Removal of $15 Domain Change

[DesignzShop]

2 hours ago, The Old Man said:

I'd really like to see IPS take action against a prolific site offering nulled versions of IPS, that seems to have existed for a decade or more despite being discussed here in the forums. Not doing so is almost like turning a blind eye, essentially a slap in the face for all of us who are loyal clients but also struggle to keep the lights on at IPS and our communities. Get them shut down, blacklisted from Google, whatever you can. 

I know IPB has taken the action needed however, when a illegal sites in another country there's only so much anyone can do. I myself have turned in the site you're referring to Google several times and so has some others. Nothing has been, ever.

 

2 hours ago, The Old Man said:

Regarding security patches for fixing vulnerabilities, I believe they should be removed from point releases and instead made available separately for free through the Support Tool, especially with auto updates coming closer. You should NEVER, EVER have to renew a licence to ensure your member's data is safe and your site is secure, especially after you have paid a lot of money for professionally developed quality software with increased security in the first place.

Thats an instant PR win for IPS, right there.

So then what's the purpose to upgrade other than features which are only added during major upgrades? How's IPB supposed to turn a profit, pay devs, pay for support and other bills, taxes etc... etc... Renewals are a major asset to IPB or they wouldn't have them.

here's a great example, I make themes and also charge recurring fees every 6 months, so do most other devs. Why do you think we do that? It's not because we are greedy. It's because a 35.00 theme doesn't cover future support, development of new features and more. After IPB gets its cut, I get $27.50 USD I will wrap up 35.00 USD and more sometimes with a lot of customers in a half hour of free support alone plus I've lost the cost of the sale of my theme. Am I supposed to double the cost of my theme for answering support on what's most of the time custom situations outside of the realm of my theme? There's a laundry list as to why a person may need additional support including giving out free support for those other devs who refuse to follow the IPB css framework again just as an example. "Well I downloaded this plugin and your colors don't match" It's not my fault someones plugin uses it's own css but yet what do I do? Charge them? No, I take care of my customers the best I can. I'm not in this to break even or make no profit, considering I make a little profit as it is. This thread has seriously become left field.

Edited September 3, 2020 by DesignzShop

[Eudemon]

revoking access to marketplace when license expire even if user has active subscriptions

and removing existing item from marketplace listing if dev's license expire (not sure about this, please confirm)

sounds overkill to me

[Steph40]

21 minutes ago, Eudemon said:

revoking access to marketplace when license expire even if user has active subscriptions

and removing existing item from marketplace listing if dev's license expire (not sure about this, please confirm)

sounds overkill to me

Sorry to say this is what I think as well. With that and marketplace time approval I am thinking of changing to something else.

[CoffeeCake]

1 hour ago, Eudemon said:

removing existing item from marketplace listing if dev's license expire

Not sure about now, but prior to 4.5, if the submitter's license expired, the product would show that it was no longer available for purchase.

[ahc]

18 hours ago, DesignzShop said:

bad development
Devs going awol
Devs taking to much time to release

and the list goes on and on and on. I'm sure @Lindy could mention the ones I didn't plus some.

Devs can list off their site but you need to ready for what could happen if things go wrong. As a dev I can tell you the process for us to get our applications and themes in the marketplace is a bonus for the purchaser. You get a working product right out of the box that's been tested and poured over by IPB to make sure you are getting a quality properly developed product. It's not easy for devs to get accepted due to the stringent requirements, but that benefits the buyer in the end imo greatly. losing 10% profit? try 20% in the real near future. Do I agree with that? I think it should be less like around 12-15% but that's not my choice. it is my choice however to go through the painstaking process to make sure IPB customers get a great product. 

This argument makes no sense to me, because in my short time on IPB, I've been burned and scammed by purchasing numerous plugins and apps from devs that have disappeared or would submit something to get as many sales with the promise of future updates and support, only to remove their item once people start requesting the services promised.  Literally spent nearly $100 for a single app for it to be removed less than a week later and denied a refund by the dev.

So, basically nothing is changing except that I can choose to pay a now extra $190 each year to deal with this and keep my 3rd party apps updated, or I can just.. not. 

