Debate 3.2

[Zanime]

IPB Community,

Alright I recently read through this topic: What do you think of 3.2? and I decided to create a new topic; not to start another debate.However I felt it important that it needed it's own topic to voice some issues I saw in that topic.

New Default Skin

I have read many complaints about the new skin as well as people and staff defending IP Staff's decision in the choice they made with the new look. Some people have even stated that they do not see themselves or will not be upgrading souly based on the new look. A few people have called the new look childish, Facebook copy/look-a-like, and even hard to find things.

Now some people have responded in telling people that they can customize the look, learn how to customize the look, or even get someone to do it.

Then on the off-hand the same people who complain counter with: i don't know how to skin, I don't have the time to skin or learn to skin, i don't have the money for a custom skin, i don't like most pre-made skins, and so on...

To The Complainers

If you are willing to use every excuse in the book and can not or will not find a means of a solution that has been given to you, then ultimately you are being ignorant. If you do not wish to upgrade,knock-yourself-out, but when the same people repeat this same complaint or it is addressed by another person who feels the same way it becomes redundant. You have been told how to fix it and if you fail to comply then this is a YOU PROBLEM not a new version or design problem.

WANT TO LEARN?

If you would like to learn using IPB I suggest messing around with an older version. You can find many Free Forum services that offer IPB 1.3 (the easiest to learn); if you need to start small. If you want to jump into the new version then start with the basics...

It would also be keen of you to learn the basics of HTML and CSS which can be done here or a simple Google search for HTML and CSS tutorials. You can also find a verity of books at Amazon.com and Barns and Nobles.

You may also find IPB tutorials for older versions; so you will have to wait for new tutorials for IPB 3.2, but starting somewhere is better than no where (Google Search for IPB Skinning Tutorial).

HAVE MONEY?

If you can't find the time to learn then you can always find a pre-made one (free and paid) or a custom one at some of the links below (ATTENTION: Will not have IPB 3.2 Skins at the time I wrote this): Google Search.

DON'T WANT TO LEARN or OTHER?

This is a YOU PROBLEM not a new version or design problem. People can't help people who do not wish to be helped or fail to utilize what has been given to them.

People have told you how to fix it and if you can't see it well than perhaps I should speak to a rock; at least it will understand better...

DEFAULT SKIN

You in reality should not find this an issue, most people are turned off at communities who use the default look!

Old Features Gone!

I also notice another touchy subject was old features gone and IP Staff reason for removing them:

- Latest News on Board Index

- Online/Offline Status in Posts

- Avatar Galleries

- Remote avatars(which allowed for dynamic avatars)

- Topic descriptions

- The ability to disable/enable fast reply in the Admin CP

- You can no longer see what exactly a member is doing from viewing their profile. You have to look at the full online list which might not even be enabled on some boards...

- Post Icons

- Board rules link removed from the board header

- Number of VNC results removed

- User notes

- It is no longer possible to convert categories to forums

- Removal of the quick emoticon panel

Now some people did not like IPS (IP Staff) reason for why they removed so I thought to look at this in a different way.

Developer's Stand Point

I want you to go to any community (IPB, vBulletin, SMF, etc) and look at people's profile and see who actually has a photo of themselves in the Photo image for the profile? How many can you find who actual uses it for what it was meant to be used as?

In fact I would say 20% of people who use it actually post a photo of them selves. Well the other 80% don't use it or use it another avatar with a random picture (which is how I used it). So from a developers stand point this was taking up space because barely anyone used it or used it for what it should have been. As for the avatar gallery, again look at any forum software community and find a percent of people who actually use the default forum avatar gallery images (I would say probably less than 25%; and that's being nice).

This also applies to Post Icons, Topic Descriptions (which I used probably 2% of the time), etc.

I hope this will help you understand that from a developers stand point these where taking up space that could be used for something else.

Business Stand Point

So from a business stand point did removing these features make sense?

CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT

If we look at it this way, then no. They only cared about themselves and not the customers and basically said, F off.

CUSTOMERS vs DEVELOPERS

From this stand point yes it did make sense. They took their developer skills and ultimately made a business decision that they feel is better. It may not satisfy 100% of the customers, but they knew it would work and thus was okay.

CUSTOMERS vs CUSTOMERS

I would even say they probably expected some people to not like this move, but knew some would not care. So they have 2 groups:

1) One who want something.
2) The other who will live with the change

So using this perspective it also made sense to remove them.

*Personally I find Smiles useless and I would have removed them.

