Marketplace

[Davyc]

Having the marketplace inside of the application in the ACP is a good idea, but - access to the marketplace is governed by having a current license renewal in place.  This means that if a license has expired and the user does not wish to renew at this point in time (for whatever reasons), if their site has a catastrophic failure and they need to reinstall from scratch, the applications they have purchase which need to be reinstalled, what happens to them?  Will they be available in the ACP or will they need to renew their license before they can access what they have paid for?

I believe that the option to install from the ACP should be retained as it's helpful, but the option to download what you have paid for should also be made available.  After all, it is we the users who have paid for this app or plugin.  Thoughts?

[xtech]

Totally agree. You buy an APP, you retain the right to use it, regardless of having an active IPS licence.

Edited September 22, 2020 by xtech

[bosss]

Agree with You ( @Davyc and @xtech) 100 %. Wrote before that our paid files are stealed from us and got warning because of criticsm. Will never buy something from Donatorplace (Marketplace) and will never renew my paid files because my paid files will have on my computer and used when i need them (and also protect them on my way). IPS do not need protect my paid files because they can not protect their owns (allready you can download 4.5.2 whole package - nulled).

Will buy something only on developers site in future. Bought Ipsproarcade - on developers site and had never problems (you can not find nulled arcade) - developer protected his files = Bravo - teach lesson IPS.

@Lindyyou can give me another warning but i understand You - criticsm is not welcome here but kissing ass is ok!

Edited September 22, 2020 by bosss

[WP V0RT3X]

2 hours ago, Davyc said:

if their site has a catastrophic failure

How about making backups? And stealing? Come on... 

[kmk]

3 hours ago, Davyc said:

I believe that the option to install from the ACP should be retained as it's helpful, but the option to download what you have paid for should also be made available.

＋1

In this case require Protect customers right common sense, and this request don't affect no one negatively. 

[Davyc]

1 hour ago, V0RT3X666 said:

How about making backups?

What about if some just wants to do a refresh and start again?  There will always be pros and cons and there will always be those who will provide an answer that is not necessarily something that others are prepared to carry out or have the ability to do so, for whatever reason.  The point here is that you have purchased something from a third party that is now conditional on having an active IPS license if you want to use it again

 

4 minutes ago, kmk said:

and this request don't affect no one negatively. 

 

That is the point, there is no reason to deny downloading as well as using the Marketplace in the ACP - this is not an 'instead of' but an 'as well as'.  

1 hour ago, V0RT3X666 said:

And stealing?

That's severe and a little over the top, but I do understand the sentiment lol.

[CoffeeCake]

3 hours ago, Davyc said:

Having the marketplace inside of the application in the ACP is a good idea, but - access to the marketplace is governed by having a current license renewal in place.  This means that if a license has expired and the user does not wish to renew at this point in time (for whatever reasons), if their site has a catastrophic failure and they need to reinstall from scratch, the applications they have purchase which need to be reinstalled, what happens to them?  Will they be available in the ACP or will they need to renew their license before they can access what they have paid for?

I believe that the option to install from the ACP should be retained as it's helpful, but the option to download what you have paid for should also be made available.  After all, it is we the users who have paid for this app or plugin.  Thoughts?

In the event of a catastrophic loss, the issue would be resolved by restoring from the last backup of the filesystem and database. Reinstallation of resources would not be required, and everything should work exactly as it did at the time of backup.

You should test these disaster recovery plans in advance of the disaster. Make sure your backup strategy works, as does your plan to recover.

[christopher-w]

Anybody know if 4.5 marketplace changes were accompanied with changes to the software licence and or, terms and conditions? I don't recall seeing anything when I downloaded 4.5 for standalone install. Maybe I missed it?

[bosss]

if I buy milk in store want to take the milk home do not leave in the store and bring pancakes dough to the store to use my milk
If I buy tires for my car - do not need to show a driver's license - such visions do not like
Such rules can not be insert in the middle of the process (4.4.10 - 4.5)

Backups have nothing to do with this - my paid files can not make backup - not needed - paid for them.

Edited September 22, 2020 by bosss

[Davyc]

49 minutes ago, Paul E. said:

In the event of a catastrophic loss, the issue would be resolved by restoring from the last backup of the filesystem and database.