You can pretend that they're making the marketplace better for everyone, but in the end they're just punishing the ones who weren't doing anything wrong in the first place.  They think they can somehow keep people from finding ways to get the content on this site without having a license when they can't.  There are currently 3 websites at the top of google that always have the latest marketplace items and update their content almost as quickly as it gets uploaded here.

Edited September 3, 2020 by ahc

[CoffeeCake]

1 minute ago, ahc said:

There are currently 3 websites at the top of google that always have the latest marketplace items and update their content almost as quickly as it gets uploaded here.

I had no idea there were alternative sites upon which IPS plugins and applications were sold, and my quick attempt at google fu netted no results that looked legitimate.

Are developers here in the habit of selling their modifications on other marketplaces that do not have the restriction of having to be installed via ACP? This would entirely resolve the issue for us, as we could continue our development practices and due diligence.

[ahc]

1 minute ago, Paul E. said:

I had no idea there were alternative sites upon which IPS plugins and applications were sold, and my quick attempt at google fu netted no results that looked legitimate.

Are developers here in the habit of selling their modifications on other marketplaces that do not have the restriction of having to be installed via ACP? This would entirely resolve the issue for us, as we could continue our development practices and due diligence.

You misinterpreted.  These are definitely not legitimate marketplaces and just rip all of the content here and offer it for free.  

[CoffeeCake]

Just now, ahc said:

You misinterpreted.  These are definitely not legitimate marketplaces and just rip all of the content here and offer it for free.  

Oh, my mistake. Yes, not looking for that.

[DesignzShop]

1 hour ago, ahc said:

This argument makes no sense to me, because in my short time on IPB, I've been burned and scammed by purchasing numerous plugins and apps from devs that have disappeared or would submit something to get as many sales with the promise of future updates and support, only to remove their item once people start requesting the services promised.  Literally spent nearly $100 for a single app for it to be removed less than a week later and denied a refund by the dev.

So, basically nothing is changing except that I can choose to pay a now extra $190 each year to deal with this and keep my 3rd party apps updated, or I can just.. not. 

You can pretend that they're making the marketplace better for everyone, but in the end they're just punishing the ones who weren't doing anything wrong in the first place.  They think they can somehow keep people from finding ways to get the content on this site without having a license when they can't.  There are currently 3 websites at the top of google that always have the latest marketplace items and update their content almost as quickly as it gets uploaded here.

In your first paragraph,, I would of contacted support over that since the item was listed in marketplace. I'm also sure if Lindy knew about someone pulling something like that they'd have a issue. I'm positive someone would've looked into that for you.

Your renewals go for more than 3rd party app upgrades, security updates, IPB services, software features and more.

I don't have to pretend on anything. 4.5 is bringing a whole new way of working marketplace. Mlst the people I see selling it now have been here a while and sold a few things. I'm not sure however on IPB's policy on new devs. That's something you'd have to speak @Lindy with. I do know Danial and Stuart are pouring over apps, code, databases etc... before anything gets approved. That means you're getting a quality product that works out of the box. Were also as devs now forced to include any changes in the change log so they know what to review on resubmissions. There's more to that submission process also.

Edited September 3, 2020 by DesignzShop

[Aiwa]

I know someone mentioned it before about devs maintaining an active license in order to sell in the marketplace.

I pose a conundrum... How can a developer, selling in the marketplace, both develop and test their resource, for the latest IPS version, when they do not have legitimate access to the latest IPS version?

I get that many are both afraid of change and concerned with making ends meet. Everyone is in a different place financially with both themselves and their communities. I foot the entire bill for 2 communities and their server out of pocket. One with all IPS apps and the other with all but one. Both licenses are always active. Can / would everyone do that? For the vast majority I’d guess no. But it goes to show the diversity of clients.

[Askancy]

8 hours ago, Aiwa said:

I pose a conundrum... How can a developer, selling in the marketplace, both develop and test their resource, for the latest IPS version, when they do not have legitimate access to the latest IPS version?

 

I pose another conundrum, If I purchase your Steam Profile Integration resource, and you decided not to renew the license anymore, I lose the ability to install it since it disappears from the marketplace and I don't have any files locally? 

Sincerely the file local allows me to analyze the code and implement an IP.board resource with my site in Laravel, just like I did as Custom Links, now everything turns out more machinous. 

