So much empty space...

[Jordan Miller]

38 minutes ago, Takohashi said:

I wrote about this and showed it on screenshots many times before the release of 4.5. I hope that at least after this discussion, the developers will pay attention to the problem of huge empty space, which worries not only me.

That is fair. However, I was pointing out how (in my opinion) non-constructive your language was. Please... practice kindness when illustrating your points. 🙏 

[Interferon]

On 9/14/2020 at 12:53 AM, christopher-w said:

I think you should view the out of box experience as a starting point for your own personal preferences. We’ve not even launched yet and already have 12 nested scss includes, covering everything from button placement to injecting section  descriptions (selector:after etc ) when for example, core doesn’t offer the facility to add them in ACP  

The problem is that every update breaks our customizations. I am tired of this never-ending cycle of chasing a moving target. The default skin is finally good enough I feel okay just replacing the header and footer with our own. So in spite of my criticism, things actually are moving in the right direction.

I don't think it is possible to ever get the skin perfect:

• Google is forcing everyone to use "responsive design" which massively complicates everything. If we had a free-market economic system the government would shut down monopolistic practices like this, but I digress.
• IPB is a collection of applications with some shared functionality, and that modularity of features will always lead to some tricky design choices.

So I think we can reasonably expect to see some awkward spacing in various parts of the design. However, I think some more effort should be put into improving the most common parts of the most commonly used functionality, and the forum topics list is probably one of the top three pages that get viewed most frequently in the software.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Interferon

[Quotes]

I don't have a problem with calling this aspect of the design "terrible" because it is.

The previous version had the follow button on the same level as the Forum title.

Somebody made the "terrible" decision to move this button into acres of precious vertical space, all on its own. What was wrong with leaving it where it was? Why is this necessary? If it had to be moved below the title as an essential button then why not place it beside the start topic button?

Or if a follow button is of such paramount importance to be a leading feature for the landing page, why not go full width?

You've probably all heard of the "hero image" ... welcome to its successor, the "hero button"

[Rikki]

In 4.5 we've tried to keep headers consistent, so that buttons are where you expect them to be, there's space for additional buttons as each page/app might require, and so that each page/app can extend the data shown in the header without the whole thing breaking down. In 4.4, this was a problem - sure, on perfect example pages, the follow button worked well in the top right. But using a different app where more buttons need to be shown, or even just having a long topic title, suddenly it wasn't so pretty and usable. The new header is designed to be flexible and extensible according to requirements.

It's pretty easy to take one particular page and find criticisms - but remember we are designing a suite where each page might have some shared functionality and some unique functionality. We have to design components that can work well in more than one perfect scenario. 

[Quotes]

42 minutes ago, Rikki said:

We have to design components that can work well in more than one perfect scenario. 

So standard installs of a forum only are not considered core business?

Sorry but this isn't open source software, we have paid subscriptions, and having already been told by Invision they don't want to discuss it, and seeing people being asked to dial down "criticism" here only makes customers feel unloved. Maybe developers don't want to put as much weight behind design issues as they do functionality but seeing so much white space looks very amateur. Not forgetting a topic list relegated down near the fold is going to impact engagement.

And if we are talking components (to cover multiple scenarios) then why can't we switch this section off?

I hope you can appreciate that members posting here probably represent multiple installs, and have to explain this to their clients too. If you can't handle the negative feedback from us then try dealing with it when it comes from the front line.

This isn't a political hot potato... just a straightforward design issue arising from an update... it can be fixed if someone is prepared to listen.

[marklcfc]

I said most of this in beta stage but it meant nothing

[DesignzShop]

12 minutes ago, Quotes said:

If you can't handle the negative feedback from us then try dealing with it when it comes from the front line.

This isn't a political hot potato... just a straightforward design issue arising from an update... it can be fixed if someone is prepared to listen

Rikki just answered you and dealt with it extremely well by answering your question and did listen and explained why. One reason I've been with IPB for this many years is because of their open design instead of bunching everything too close. this isn't the 1990's. 

