Hump Day: A Refresh Has Arrived!

[Ramsesx]

@Matt Sad, you don't answered any question about the situation of the marketplace devs your biggest asset for a healthy growing community. Why is it so hard to give them some benefits to keep them here? This would increase your profit in a long term perspective. 

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, ahc said:

@Matt  You may have removed the online user limit for cloud hosting, but I see that you replaced it with a limit on page impressions instead. Why are you guys determined to force people to limit their traffic or get charged up the arse with fees? You make it seem like you did everyone a favor, but all you did was slap some lipstick on the pig. 

Also, it’s $54/m. Let’s be real about the fact that a lot of those responding aren’t going to pay annually based on their feedback. 

Because we have to pay for things too? And those things are billed based on usage too. 🙂

$54/month is not a lot when you consider a decent VPS is almost that on its own. But I accept that everyone has different needs and comfort levels. All we can offer is options.

2 minutes ago, Ramsesx said:

@Matt Sad, you don't answered any question about the situation of the marketplace devs your biggest asset for a healthy growing community. Why is it so hard to give them some benefits to keep them here? This would increase your profit in a long term perspective. 

I can't speak on behalf of the third-party developers. I also have not been contacted by a single third-party developer here, or in our shared Slack channel to be told they are leaving. So I can't really say that I agree with the view that we are facing a mass exodus of developers because I'm just not seeing it.

[jesuralem]

5 minutes ago, Matt said:

I can't speak on behalf of the third-party developers. I also have not been contacted by a single third-party developer here, or in our shared Slack channel to be told they are leaving. So I can't really say that I agree with the view that we are facing a mass exodus of developers because I'm just not seeing it.

Three of the most active third party devs have been active on this very discussion. At least two of them clearly stating this would impact their future projects.

Honestly, how many active devs is there ? what would-it cost to give free licenses to developper having more than xx downloads/intalls of their apps/themes/plugins ?

[tsdevelopment]

Please provide monthly payments. This would be better. Or no renewal periods.

Edited September 15, 2021 by tsdevelopment

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, jesuralem said:

Three of the most active third party devs have been active on this very discussion. At least two of them clearly stating this would impact their future projects.

Honestly, how many active devs is there ? what would-it cost to give free licenses to developper having more than xx downloads/intalls of their apps/themes/plugins ?

It's something that has come up in the past. The trouble is making it a fair system.

If you're a developer who is making regular sales, would they deserve a free license at this point over someone who is trying to publish their first app? if you say that any developer can have a free license, how do they develop before they get a free license?

If we say you get free renewals, where is the threshold? A developer who spends 8 hours a day, 5 days a week making apps and looking after customers or someone who gets a basic plug-in published? Where is the line?

It's a system that need a lot of thought should be implement it.

[abobader]

I learn by the years when IPS setup something, they never change it, only Matt here to explain their view that all, then Charles will reply later 🙂 

Which is a good thing tho.

Also Matt offer to help with customers to pay 6 month, that also good thing as well.

I am not here regarding the price, support is the most important, since that gone, software gone as well (Please Matt do not reply and explain more about forum support, since I reject that "simply that me").

Good thing this happens now and my renew still 2 months away, that give me time see what best software to switch too.

All in all, it was a good run for more than 20 years 🙂

[Matt]

Just now, tsdevelopment said:

Please provide monthly payments. This would be better. Or no renewal periods.

You can pay into your account credits head of the invoice if that helps your budgeting.

I asked our staff if they'd be OK not getting paid if we stopped all renewal periods and they weren't overly keen on that idea.😬

2 minutes ago, abobader said:

I learn by the years when IPS setup something, they never change it, only Matt here to explain their view that all, then Charles will reply later 🙂 

Which is a good thing tho.

Also Matt offer to help with customers to pay 6 month, that also good thing as well.

I am not here regarding the price, support is the most important, since that gone, software gone as well (Please Matt do not reply and explain more about forum support, since I reject that "simply that me").

Good thing this happens now and my renew still 2 months away, that give me time see what best software to switch too.