Peoples Opinion

I also read many posts where people where slandered for voicing their opinion. First off:

1) Pointing out the obvious is stupid; never assume the person doesn't know something.
2) Peoples opinion can't be stupid; you only make yourself look ignorant.

Example of #2:

People have a right to their opinion, but you don't have the right to voice if you think someones opinion is stupid; especially when you use your own opinion to do so as TheRevTastic did.


Staff

I will agree with some people who posted that most of you came off as sarcastic, rude, or ignorant sounding to some of the replies. I'm not going to sit here and write how you should treat your customers and reply to their every whim. However I will say professionalism goes a long way; even for those rude customers.

v/Respectfully,
Kage Kazumi

[openfire]

[U2 Fan]

Saw me in half and call me Stumpy!

[invisiblex_merged]

[AlexJ]

Hint: If you had created one topic / suggestion/critics, I or anyone from community would have guided you to the hooks created by community for few removed features.

No offense, but most of the people will not even bother to read your essay.

To be honest, I lol'd at the quote where it says vB has good default skin.

[NenaDice]

WANT TO LEARN?

If you would like to learn using IPB I suggest messing around with an older version. You can find many Free Forum services that offer IPB 1.3 (the easiest to learn); if you need to start small. If you want to jump into the new version then start with the basics...

This is not a good advice. Things have changed totally from the 1.3. version that you advice to the latest. The best way to learn with be with the current version which can be set up at a test forum and go from there. Also reading the documentations and searching the forums will be a big help as well.

[Zanime]

To be honest, I lol'd at the quote where it says vB has good default skin.

Here is another poor example; gotta love those fan boys...

This is not a good advice. Things have changed totally from the 1.3. version that you advice to the latest. The best way to learn with be with the current version which can be set up at a test forum and go from there. Also reading the documentations and searching the forums will be a big help as well.

You are clearly blind to exactly what I said (which was if they wanted to start small and easy) so it is good advice; besides I also pointed this out as well so thank you Captain Obvious!

* Also read the section on Peoples Opinion; here is an example of #1

[4joys]

CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT

If we look at it this way, then no. They only cared about themselves and not the customers and basically said, F off.

CUSTOMERS vs DEVELOPERS

From this stand point yes it did make sense. They took their developer skills and ultimately made a business decision that they feel is better. It may not satisfy 100% of the customers, but they knew it would work and thus was okay.

You will never have a 100% members satisfied on any software upgrade, but it does seem that IP listened to the majority of their customers here. I for one can't wait to upgrade, and I will be using the default skin with a few minor tweaks. Do I love everything about it? No, but they did not develop it just for me, but for the majority of their customers.

[AlexWright]

If you want the way I learned skinning? Google Chrome's "Inspect Element" feature. Often gives you the div ID to edit for that specific (Chrome highlights a selection in this feature with a blue area) piece of the skin. Firefox's Firebug does the same thing, afaik.

[AlexJ]

Here is another poor example; gotta love those fan boys...

Fan boys? I have posted enough share of suggestions and critics for gallery and board where required and IPS even included some suggestions, not all but they did.

I just mentioned I "lol'd" at the quote where it says vB default skin is good. Dude, I can't even laugh now or what? If someone likes vB skin and if I don't then it's not my issue.

If I say, ATI driver sucks, then I am fanboi of nvidia? Oh please ...

[EJRav3n]

Simplicity, YES finally. Everyone else who doesn't like the new IPB can go to hell. This is their best work so far. I hope they keep making their products less redundant and more simplistic. They are losing ground to smaller boards because of this issue. More mainstream is the way to go. Old users who need all those useless features can go to vBulletin, they are still catering to the few who like all those features.

[Aisha]

So is the op worth reading or is it nothing new that I haven't already read in the past couple weeks?

[AlexWright]

Worth reading. The result of this topic, in a few phrases:

Hater's Gonna Hate
Liker's Gonna Like
If you don't like it, change it.

Simplicity makes this topic simple to understand.

[Robulosity2]

Here is another poor example; gotta love those fan boys...

You are clearly blind to exactly what I said (which was if they wanted to start small and easy) so it is good advice; besides I also pointed this out as well so thank you Captain Obvious!

* Also read the section on Peoples Opinion; here is an example of #1

Really? Your calling out fan boys when you clearly yourself are one? Ironic one could say..

[NenaDice]

You are clearly blind to exactly what I said (which was if they wanted to start small and easy) so it is good advice; besides I also pointed this out as well so thank you Captain Obvious!

* Also read the section on Peoples Opinion; here is an example of #1

Your advice on that point does not make sense at all. Starting small and easy you can do it very well with the current version and not such an outdated version which besides other things, is full of security issues as well. All users will get from that is major headaches and there is nothing to learn with that version.