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it needs fixed. Obviously by Rikkis answer it's WAI.

 

12 minutes ago, Quotes said:

we have paid subscriptions

Yes we do, and I think it's just fine and so do many many others.

Have a nice day

Edited September 15, 2020 by DesignzShop

[Interferon]

5 hours ago, Rikki said:

In 4.5 we've tried to keep headers consistent, so that buttons are where you expect them to be, there's space for additional buttons as each page/app might require, and so that each page/app can extend the data shown in the header without the whole thing breaking down. In 4.4, this was a problem - sure, on perfect example pages, the follow button worked well in the top right. But using a different app where more buttons need to be shown, or even just having a long topic title, suddenly it wasn't so pretty and usable. The new header is designed to be flexible and extensible according to requirements.

It's pretty easy to take one particular page and find criticisms - but remember we are designing a suite where each page might have some shared functionality and some unique functionality. We have to design components that can work well in more than one perfect scenario. 

Yeah, that is what I am saying. I am a software developer, and I understand design decisions that are made for a whole have different ramifications from design decisions that are made on a case by case basis.

But I also understand that your most core functionality needs to weigh heavily in those design decisions. Honestly, right now the system looks like it has a CSS file not loading or something.

[Yamamura]

5 hours ago, Rikki said:

In 4.5 we've tried to keep headers consistent, so that buttons are where you expect them to be, there's space for additional buttons as each page/app might require

On a smartphone, the follow button is located... at the bottom of the page.

[Yamamura]

Just compare this:

[CoffeeCake]

11 minutes ago, Takohashi said:

Just compare this:

[marklcfc]

Its good apart from removing reply to this topic and start new topic. Also its still not as good as 4.4, too many white background separators 

[Yamamura]

It's Full HD. The main content is marked in green. More than half of the screen at the top is occupied by secondary useless information.

And if we use a logo with a large header, then the main content will generally be at the very bottom of the page.

[Yamamura]

Maybe a toggle button to enable compact view in all categories / topics of the forum?

[christopher-w]

58 minutes ago, Takohashi said:

Maybe a toggle button to enable compact view in all categories / topics of the forum?

We've recently implemented a toggle button directly into the editor. It helps us keep above the line content as short as possible. It can be used anywhere where text is added via the rich text editor. We could keep the text even shorter in the example below - it's a case of deciding how much is shown by default. All it takes is a custom button in  ACP > Toolbars and a touch of CSS. The same can be used in posts too I guess, although we've never tried it.

This is all still in development and we've now got to decide where to put all the buttons. Probably going to dock them in a custom toolbar control and position it with CSS. I think we will end up with everything in the page header, bar the title, in a collapsible section.

 

 

Expanded

Edited September 15, 2020 by christopher-w
Clarification

[xtech]

I see too much criticism here for the theme and the white space. UX is always a matter of discussion, and everyone has its personal tastes. Now try to put personal tastes aside, because everyone has his own ones.

Do you have any UX test metrics other than "i don't like it" to present to support your views?

My opinion is, this new theme is  great improvement over the previous one. Is it perfect? No, specially mobile-wise topic page navigation (you have to completely scroll down or up to move to next page, which is not user friendly, for example - surely this can be measured) but regarding the white space, i like it. It helps the text to "breath", and allow better reading. It doesn't bother me at all. My personal taste here, as valuable as anyone's.

This is not a challenge of "how much content can be put in the screen". Simplicity is beautiful. Crowded interfaces confuse users.

Thumbs up for the overall improvements that the IPS has put in the 4.5 theme. I could not use the 4.x theme directly without customizations, but 4.5 theme is good enough for it.

Edited September 15, 2020 by xtech

[Interferon]

5 hours ago, xtech said:

Now try to put personal tastes aside, because everyone has his own ones.

You're not allowed to have an opinion because your opinion is an opinion.