I do agree that disaster recovery plans should be part of everyone's routine, but it's not always that cut and dried and people are sometimes either lazy, blaze or just don't know how to do this, therefore if a reinstall is required the resources purchased should always be available whether an active license is in place or not.  This is not about backups or anything like so, it's about taking ownership of what has been purchased and that purchase is available whenever it is required; at present with 4.5.x that is not possible.  It's like buying a car and not being able to take it to who you want for a repair or service other than the dealership that sold it to you and they ask for a fee to ensure continued use of what you have already paid for.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Davyc

[CoffeeCake]

20 minutes ago, Davyc said:

This is not about backups or anything like so, it's about taking ownership of what has been purchased and that purchase is available whenever it is required; at present with 4.5.x that is not possible.  It's like buying a car and not being able to take it to who you want for a repair or service other than the dealership that sold it to you and they ask for a fee to ensure continued use of what you have already paid for.

I agree that the changes in marketplace 4.5 are problematic, but not for the reasons indicated here. We should be able to review resources before installing them in our communities. That said, the licensing IPS uses is standard faire. We don't "own" this software--we have a revocable license to conditionally use it. See: https://invisioncommunity.com/legal/license/

Marketplace terms, as of today, are:

Quote

The IPS Marketplace contains files uploaded by third-parties. Invision Power Services, Inc. (IPS) provides the IPS Marketplace as a convenience to our customers. IPS makes no warranty or claim to the fitness of the resources downloaded from the IPS Marketplace. Any funds collected are done so on behalf of the authors of the files. Files may or may not be supported at the author's discretion. Files may or may not work for a particular version of the IPS software, may contain flaws or defects, and may not work as advertised.

FILES DOWNLOADED FROM THE IPS MARKETPLACE MAY CAUSE HARM TO YOUR COMMUNITY, DATA LOSS, DOWNTIME, OR OTHER DAMAGE. IPS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR AND YOU AGREE TO HOLD IPS HARMLESS FOR ANY POSSIBLE ISSUES CAUSED BY FILES DOWNLOADED FROM IPS MARKETPLACE.

Please note: IPS cannot provide support for files purchased and/or downloaded from the IPS Marketplace. Please contact the author with any concerns related to your purchase. If you have exhausted all methods, you may submit a ticket in your IPS client area to have your concern reviewed.

ALL MARKETPLACE SALES ARE FINAL... ANY REFUND REQUESTS MUST BE SUBMITTED TO AND APPROVED BY THE AUTHOR. NO EXCEPTIONS. PAYMENT DISPUTES (CHARGEBACKS) WILL RESULT IN ACCOUNT TERMINATION. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THESE TERMS, DO NOT PROCEED.

There's nothing that says you can't download things from Marketplace after your license expires, and there's nothing that says you can. The license scope and grant states:

Quote

In consideration for payment of all applicable license fees and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, IPS grants you a revocable, limited and non-exclusive license to install and use the Software and Services on a single installation, accessible via one URL. Access to services, components, software updates and technical support require an active license. All rights in and to the Software and Services are reserved to the use and benefit of IPS and/or its licensors, successors and assigners.

I suppose Marketplace, as changed in 4.5, is "a service."

1 hour ago, christopher-w said:

Anybody know if 4.5 marketplace changes were accompanied with changes to the software licence and or, terms and conditions? I don't recall seeing anything when I downloaded 4.5 for standalone install. Maybe I missed it?

I think what changed was how Marketplace resources were made available in 4.5, and in the introduction of a dependency on an IPS service to get those resources that skips the part where you can download the things directly to your client machine and must instead retrieve them directly via an installation process.

[Davyc]

28 minutes ago, Paul E. said:

Access to services, components, software updates and technical support require an active license.

This is for IPS software and services, nothing to do with third party applications.  The Marketplace is an optional addition supplied as a point for buying third party resources for which IPS takes a commission from each sale.  It has been stated elsewhere that IPS barely break even with the Marketplace in terms of server resources, space, administration etc., but that's between IPS and the third-party developers.  When we 'buy' a resource we are buying from the third party not IPS, so IPS should not have control over our ability to download that purchase whenever we feel like and for as long as IPS retains the Marketplace and we pay renewals to the third-party as part of the overall purchase for support and updates. 

As it stands right now, there is no visible way to download any third-party purchase we make as it must be installed from the ACP. For previous iterations of the IPS software before 4.5.x those resources purchased can be downloaded.

I understand the reasoning behind the ACP Marketplace, and it is handy to be able to install direct, but as in your quote above access to that resource is conditional on having an active license, so that obfuscates the ability to install your purchases and you have no recourse to pay for renewals of the IPS software to get access to what you have paid for, thereby preventing you from reinstalling from a downloaded copy.

