a bunch of features for initial release of an addon, but don't allow the author to grow on purchases and reinvest into new features step-by-step. That's why we have so much small extensions without any grow, unsolved bugs and bad support - a developer cannot afford best premium support for 3x 10€ purchases. Yearly IPS license renewal costs are higher than this.

I'm quite sure that "small audience handbrake" was the original intention of @RPG-support. I've reviewed the translation packages he is offering and I understand these high prices for the qualitiy he offers. Just imagine the audience would be 10-100 times bigger, the prices for addons could be reduced by half for sure with same or even higher quality.

Apart from the value of actual addons and their prices, the amount of addons should increase to allow a bigger audience consider using IPS and paying the entrance fee. I've build several plugins for WordPress/WooCommerce, like a payment plugin and an order export plugin and built customer's sites based on WordPress. It just makes sense using that CMS as it allows to fulfill customer's desire with a very small budget while allowing to grow with the customer and replace scrap free plugins with custom code or premium paid plugins. Most of the WordPress addons actually are crap, but for example, an addon like IP.pages would be sorted into the "semi-sized well done"-plugins category if built for WordPress.

So how could we help IPS to grow and how could IPS support community doing this?

What could IPS customers do:

• if there is a common desire, IPS users should just hire developers out here for a reasonable price. Give professional third parties money and you'll give them a jump start into developing for IPS eco system. Don't think cheap. You get what you paid for. If you want a custom feature or a premium addon, you should be able pay what it costs and not what you think it's the value. If your business model does not allow paying high prices for high quality, don't complain about that, change your business model.

What could Third Party Devs do:

• Be reliable. Show the world that your customers can count on you. They want to save time, so show that you are a time saver. Give proper instructions on how to use your extension, try to be better in documentation than IPS.

What could IPS do:

• Worship your Third Party Devs. Currently, we have no achievement program, no trusted seal, no cross-marketing, no competitions, no incentives, no discounts, no chat pool with developers, no proper documentation, no guides for the entire framework mechanics etc. Instead of starting to worship a few trustworthy developers, currently IPS is worshipping none of the third party developers. There is absolutely no encouragement from IPS to motivate new or existing third party devs to contribute.
• Increase social media activities: Amount of followers is too small to allow you some marketing with impact there. You are just not present and it feels it's not important for you that you've got followed. How could you increase attention for new third party addons when there is rarely attention for your own posts outside IPS ecosystem?
• I understand that IPS software suite is intended to unleash it's full power when combined together. That could have been the reason why you want to avoid to release a part for free and open source to get more attention and a bigger audience out there. But that could be a chance: You may want to consider developing some product which would have a need on free market, but would give new users awareness about your portfolio.

To make it clear: I am very happy with the marketplace being not available for non-license holders. An open marketplace or directory makes sense for an open software, but not for an enterprise solution. But I just want to show, that it's wrong to say: "If you don't want to pay for enterprise, just go to the humble free softwares out there, like WordPress". I know WordPress. I've customers with 4-5 digits yearly budgets, running very good on WordPress and love to use that CMS from prototype to enterprise solutions - all possible with WordPress. The disadvantage in IP.board is, there is no cheap prototyping possible. You can't just start with a new project and a small budget and a couple of free plugins and see how it goes and if it's successful, re-invest earnings.

There is no extrinsic motivation right now to develop addons for free for IPS ecosystem. Amount of customization orders is too low to live from that, reputation has too small impact and it's a mess to invest weeks and weeks to get really known with all framework possibilities without proper documentation. More worse: Even non-free addons will not fully pay the rent.

While in WordPress ecosystem, startups grow and venture capitals invest while I'm writing this, there is a deep silence when comparing to IPS. WordPress just have bought Woothemes because of their famous WooCommerce addon. Again: an open source software company has just bought another open source company which has built a famous addon. Wow. And now, honestly, we all need us to ask, why this could not happen within IPS ecosystem.

Sorry for the long post, here's a potato smashing your car-analogies.

[RPG-support]

1 hour ago, IPBWI.com Matthias Reuter said:

I'm quite sure that "small audience handbrake" was the original intention of @RPG-support.

I wanted to purchase Mazda 6 as said above. But the IP company is not allowing indirectly to do this. They are not including the secret mark into their code to catch and ban some known customers/Marketplace_developers who are nulling and distrubuting their software for free. Instead there is the entrance fee to the Marketplace for the developers and strong opinion that if there is no licence and you are developing for the IP Suite then you are the pirate. But if to speak in general then you are right.

1 hour ago, IPBWI.com Matthias Reuter said:

I've reviewed the translation packages he is offering and I understand these high prices for the qualitiy he offers. Just imagine the audience would be 10-100 times bigger, the prices for addons could be reduced by half for sure with same or even higher quality.

Thank you man. I am shaking your hand.

[ghinton]

The only issue I have with the Marketplace (or IPB in general), in its current state, is that you should have access to the last version you paid for, even after the time has expired. You should only get access to the latest versions if you have an active license for them, but you shouldn't be kept from downloading something you had already paid for.

[Lindy]

5 hours ago, ghinton said:

The only issue I have with the Marketplace (or IPB in general), in its current state, is that you should have access to the last version you paid for, even after the time has expired. You should only get access to the latest versions if you have an active license for them, but you shouldn't be kept from downloading something you had already paid for.

The marketplace isn't an archive service - you're ultimately responsible for files you download and with so many free storage solutions available today, this should be a non-issue. Old versions of submissions aren't maintained -- when an author submits a new version of a file, it replaces the old one. In the case of IPS itself, we wouldn't be interested in providing anyone anything but the latest version of the software. 

 

[Tracy Perry]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:15 PM, Lindy said:

The marketplace isn't an archive service - you're ultimately responsible for files you download and with so many free storage solutions available today, this should be a non-issue. Old versions of submissions aren't maintained -- when an author submits a new version of a file, it replaces the old one. In the case of IPS itself, we wouldn't be interested in providing anyone anything but the latest version of the software. 

 

OK, so let me get this straight

All those download links point to the same file, even though they show different version numbers in the file name?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

And if they are different, how is the restriction work on determining what was valid when the license was purchased/valid and when it expired (for the add-on, if applicable)?

I do agree that the end user should be responsible for maintaining the last current/valid version themselves and not be dependent upon being able to download them again - but if there is a versioning aspect of the downloads in effect then it is a valid position that they should be available as long as your license is in good stead (even if not active - good stead being anything other than revoked).

[Aiwa]

It is the file submitters choice if the previous version is maintained. Therefore it is not guaranteed.