All in all, it was a good run for more than 20 years 🙂

I know you said to not say that support hasn't gone - but, and I apologise in advance.... but support hasn't gone. You retain ticket access until Jan 2022, after that you will use our staffed support area within our community and sensitive or complex issues will be triaged into a ticket for you.

[Daddy]

23 minutes ago, Matt said:

You can pay into your account credits head of the invoice if that helps your budgeting.

I asked our staff if they'd be OK not getting paid if we stopped all renewal periods and they weren't overly keen on that idea.😬

You have 27,256 active paying clients and only 15 staff (that we know of). Let's not pretend you're struggling here.

Just for fun... Let's assume all 27,256 (All clients who have renewed in the past 6 months) are paying the lowest possible, self hosted, forum license only. $80 a year / 12 equals $6.66 a month x 27,256 equals $181,524.96 a month and $2,178.299.52 a year before expenses. Enough to give 21 employees a 6 figure salary a year.

This of course is the lowest possible income for all current clients and assumes all of them only have a single license. I am pretty confident your income is twice, if not triple that.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Deathicated

[Zapusto]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

You do not need to spend $1250 to ask us questions. We are right here on the forum or if you want to raise something in private, please use the contact us link. If you need support, please use the ticket system as normal. After Jan 1st 2022, you can reach us in the support forum. If you need to share private information, just state that and we'll convert it into a ticket for you.

We are not removing support, just changing how to get it.

Matt, either I was unclear or you missed my point entirely. I run a couple of non-profit, small communities for both sentimental reasons and for some loyalty to those who enjoy it. And when there are problems, one of the users will hit me up on Skype to let me know something is wrong. I confirm the issue and then login to the admin of the forum, click get support, describe the issue and then IPB looks after it (admin user for IPB is auto created, et al). Having direct support is why I kept an active IPB Subscription. And this was an efficient method as I am much too busy to deal with it.

What you are introducing is a "triage" step which requires users to first take time to come here, publicly justify they need a ticket, no doubt have it publicly disseminated asking to explain the problem first, do the back and forth, have it finally deemed worthy of a proper support ticket, then having to explain the issue. It's reminiscent of an call center before you get actual support. I just don't have the time to do it. I absolutely won't be posting support information for others to disseminate. When I request support, I expect it directly with the company, and only the company, with whom I have a business relationship.

The price increase will not affect me, and in fact it's something I understand. But the method of support all but ensures I will be looking for alternatives.

Like I said, I wish you well. I followed you over from Iko, and have been with IPB through it's various iterations. And throughout that time there's always been a means of direct support. I'm just too busy to have to justify getting a ticket.

Prices attract customers. Support keeps them. It's been a good run. I wish you well in future.

[RevengeFNF]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

We never wanted to be the cheapest, just the best. 🙂 

I understand that, but most of your users probably want a balance between the cheapest and the best.

I also understand that IPS will probably be safe, because most of them will not take the risk of doing a migration. Doing that it's not easy, not at all. But some might take the risk.

I would understand an increase to 55$ or even 60$. But an increase to 80$ is completely out of market.

Just my 2 cents.

[Feneroin]

Make some payments options will be ok...

6month renewal

9 month renewal

12 month renewal etc...

[tsdevelopment]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

You can pay into your account credits head of the invoice if that helps your budgeting.

No, this doesn't help b/c most of my plugins are available for free. There is a difference whether I have to pay 25$ each 6 months or 80$ at once. Would be better to have monthly payments and maybe to get a discount when someone pays the complete amount at once.

[Matt]

Just now, Zapusto said:

Matt, either I was unclear or you missed my point entirely. I run a couple of non-profit, small communities for both sentimental reasons and for some loyalty to those who enjoy it. And when there are problems, one of the users will hit me up on Skype to let me know something is wrong. I confirm the issue and then login to the admin of the forum, click get support, describe the issue and then IPB looks after it (admin user for IPB is auto created, et al). Having direct support is why I kept an active IPB Subscription. And this was an efficient method as I am much too busy to deal with it.