As someone who will always have an active license I have no issue with this, but if ever there came a time when I could not afford a renewal fee and I hit an issue with my site and just wanted to do a refresh, I'd be stuck.  In many ways I'm playing Devil's Advocate for those who may come across this limitation.  Some clarification from IPS would be good to have so people understand what they are buying into. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Davyc
Spelling lol

[CoffeeCake]

15 minutes ago, Davyc said:

As someone who will always have an active license I have issue with this, but if ever there came a time when I could not afford a renewal fee and I hit an issue with my site and just wanted to do a refresh, I'd be stuck. 

Completely understand, and yes you'd be stuck if you did not have a backup of your server's filesystem and database.

However, on the long list of reasons why it's not a dubious idea to use an ecosystem that has shifted to a black-box of dependencies that get direct installed for a community, the idea that "I paid money for access to IPS services in the past, so I should be able to use Marketplace when my license period has lapsed" is not a consideration our team is concerned about. We'd have no issue with the requirement of having an active license to be able to download Marketplace items.

If you don't have an active license, you don't have security updates, and your community shouldn't be online on the platform. In a circumstance where the IPS licensing is out of reach, it's time to migrate to a lower cost or open source solution that protects your community members interests by being accessible to security updates.

Edit: To clarify, however, I think it's irresponsible to not provide security updates to all active and inactive license holders to address situations like your hypothetical, yet that's how IPS does business today.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Paul E.

[Davyc]

10 minutes ago, Paul E. said:

Edit: To clarify, however, I think it's irresponsible to not provide security updates to all active and inactive license holders to address situations like your hypothetical, yet that's how IPS does business today.

Completely agree with this - if there is a security risk then there is a flaw in the code, and it should be fixed regardless; that's the ethical thing to do.

It's always, as far as I know, been a requirement to have an active license to access the Marketplace, but then it was always possible to download your purchases and use them whenever it suited.  Install, uninstall, some like the feature, some don't and so on. But now it appears that you MUST have an active license to access your purchases and no download option is available. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that this is not an acceptable way forward for people buying from third parties as you are buying from them and not from IPS but IPS removes that ability to download thereby, in some estranged way, holds you hostage to renewing your lPS license to access your purchases - this seems very wrong to me.  Of course, it is IPS's business and they can do what they like, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.

I'm sure that for most people this isn't a huge concern, but it is a strange way of conducting business.

[xtech]

6 minutes ago, Paul E. said:

If you don't have an active license, you don't have security updates, and your community shouldn't be online on the platform

That is true for the cloud version, but not to the on premise version.

[xtech]

16 minutes ago, Davyc said:

Of course, it is IPS's business and they can do what they like, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.

They can do what they like except for violating the conditions which they and their useds abode when buying the license.

[Metor]

I'm sad to say this, but these recent decisions of Invision Power to make it harder for their customers just to prevent Piracy has given Xenforo a complete monopoly in paid forum software. 
Vbulleting and IPS are running further and further behind focusing on the wrong things.

For example my one big issue before 4.5 was IPS inability to create small thumbnails for every image attachment automatically like Xenforo does. you could argue that it does if you change the image size but you will never be able to choose between a tiny or large image, you will be stuck with small images then.

@onlyME is a great developer and one of the biggest reasons why I stayed on IPS so long, however his addon : https://invisioncommunity.com/files/file/7436-bim-topic-thumbnail/ BIM Topic Thumbnail needs to create his own thumbnails in order for your website to load in a couple of seconds.
Compare that to xenforo where the developer just can use the thumbnails from the inherent system. @onlyME had to make one himself.
In my opinion something like that should be a priority including a new text editor that apparently you'll add in 4.6, because the current editor takes a couple of seconds to load.

You have lost a customer with me, I and many others don't like a closed system where the creator tells you how to do things, and you can't do it any other way. 
In the long run you will financially lose more from this than piracy ever will, this includes 3rd party developers. 
I'm not defending piracy at all here, just your customer treatment in limiting their freedoms the way they use your products. I probably spend 1000+ dollars on custom development, plugins, themes, and the core products during my membership here.

I don't want to be rude or disrespectful just giving my honest opinion, I suspect a lot of other customers feel the same way.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Serayah

[SammyS]

So we´re suffering huge competence from social media, apps, etc, and now this?
This will make invision lose costumers, no doubt about it. Now Xf is more and more appealing

Edited September 23, 2020 by SammyS

[xtech]

14 minutes ago, SammyS said:

no doubt about it.

I do not know how you can be so sure... i am always a man full of doubts, i am always amazed when someone makes such bold assertions.

