Linux-Is-Best

47 minutes ago, Arantor said:

There is one option that could be considered and I am here to... firmly... attempt to discourage it.

It is possible to roll your own editor from scratch. SMF did it back in the day for 2.0 though it was realised how much pain it would be to maintain and it will be dropped in 2.1 (and the bbcode-based editor they moved to has many of the 'standard' WYSIWYG editor issues that most contentEditable based editors have). The LMS Moodle rolled its own a few years ago to get away from TinyMCE but it's not without its pain, and even now it does some strange things - which is awkward given that it is implemented throughout the platform everywhere for basically any non-trivial text entry. Some very strange bugs manifested.

IPS has the technical skills in house to roll their own editor... please don't.

Would I suggest CKEditor 5? I don't know. Having done extensive stuff in CKEditor 4 in the past, I know I have huge reservations using CKEditor again in a project - but I have similar ones for using TinyMCE as well for much the same reason - they're pretty massive and bring their own maintenance nightmares.

Gutenberg on the other hand I'd firmly discourage for a general purpose editing experience; it's viable for admin level content creation. IPS Pages for example potentially might leverage something on that scale - but for general posting? Probably not.

Thank you for bringing this up. I completely agree. 💡

The ordeal from that particular development (Simple Machines Forums) was a nightmare. It is still a nightmare, and the development has been working on v2.1 for over a decade with no release in sight.  I agree. Their efforts in trying to take on their own editor have more or less killed that development. I do not think anyone here has suggested that Invision try to do the same (nor should they).

The suggestion was that Invision looks into deploying a different editor and has nothing remotely associated with asking them to develop their own. I don't think anyone would wish for that (I certainly would not).

As you pointed out, CKEditor has, throughout the years, left a lot to be desired. I suggested that another editor be considered because I also have huge reservations about using CKEditor again in a project. When I started using CKEditor 5, I was hopeful. I bought into the hype that it was a redesigned editor built from the ground up. But that hope has dwindled and is long gone. Many of the issues I had with CKEditor, including its development phase and cycle, carried on. Because at the end of the day, it is still the same development by overall the same company with the same developers, making some of the same mistakes.

Thank you for adding your thoughts on the matter. I am very grateful you brought that up. 👍

Please forgive the odd request, but if someone within the Invision would be so kind as to please active and then ban the user account @Banned-User-Test that would be most helpful.  It is my sincere intention to test the community from a banned user perspective. I like to be thorough when testing a new product in development.

Thank you in advance for indulging my particularly eccentric request.

On 5/13/2021 at 5:54 AM, Sonya* said:

I think there are two different use cases:

• Editor for user-generated content. Should be simple, not too many options, clear and foolproof. I think that the actual IPS editor fulfills the requirement.
• Editor for articles wrote by admin. Should be powerful, have many options (text positioning, blocks, columns, grids, custom code pieces, custom styles, extendable with SEO and other plugins, have additional extensions via Marketplace etc.) For this case, the actual IPS editor is not enough. 

I use CKEditor 5 already on another development (outside of Invision). As an editor for user-generated content, it sometimes gets in the way and often in more ways than its competitors. I accept that no editor (or software in general) will be perfect. Issues happen. It is, as they say, 'an imperfect world.' But I have discovered through experience just how much more imperfect CKEditor can be.  

I am not going to tell you it is the worse editor on the market. But it is also not the greatest either, and I believe that opinion has gone well beyond just a personal preference. I continuously receive comments and issues from users about the editor, notably how it will render vastly differently between mobile browsers and browser versions excessively. This wouldn't be so bad if we did not have to wait months for updates. Experiencing issues that can last months on the internet is painful. On average, 2-4 months between patch fixes. https://github.com/ckeditor/ckeditor5/releases and https://ckeditor.com/cke4/release-notes Add in the fact that a development like Invision needs to test these patch fixes before releasing them. And you have another 1-2 months on top of your wait (for an average of a 3-6 month turnaround).

When you compare CKEditor's release cycle to Redactor, for example, which releases a patch between 1-2 months (sometimes every few weeks), you begin to understand that a more active and modern development will experience less of a turnaround. Even when incorporating the time used by a development like Invision to test things out on their end. https://imperavi.com/redactor/log/

I absolutely agree. When looking for an editor for articles written by admin, we can do better. But I also believe when looking for an editor for user-generated content, we can also do better than CKEditor. An editor should go largely unnoticed and be simple and easy to use, as you have said. I agree. On the surface, one would assume that should be true for CKEditor. But from experience, it (CKEditor) is what often gets in the way, and the resolves are few and far between.

On 5/8/2021 at 2:54 PM, Tenebrous said:

Hi guys, any idea what is error EX1142? My forum literally stopped working overnight. I did not change/modify anything in months... The website starts, but I can't read threads, I can't login, it keeps saying that there was an error EX1142...