What you are introducing is a "triage" step which requires users to first take time to come here, publicly justify they need a ticket, no doubt have it publicly disseminated asking to explain the problem first, do the back and forth, have it finally deemed worthy of a proper support ticket, then having to explain the issue. It's reminiscent of an call center before you get actual support. I just don't have the time to do it. I absolutely won't be posting support information for others to disseminate. When I request support, I expect it directly with the company, and only the company, with whom I have a business relationship.

The price increase will not affect me, and in fact it's something I understand. But the method of support all but ensures I will be looking for alternatives.

Like I said, I wish you well. I followed you over from Iko, and have been with IPB through it's various iterations. And throughout that time there's always been a means of direct support. I'm just too busy to have to justify getting a ticket.

Prices attract customers. Support keeps them. It's been a good run. I wish you well in future.

I appreciate your feedback and I'm sorry to hear that you're leaving. Our aim for a support community is not just a ticket system in public, but rather a living knowledge base. We would consider putting in a "problem search" feature in the Admin Panel so you can quickly see if your issue has already been resolved before needing to submit a ticket.

[Ilya Hoilik]

Matt, morning! Let me put my two cents. I think you should have to announce renewal price change and allow everyone to renew till January 1 for old price (even if a customer has renewal date after January 1). The pros are customers may choose between renewing right now for $105 or later for $310 if it is no problem for them.

Personally I do not see global problems in $310, but I believe this change had to be realised another way. You should have to give customers a chance to select between several options. Especially because we live in COVID era and some people may have financial problems. I am in luck I renewed my main license past week.

I guess we will see less free products in the Marketplace in the future and less purchases of paid products, because some customers may leave or simple do not renew their license. Bet renew price raising will have long-lasting consequences for us as a third-party developers. I also think we will see how some of developers leave us and switch to another projects.

Regarding support, I see a lot of products where support are provided via public forum. I don't think it is such bad as someone else wrote here. Will see how it will go and hope it will be ok.

Regarding PR, I really hate that 'Don’t worry, it’s not bad news'. It is on top of the worst sentences I have seen for a several months. I work for Yandex and face a PR-sentences from time to time, but that one sentence is very ugly. Price raising is always a bad news for everyone who are paying. I would really re-word it.

I am not leaving nor have a plan to, but I think Invision Community development team must concentrate on customers suggestions and do all the best to release long-awaited update for Pages and Downloads. Especially for Pages, because it has unlimited potential and may turn Invision Community into the next level.

[Adriano Faria]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

Our aim for a support community is not just a ticket system in public, but rather a living knowledge base.

You should know after so many years in this business that people DO NOT search. You will have repeated topics with same matters in same day/week.  People don’t like to waste time checking a huge list of topics.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Adriano Faria

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Ilya Hoilik said:

Matt, morning! Let me put my two cents. I think you should have to announce renewal price change and allow everyone to renew till January 1 for old price (even if a customer has renewal date after January 1). The pros are customers may choose between renewing right now for $105 or later for $310 if it is no problem for them.

Personally I do not see global problems in $310, but I believe this change had to be realised another way. You should have to give customers a chance to select between several options. Especially because we live in COVID era and some people may have financial problems. I am in luck I renewed my main license past week.

I guess we will see less free products in the Marketplace in the future and less purchases of paid products, because some customers may leave or simple do not renew their license. Bet renew price raising will have long-lasting consequences for us as a third-party developers. I also think we will see how some of developers leave us and switch to another projects.

Regarding support, I see a lot of products where support are provided via public forum. I don't think it is such bad as someone else wrote here. Will see how it will go and hope it will be ok.

Regarding PR, I really hate that 'Don’t worry, it’s not bad news'. It is on top of the worst sentences I have seen for a several months. I work for Yandex and face a PR-sentences from time to time, but that one sentence is very ugly. Price raising is always a bad news for everyone who are paying. I would really re-word it.

I am not leaving nor have a plan to, but I think Invision Community development team must concentrate on customers suggestions and do all the best to release long-awaited update for Pages and Downloads. Especially for Pages, because it has unlimited potential and may turn Invision Community into the next level.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Ilya.

I take onboard your point with the wording of the email. You're right, price increases are never fun.