[Jordan Miller]

I do like this....

But I still find it a little odd the user has to scroll all the way to the bottom to reply. That's not very intuitive imo. I wish there was an "easier" way to reply

Also, would love to see nested replies, but that's a whole other topic 😆 

[Fast Lane!]

9 hours ago, xtech said:

I see too much criticism here for the theme and the white space. UX is always a matter of discussion, and everyone has its personal tastes. Now try to put personal tastes aside, because everyone has his own ones.

Do you have any UX test metrics other than "i don't like it" to present to support your views?

My opinion is, this new theme is  great improvement over the previous one. Is it perfect? No, specially mobile-wise topic page navigation (you have to completely scroll down or up to move to next page, which is not user friendly, for example - surely this can be measured) but regarding the white space, i like it. It helps the text to "breath", and allow better reading. It doesn't bother me at all. My personal taste here, as valuable as anyone's.

This is not a challenge of "how much content can be put in the screen". Simplicity is beautiful. Crowded interfaces confuse users.

Thumbs up for the overall improvements that the IPS has put in the 4.5 theme. I could not use the 4.x theme directly without customizations, but 4.5 theme is good enough for it.

Except Google frowns on content being pushed so far dow below the fold.  Bad SEO.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Fast Lane!

[xtech]

10 hours ago, Interferon said:

You're not allowed to have an opinion because your opinion is an opinion.

Of course everyone is allowed. Opinions are the source of a good discussion, specially when they oppose each other. You don't like the white spacing as it is, it is a perfectly reasonable opinion. I like it and i think this theme is a nice improvement over the previous one - also a perfecly reasonable opinion.

Now, i wouldn't like the white spacing to be reversed or shrunk. First, because i my opinion is exactly opposite (fair enough, i guess 😄 ), and second, because there is not any objective data to support the opinion that shrinking the white space would improve the interaction.

 

6 hours ago, Fast Lane! said:

Except Google frowns on content being pushed so far dow below the fold.  Bad SEO.

Yes, but Google also frowns on content being too close to each other in mobile, for example. There is always a compromise that needs to be achieved...

[christopher-w]

10 minutes ago, xtech said:

Now, i wouldn't like the white spacing to be reversed or shrunk. First, because i my opinion is exactly opposite (fair enough, i guess 😄 ), and second, because there is not any objective data to support the opinion that shrinking the white space would improve the interaction.

Really?

Quote

How users interact with a component should determine whether or not you increase the density in a UI. When users view and interact with large amounts of information, high density components can improve the experience.

 

Google Material Design Guidelines: Applying Density

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by christopher-w
Added graphic

[xtech]

5 minutes ago, christopher-w said:

How users interact with a component should determine whether or not you increase the density in a UI. When users view and interact with large amounts of information, high density components can improve the experience.

Good point. I agree, it can, but this is not an undeniable statement... so they used "can" to express possibility. Sey have reviewed their stance on it. It really depends on each case, and that has also to be balanced with aesthethics, text clearness, element organization and placement. And if you have a big screen, too much content can be really overwhelming.

Still, you can always customize the theme to reduce the spacing if you want.

[kmk]

12 minutes ago, xtech said:

Still, you can always customize the theme to reduce the spacing if you want.

Please could you give an example of how to do? I would like give it a try before some points of this discussion are converted to a real changes of improvement. 

[xtech]

5 hours ago, kmk said:

Please could you give an example of how to do? I would like give it a try before some points of this discussion are converted to a real changes of improvement. 

I would start by overriding the CSS custom properties at the custom.css (ex: divide their value by 4)

[Quotes]

On 9/15/2020 at 10:48 PM, xtech said:

Now try to put personal tastes aside, because everyone has his own ones.

The existence of this topic is enough to tell you some people are unhappy with this change.

We could have it both ways with an option to minimise the new additional header space - e.g. disable follow section, reposition, toggle

Both viewpoints can co-exist but at the moment only one is being catered for.