15 minutes ago, SammyS said:

Now Xf is more and more appealing

I can't agree with you here, sorry. When i look at XF, it is only good at classic forum software. But classic forums are "no more" and they are dying. IPS has followed a different strategy, and imho, a right strategy, of putting a set of tighly coupled apps for community management. The other company that has been following that approach (but they have always taken that direction is Wolt Lab with corporate customers, still, they are lagging behind IPS in aplication effectiveness, comprehension and looks.

To me, there is nothing appealing at XF, only if i wanted to have a gaming forum i would consider them.

[Davyc]

1 hour ago, xtech said:

To me, there is nothing appealing at XF, only if i wanted to have a gaming forum i would consider them.

 

I believe you hit the nail on the head there - it really depends on what you are looking for and what your expectations are.  Sometimes I do believe that 'some' of the strategies that IPS implement are not fully thought through properly to give a level playing field to 'all' of their clients.  If you have a dozen highflyer corporate customers spending X number of dollars with you then you may perceive that they should be your priority.  That said, if you have ten thousand (arbitrary number) hobbyists who pay their dues on time and buy from the marketplace when they see something they either want or need, then you also have to give consideration to them as well.

We all pretty much understand that the days of forums are never going to be what they used to be, but we still add our dollars to the corporate pot to keep it running and I believe that people would have a much warmer feeling and approach if they were listened to as much as the big corporates are listened to.  After all, when IPS first started their software was free and it's only through the loyalty of the smaller hobbyists spending their dollars over the years that IPS has managed to break into higher levels of more profitable business.

At this juncture I'm not saying that clients need to be consulted on every level, but when something is decided that can have a profound effect on everyone, then some consultation would not go amiss - even if it were just a poll.  The whole point of this topic was never to be a platform for complaints or comparisons, rather it was to clarify a point that when someone buys something from the marketplace it should be up to the buyer whether they want to download it or install it from the ACP - but that option has been arbitrarily removed without consent. 

[JustHatched]

Personally I like the new setup overall, makes checking for updates much quicker and installing said updates. If I need to add something custom not on the marketplace I am able to do so as well. I'm past the point of having time to tinker with the code, I just need it to work! (thanks @Adriano Faria for having all yur stuff work, it's appreciated)

[Lindy]

The Marketplace is a service. While you are of course acquiring third party resources, you are not obtaining them directly from third party authors and it is really no different than other app stores. Your transaction is conducted through IPS and the Marketplace is a remote service. The point here is just to dispel the silly notion that we're in "breach of contract." The EULA makes clear the fact that a renewal is required for all updates, services, etc.

To provide further clarification, an expired license does not shut off the software and you may continue its use in an "as-is" state (at time of expiration), but it does effectively render both the license and status as a customer as inactive. It is no secret that our company is based on the recurring investment model, so while we don't want anyone to feel held hostage to renewals and we try to reasonably accommodate all customers past and present, our decisions and prioritization of goals will ultimately be in the interest of those continuing along side of us, sharing our overall vision.

With all of that said, this topic has been discussed several times and ultimately, the Marketplace was moved to the AdminCP for what I hope are obvious reasons. A significantly improved and smooth experience for the majority of customers who want a point-and-click experience, consistent with most non-classic "forum" platforms. We want to take every reasonable measure possible to ensure that when you click to install something from the Marketplace, it will be a successful and safe experience for you. We've tightened the framework around that to ensure you're notified with seamless updates from authors and anything installed through the Marketplace framework has been reasonably reviewed by us. We made the decision to disallow manual downloads from the Marketplace as it is entirely counterproductive to the goal we set out to achieve in the first place.

I want to stress that you are welcome to contact an author for manual file provisions if you would like and we do not prohibit them from providing it. You may also purchase from some authors directly if you wish. The only caveat for both cases is, you would use the manual (old) framework to install and update these resources manually. A warning will also be generated because these are untested files - similar to Mac and Windows. Beyond that, we're not standing in your way of using the "old school" way - we are just not facilitating it as again, it is counterproductive to our goal of something that resembles more of a proper app store and not just a repository of "files."

I'm sorry for the disappointment to those find the previous method to work better for them. As you know, we try to take on board as much feedback as we can - after all, there's no point to any of this without customers. Nonetheless, while we've heard the feedback loud and clear, we do not intend on reversing course on downloads or policy changes, so at this juncture, I would very respectfully ask that we move on to other, more actionable feedback items.

Thank you as always for your continued business.