It's easy to imagine a negative future but I've learned that you can never predict the future. All I can say is that we will still be putting our energy and focus into Invision Community and hope that you all stick with us through this wild ride.

There are more cost effective options out there for sure, but it's not cheap to develop and maintain software and I wonder how sustainable it is for those low cost options and whether lower costs means fewer staff which means slower updates and development of the platform.

I guess we'll see. 🙂 

3 minutes ago, Adriano Faria said:

You should know after so many years in this business that people DO NOT search. You will have repeated topics with same matters in same day/week.  People don’t like to waste time checking a huge list of topics.

*Raises hand* I search.

I accept your point. I agree, a simple search box will not be enough, but I have some thoughts on how we can make it work.

[byMarcoX]

7 minutes ago, Adriano Faria said:

You should know after so many years in this business that people DO NOT search. You will have repeated topics with same matters in same day/week.  People don’t like to waste time checking a huge list of topics.

Tu vas me dire, moi j'ai rarement trouvé ce que je cherchais dans les erreurs, du coup, à 99% j'ai toujours réglé mes bugs et problèmes par moi même et je m'auto héberge, du coup, je n'arrive pas à savoir ce que je gagne de payer autant, en 20 ans j'ai pas vu non plus de très gros changement exceptionnels et si on compte ce que j'ai versé à IPS depuis tout ce temps, j'aurais peut être une belle Mercedes à la place d'un forum presque vide qui me coûte un bras.

You will tell me, I have rarely found what I was looking for in errors, suddenly, at 99% I always fixed my bugs and problems by myself and I self-host, suddenly, I do not can't figure out what I earn from paying so much, in 20 years I haven't seen any really big exceptional changes either and if you count what I have paid to IPS over all this time, I might have a beautiful Mercedes instead of an almost empty forum which costs me an arm and a leg.

 

[Ramsesx]

15 minutes ago, Matt said:

It's something that has come up in the past. The trouble is making it a fair system.

Of course it should be a fair system, I agree with you. But that can't be so difficult, I think. Surely we also agree that good add-ons are a powerful draw for your company? At least it was a reason for me to choose you over your competitors. For developers who offer countless add-ons or whose add-ons are very popular, I would personally even pay a little extra to keep them happy. It is already the case that many good add-ons have disappeared because the developers have left. I don't want to have to explain to my customers on a regular basis why one feature or another is no longer there.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, byMarcoX said:

Tu vas me dire, moi j'ai rarement trouvé ce que je cherchais dans les erreurs, du coup, à 99% j'ai toujours réglé mes bugs et problèmes par moi même et je m'auto héberge, du coup, je n'arrive pas à savoir ce que je gagne de payer autant, en 20 ans j'ai pas vu non plus de très gros changement exceptionnels et si on compte ce que j'ai versé à IPS depuis tout ce temps, j'aurais peut être une belle Mercedes à la place d'un forum presque vide qui me coûte un bras.

You will tell me, I have rarely found what I was looking for in errors, suddenly, at 99% I always fixed my bugs and problems by myself and I self-host, suddenly, I do not can't figure out what I earn from paying so much, in 20 years I haven't seen any really big exceptional changes either and if you count what I have paid to IPS over all this time, I might have a beautiful Mercedes instead of an almost empty forum which costs me an arm and a leg.

 

It sounds like you are a very skilled and knowledgeable person who has managed to resolve your issues by yourself. This is how I learned how to program.

[Davyc]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I think the floodgates are open 😅

I do not enjoy reading that people are upset. We could have done better with the announcement via email, but I think whatever we did on this topic would have met with a similar reaction.

I want you to know that no one is forcing you out of the door.

Oh but you are forcing me out because in one fell swoop you have taken what was affordable to unaffordable.  Instead of making excuses for the rest of the team (who are noticeable by their absence in this discussion) and just admit you all read the potential outcome wrongly and actually do something positive to mitigate the appalling mess that this huge error has caused (possibly damaging the reputation of IPS irreversibly), instead you are attempting to defend the indefensible.   

25 minutes ago, Matt said:

We never wanted to be the cheapest, just the best.