 

I love Evanto's method, although I hate the fact that if a Developer deletes the resource who bought it lost it, because it was the buyer's job to save it in a cloud storage. Unfortunately IP.Board now doesn't even allow this anymore.

[bosss]

Everywhere if you buy something with license = you get files to download on your computer - but not here because someone think that we customers are stupid. Renewal costs for 6 months is only here what is more than stupid and IPS shoulod shame about that.

If i buy something and paid - i want those files on my PC - that is legal and works everywhere - but not here after 4.5.

My decision is what i will do with my paid files - delete or use it - if filies is ok i do not need support.

 

[Eudemon]

4 hours ago, Askancy said:

I pose another conundrum, If I purchase your Steam Profile Integration resource, and you decided not to renew the license anymore, I lose the ability to install it since it disappears from the marketplace and I don't have any files locally? 

I agree, I developed my apps for my own website, decided to share in marketplace if other find any use

I didn't develop in intention to sell lot of copies

marketplace already has filter for each minor releases, if i and IPS following best practices, then almost all cases patch update of system shouldn't break it

it's been more than a year since last minor release, if I have to keep my license active just for other to be able to download it, I will be deep net negative

this hurts the customer who purchase the plugin won't be able to install it or update it, it also hurts my reputation

[CoffeeCake]

4 hours ago, Askancy said:

I pose another conundrum, If I purchase your Steam Profile Integration resource, and you decided not to renew the license anymore, I lose the ability to install it since it disappears from the marketplace and I don't have any files locally? 

Sincerely the file local allows me to analyze the code and implement an IP.board resource with my site in Laravel, just like I did as Custom Links, now everything turns out more machinous. 

This is it in a nutshell. Those of us with significant investments and commitments in ongoing support of our communities understand that it is wholly unwise to leave ourselves at the mercy of individuals who may or may not continue supporting something critical, or continue maintaining an active license, or to assume that they have plans in place should they, for whatever reason, no longer be able to continue developing their resource.

We have historically looked at marketplace offerings as springboards that help us minimize our resources on getting new, needed functionality, yet with the understanding that anytime we add things to our installation, we now own the responsibility to ensure that we can take over continued support and development should the original developer no longer be available. In our plans for 4.4 to 4.5 migration, we've had to do this very thing and recreate functionality for marketplace purchases that are simply not being updated or where the developer has since left the building. Having access to those 4.4 files that we had previously stored in our code repositories made this compatibility task easier for our developers. Having dependencies like a need to integrate IPS extensions with Laravel or other frameworks or platforms is exactly the sort of thing that helps define how you should consider what and how you add things to IPS.

As I've shared before, we have found Not Good Things(tm) in the past from the resources we've downloaded, and have purchased resources only to find that the developer's implementation did not meet best practice guidelines and/or took steps that would put our community at risk by installing. That knowledge comes from having our developers audit those resources, install them in local development environments, and through our identifying and anticipating problems before they become incidents. The IPS folks here doing their absolute best to audit new resources should be commended for their efforts and talents, and it's great that they're increasing that effort. Yet it is fool hearty to think that they, or any small group of developers, would be well positioned to test for conflicts with a seemingly infinite number of configurations, back end systems, dependencies, and resources, and would not make errors in judgement or mistakes. We are all, after all, human.

Hobbyists and up and coming communities aren't worried about this. IPS' core market isn't worried about this. IPS sees this as a fringe case, where the benefits of turning off the ability to extract files from Marketplace in a downloadable format outweigh the incentives to turn it off. I understand their approach, and the business reasons for doing so.

Yet that understanding comes with the knowledge that the Marketplace we had in 4.4 is no more, and instead has been converted to some sort of imagined "Applesque" app store that caters to the lowest common denominator and that no longer meets the needs of customers like ourselves. If the equivalent of Steam Integration stops working for the local book club's forum, oh well. They'll survive and adapt. That's okay, and the change works for the people that comprise the core customer here. If integrating with Steam is the core of your community, you don't want to find yourself in that position.