[Christophe]

Customer is NOT always right...what the expression means is that you must make the customer think he/she is always right and NOT that they are actually always right. Make the customer happy and not upset about the service or company. It does NOT mean that their grievance or comment is warranted, correct or should be acted upon because doing so may diminish the service or quality of a product for others or for the company.

Some customers have unreasonable expectations of you and your company. Some customers will never be happy or satisfied, until they win some sort of “superiority position” in your relationship that allows them to take advantage of you.

Here is a good article if you are interested: http://positiveshari...right-is-wrong/

[qscott86]

I'm not sure why it was necessary to start another topic on this - there are many already which you could have responded to. In my opinion, a moderator should merge them all.

[Energizer]

- Latest News on Board Index

- Online/Offline Status in Posts

- Avatar Galleries

- Remote avatars(which allowed for dynamic avatars)

- Topic descriptions

- The ability to disable/enable fast reply in the Admin CP

- You can no longer see what exactly a member is doing from viewing their profile. You have to look at the full online list which might not even be enabled on some boards...

- Post Icons

- Board rules link removed from the board header

- Number of VNC results removed

- User notes

- It is no longer possible to convert categories to forums

- Removal of the quick emoticon panel

I agree with this!
I do not understand why good features must be removed. I am also disappointed and angry about this. It is a step backwards. IPB 3.2 is good, but these things disappoint me! Let them but old functions as they are, what's the problem? :no:

[TSilva]

Some customers have unreasonable expectations of you and your company.

Yeah, man. Where do these people get off begging not to have existing features removed? Don't they know in return they are having old bugs fixed?

People these days....

should be acted upon because doing so may diminish the service or quality of a product for others or for the company.

Do I have to point out the irony in this?

[Zanime]

You will never have a 100% members satisfied on any software upgrade, but it does seem that IP listened to the majority of their customers here. I for one can't wait to upgrade, and I will be using the default skin with a few minor tweaks. Do I love everything about it? No, but they did not develop it just for me, but for the majority of their customers.

This is true in anything: video games, software, electronics, the list could go on. SOme people are just one sided that's all.

Simplicity, YES finally. Everyone else who doesn't like the new IPB can go to hell. This is their best work so far. I hope they keep making their products less redundant and more simplistic. They are losing ground to smaller boards because of this issue. More mainstream is the way to go. Old users who need all those useless features can go to vBulletin, they are still catering to the few who like all those features.

Clearly you missed the point behind the topic....

Your advice on that point does not make sense at all. Starting small and easy you can do it very well with the current version and not such an outdated version which besides other things, is full of security issues as well. All users will get from that is major headaches and there is nothing to learn with that version.

Yes I did. This has no right or wrong answer. Your opinion VS my Opinion neither of us will win. And as I said IF THEY WANTED TO. I did not say they had to...

Really? Your calling out fan boys when you clearly yourself are one? Ironic one could say..

Actual no I'm not. I hate many things about IPB and vBulletin, but I still use both as they also have their pros as well. I simply like looking out side the box instead of camping out inside it all day.

Welcome Fan boy; seems I hit the nail on the head with you.

I'm not sure why it was necessary to start another topic on this - there are many already which you could have responded to. In my opinion, a moderator should merge them all.

Yes their are, but I did not really make this topic to debate it (regardless of the topic title). I saw many issue people had and decided to give them a different perspective to look at.

I agree with this!

I do not understand why good features must be removed. I am also disappointed and angry about this. It is a step backwards. IPB 3.2 is good, but these things disappoint me! Let them but old functions as they are, what's the problem? :no:

I thought my explanation was pretty clear; plus I have already seen some of these as MODS in the Modification section of IPB for 3.2 Beta.

[.Ian]

I will agree with some people who posted that most of you came off as sarcastic, rude, or ignorant sounding to some of the replies. I'm not going to sit here and write how you should treat your customers and reply to their every whim. However I will say professionalism goes a long way; even for those rude customers.

Here is another poor example; gotta love those fan boys...

You are clearly blind to exactly what I said (which was if they wanted to start small and easy) so it is good advice; besides I also pointed this out as well so thank you Captain Obvious!

Clearly reading your own posts is not one of your strong points in life :wink:

[jucs]

DEFAULT SKIN

You in reality should not find this an issue, most people are turned off at communities who use the default look!

This is simply not true. Now in the new version it costs me more money because the skin has changed yet again!

Is the default 3.1.4 skin still going to be available by someone out there?