When I was running my own website development business (for 20 years until I retired last year) I wanted to be the cheapest so I could gain business from potential competitors, but I never lowered standards and had hundreds of highly satisfied clients over that period of time.  When one of them asked me why I was so cheap compared to the rest my reply was two-fold:

1. I wanted their business so I offered them lower prices than my competitors

2. I wanted to be the best that I could be so that they would be happy with my endeavours and recommend me

I also pointed out that 'something is better than nothing' if I wanted to pay my bills and live a comfortable life. Without that philosophy of giving good value for money I would not have survived for the 20 years I did and I gained clients who would otherwise have moved on and not had what they could afford.

Cheap doesn't always equate to being crap, and expensive doesn't always equate to being great, or even the best.

I often use this tactic when I negotiate with utilities and I ask them "would you rather have something, or nothing". When you're dealing with your clients you have to understand the affordability equation and if you price yourself out of a market that has sustained you throughout the early years, then it's understandable that you will lose them.

You really should consider giving your clients some breathing room and not lumber them with a lump sum they had no time to plan for or even decide whether it was affordable or not.  We all realise that prices rise, but your team decided not to implement yearly rises for a decade, and you survived and grew, but now it's all OK to just make sweeping changes without warning and you expect everything to be rosy and everyone will be happy campers.

IPS made a huge blunder by leaving price increases for ten years or more and then just hit everyone out of the blue with patronising PR babble as a defence.  You need to negotiate with your clients, not dictate.

I've waded through the years of complaints railed against IPS for some blunders made in the past, this is not the first toxic topic, but man it has quickly become the one to beat.

 

[byMarcoX]

5 minutes ago, Matt said:

It sounds like you are a very skilled and knowledgeable person who has managed to resolve your issues by yourself. This is how I learned how to program.

La meilleure école, apprendre sur le tas 😉 la même avec WordPress

The best school, learn on the job 😉 the same with WordPress

Edited September 15, 2021 by byMarcoX

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, Ramsesx said:

Of course it should be a fair system, I agree with you. But that can't be so difficult, I think. Surely we also agree that good add-ons are a powerful draw for your company? At least it was a reason for me to choose you over your competitors. For developers who offer countless add-ons or whose add-ons are very popular, I would personally even pay a little extra to keep them happy. It is already the case that many good add-ons have disappeared because the developers have left. I don't want to have to explain to my customers on a regular basis why one feature or another is no longer there.

Everything is easy until you make a start. 😆

Sadly, even very happy third-party developers can leave at any time, so I don't think it will stop apps being left and no longer updated. When you are doing something part time, any change in your personal life can mean you can't manage it any longer or simple what to do something else.

[abobader]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

I know you said to not say that support hasn't gone - but, and I apologise in advance.... but support hasn't gone. You retain ticket access until Jan 2022, after that you will use our staffed support area within our community and sensitive or complex issues will be triaged into a ticket for you

Ok Matt, sound fair enough, let give it try, I will not rush thing, I will renew on Dec, and see how support go.

BTW, I see some talk regarding support forum, yes everybody and anybody have support forum for everything, as for forum software, many times you can provide private data for your forum if for example want to explain with screenshot or provide error data in general, that about it.

But let give it a chance to see how thing goes after Dec.

 

[Matt]

Just now, byMarcoX said:

La meilleure école, apprendre sur le tas 😉 la même avec Worldpress

The best school, learn on the job 😉 the same with Worldpress

I you can learn Wordress' code, then you can do anything. 🤪

Just now, abobader said:

Ok Matt, sound fair enough, let give it try, I will not rush thing, I will renew on Dec, and see how support go.

BTW, I see some talk regarding support forum, yes everybody and anybody have support forum for everything, as for forum software, many times you can provide private data for your forum if for example want to explain with screenshot or provide error data in general, that about it.

But let give it a chance to see how thing goes after Dec.

 

Yes, anything complex or needs logs / screenshots can be moved into a ticket, that's no problem.

[abobader]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Yes, anything complex or needs logs / screenshots can be moved into a ticket, that's no problem.

I wish you said that from the start, so you saved me all these typing.

🙂