It would have been nice to have had that shift in strategy and functionality communicated to us in some capacity in advance instead of finding out about it by surprise so we could have planned and anticipated for increases in budgeting for development time. When you consider simple things like IPS not maintaining a transparent versioning system, and instead favoring nebulous patches that only appear if you think to click the "something's wrong" button, we should remain cognizant that the focus of IPS right now seems to be on CIC and building their SaaS model and making things look as stable, magical, and seamless as possible for that market. From that vantage point, this all makes sense.

If your goal is to expand upon what others make available, or to maintain a solid operational continuity plan, or to understand what you're adding onto your installation, the understanding that purchasing something from 4.5's Marketplace is akin to "it will attempt to install and does whatever it does right now and that's your only guarantee, no looking under the hood, trust us, good luck in the future, not our problem" is something that should most definitely be informing how you use IPS' Marketplace.

Communities that are worried about these things would be wise to purchase resources directly from developers or create their own and bypass the new marketplace entirely, ensuring that they have the tools to pickup where that developer left off should the developer no longer be able to provide needed updates, stop renewing their license, become incapacitated in some way, or just have new interests.

[bosss]

Marketplace should be Airplace - because we buy air (space = nothing) without files is nothing at all!

And yes buying on developers site is only solution for me in future - never - never buying here because do not want buy air.

renewing after 6 months is shame should be better to call that like donation for pure developers!

[Aiwa]

8 hours ago, Eudemon said:

I agree, I developed my apps for my own website, decided to share in marketplace if other find any use

I didn't develop in intention to sell lot of copies

You make my point exactly. While you have graciously contributed to the MP, props given, you are not the type of developer that sells in the MP for a living. Such resources have a greater tendency to go unmaintained. Not saying you aren’t keeping your resource up to date. 

Many developers don’t just sell in the MP. They use their MP resources to get their name on the board with a reputation. Those devs then do contract work with private clients using IPS to truly make their living. 

We’ve most certainly strayed from the OP’s goal. 

Generally speaking, if you submit a ticket to IPS, and you’re not URL hoping frequently, they are sometimes gracious and do a reset without the fee. At least that was my experience some time ago. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Aiwa
typo

[The Old Man]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:48 PM, DesignzShop said:

So then what's the purpose to upgrade other than features which are only added during major upgrades? How's IPB supposed to turn a profit, pay devs, pay for support and other bills, taxes etc... etc... Renewals are a major asset to IPB or they wouldn't have them.

LOL? Of course they need to charge for renewals! I never suggested otherwise. I was referring to the practice of restricting security and vulnerability patches to active license holders only. 

Yes, we have to pay for the new feature updates by renewing our licences and we also get continued access to all the other perks like spam reduction, tech support, etc. Rightly so.

 

[DesignzShop]

1 hour ago, The Old Man said:

I was referring to the practice of restricting security and vulnerability patches to active license holders only. 

I understood exactly what you were saying. As I said before, feature updates usually come along during a major upgrade like what we just seen for 4.5. That means most of the time what you are getting on standard upgrades are bug fixes, security and vulnerability patches,. That's a long time between feature upgrade versions. incentive must be provided for renewals. Security and vulnerability patches are just that. Incentive to pay for renewals. Plus it pays the person who takes the time to fix the breach.

If IPB just gave this away, you'd have many not renew at all. To keep paying people and running a business you can't just open up the freeloader lane..

As a matter of fact, I never really used the paid for features with my license, Not even spam prevention most of the time. Really never needed it. I always renewed for security patches to keep my investment safe. When a security breach is identified someone works to fix it. They should get paid. Yes?

I'm not trying to be harsh here. I think you've been a outstanding member here The Old Man, I'm just a firm believer people need to eat and get paid for what they do. If they volunteer to do something for free that's a whole other story. That's not the case however when you work at or run a business.

Edited September 5, 2020 by DesignzShop

[Haku2]

1 hour ago, DesignzShop said:

I understood exactly what you were saying. As I said before, feature updates usually come along during a major upgrade like what we just seen for 4.5. That means most of the time what you are getting on standard upgrades are bug fixes, security and vulnerability patches,. That's a long time between feature upgrade versions. incentive must be provided for renewals. Security and vulnerability patches are just that. Incentive to pay for renewals. Plus it pays the person who takes the time to fix the breach.

If IPB just gave this away, you'd have many not renew at all. To keep paying people and running a business you can't just open up the freeloader lane..

As a matter of fact, I never really used the paid for features with my license, Not even spam prevention most of the time. Really never needed it. I always renewed for security patches to keep my investment safe. When a security breach is identified someone works to fix it. They should get paid. Yes?

I'm not trying to be harsh here. I think you've been a outstanding member here The Old Man, I'm just a firm believer people need to eat and get paid for what they do. If they volunteer to do something for free that's a whole other story. That's not the case however when you work at or run a business.

There's a big difference between bug fixes and security fixes; the second one is a liability. When there is security hazard with a vehicle, the manufacturer issues a recall to fix the issue free of charge. In regards to a developer getting paid to write the security patch, most of the patches are usually only a few lines long at best. I can't imagine this taking more than several minutes for an experienced developer. Furthermore, alot of times, when it relates to web-based software, the patch is provided by a vulnerability research website that discovered/published the issue.

There are many other incentives IPS can provide to encourage people to renew their license. One of them is actually adding new features, not removing them as I have seen in the last few major releases. Why would I renew to get updates that remove functionality from the software? Furthermore, there are many things that people have been asking for since the last few major releases that have yet to be added.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Haku2

[CoffeeCake]

1 hour ago, DesignzShop said:

I always renewed for security patches to keep my investment safe. When a security breach is identified someone works to fix it. They should get paid. Yes?

I imagine that what @The Old Man was trying to say was not that these security patches should be given away in such a manner that IPS eats the cost, but that the expected overhead to make corrections when the vendor ships faulty code for individuals with a lapsed support contract should be factored into the initial price of the product. That may very well mean a price increase up front, with assurances on the back end.

A security vulnerability or bug in IPS means that IPS shipped a product with a fault. A mistake was made, and that fault should be responsibly corrected by the vendor within a pre-agreed upon window of time. IPS works instead right now on a sort of subscription model. You get fixes so long as you maintain an active support contract. Software is sold many different ways, and this is just how IPS happens to do business.

[DesignzShop]

I don't buy into it. In software systems nothing is fully secure. You take it as it comes. That's been common knowledge since day 1.

[Aiwa]

2 hours ago, DesignzShop said:

I don't buy into it. In software systems nothing is fully secure. You take it as it comes. That's been common knowledge since day 1.

First, there is nothing ‘common’ about common knowledge 😄 Same goes for common sense. 😄 

Different companies have different business models. No one of those models is ‘wrong’, they are just different. 

You can compare Apple’s App Store or Google store or Xenforo or vB to IPS’ model, each serves a different market. 

Bottom line, there is no right or wrong. There is healthy debate to see if the model can be steered. Keeping in mind steering ‘left’ may not be good for those who desire it to steer ‘right’. 

I also think IPS is doing right by the developers by holding off commission increases until COVID settles down. 

Another thing to note here, with the Marketplace in the ACP, developers have a broader reach, which hopefully means more sales, which I’d like to hope means developers keep their resources up to date. 

[KT Walrus]

I suggest that IPS require all Marketplace downloads have the dev files for maintaining the download should the developer disappear available as a separate download. You can charge extra to download the dev files (say a fixed fee of $10 per Marketplace purchase) if you want to generate a little more revenue for the developers.

I certainly have been very hesitant to install a Marketplace app/plugin if I am not sure I can easily take over maintaining the software myself (or hire someone else). Having the DEV files for the all software I deploy on my site is a requirement for me, and I would have to think for others as well.

[Day_]

Not wanting to get anyones backs up with this but I've read all 3 pages and feels like IPS are under attack here, maybe justifiably so in some cases, but just wanted to chime in and go against the grain, I'm happy with IPS terms and conditions and have no issues keeping an active licence for your continued development and support. 

11 years in having been through vBulletin, Xenforo to get here my members have never been happier with the platform. 

My forum is monetised well and covers all costs, renewal fees are just part of the outgoings to ensure my community is refreshed with new features and security fixes.

[CoffeeCake]

5 hours ago, KT Walrus said:

You can charge extra to download the dev files (say a fixed fee of $10 per Marketplace purchase) if you want to generate a little more revenue for the developers.

This is a fantastic idea.