Hello @Tenebrous Performing a quick search here on the forum resulted in this result (see link below). Assuming the error code has not changed, this could point you to the solution.

1 hour ago, Mr 13 said:

Gutenberg 

It took me a while to realize that the whole page was the demo and that you could change anything on the page.  Usually, when I see an editor demo, they confine it into a box somewhere on the page, not the whole page.  I am not complaining. I am only pointing out that fact, so others who visit your suggestion are not confused about where the demo is located.  😉

4 hours ago, jesuralem said:

I honestly don't give a sh*t about what editor is used as long the user experience is satisfactory, and I think it is at the moment.

Of course if migrating to V5 requires as much work as migrating to another editor IPS should definitely benchmark all options and I have no reason to believe they won't. But it is really their problem in the end.

Yes.

I invite everyone to check out the suggested demo I linked in my OP post.  Please, do, test the page load times, responsiveness, and mobile usage of the editors.  For those of you who are more skilled and who are able, I also invite you to check out the underlined code.  Do compare and see for yourself (absolutely).

• CKEditor 5 -- https://ckeditor.com/ckeditor-5/demo
• TinyMCE -- https://www.tiny.cloud/docs/demo
• Froala -- https://froala.com/wysiwyg-editor
• Quill -- https://quilljs.com
• Redactor -- https://imperavi.com/redactor

These, of course, are only a small handful of possibilities.  There are many other alternative editors available, and if anyone would like to suggest something else, please do.

4 hours ago, Matt said:

We're very much aware of CKEditor 5.

As mentioned above, the migration to v5 isn't a simple case of dropping in the new files. We'd need to re-code all of our custom plugins that handle many things including embedding, drag and drop uploading and much more.

CKEditor 4 is supported until 2023. While CKEditor 5 brings many useful new things, it's not urgent enough for us to "down tools" and focus a 6-12 week block on it.

It's on our roadmap along with other javascript improvements that we want to develop and deploy.

Hello @Matt

Thank you for following up with my requested inquiry (and feature request to change the editor in the future).  I understand we have two (2) years to consider this, plenty of time for the development team to explore their options. In fact, that is why I made the request now, as opposed to later. I understood changing an editor would be an in-depth process and not a decision that could be made hastily. So it made perfect sense to make my inquiry now, as opposed to making this inquiry moments before CKEditor becomes the end of life.

I am currently using CKEditor 5 in another development. I have not been amused anymore than I am with CKEditor 4.  Most notably, the issues I experience have to do with how CKEditor works with mobile designs and layouts.  As I previously said, ideally, you want your editor not to be the focus of your development. By that, I mean to say the editor should blend effortlessly in the background as something you do not notice (an afterthought). So many developments no longer use CKEditor because the editor itself often gets in the way. I cannot count how many times when I have heard or experienced why something was not functioning right because of the editor. Or why something could not be developed or extended because of the editor. The editor (CKEditor) is not the afterthought it should be. Even here on Invision, the editor and its limited functionality has proven problematic by the sheer request to work around it https://invisioncommunity.com/search/?q=editor&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=499

I want the good folks within Invision to know that I and many here respect where you have been taking your development. I like all the many features you have incorporated, and I am excited to see where Invision may be going in the future.  But the editor (CKEditor) is indeed something of an annoyance. I currently have no doubt when Invision decided to use CKEditor; at the time, it was the best option available. Times change.

I do not expect Invision to change editors overnight. As previously pointed out, it is not easy to change editors or upgrade editors. I do not expect an editor change in the next release.  My request was for the far-off future, perhaps Invision Community 5.0 (whenever that happens). Again, we have a whole two (2) years before CKEditor reaches the end of life. Plenty of time for the Invision team to explore their options available.

I hope (and request) that Invision explores their options during that time and hopefully decides on a different editor in the future.

1 hour ago, Joey_M said:

I can't pretend to know much about the different types of editors, but I actually like CKEditor. There's been no issues, that I've personally experienced with it.

IPS should base their decision on a mix of things, not what's now trendy or fashionable.

I'm not suggesting anyone feels this way, but I do know CKEditor isn't something that will disappear over night. It's also well supported, has useful add-ons. If, other editors are stable, user friendly, responsive and isn't going to fall off the face of the earth then fair enough.

But I don't feel a change is needed for the sake of it, it's got to be balanced and we'll thought out.

Requiring to change again in the near future can put people off, I don't think members care about this function - provided it's simply, easy to use and does its job.

To clarify:

• TinyMCE - since 2004 (17 years)
• Froala - The parent company (Idera, Inc.) since 2000 (21 years), the editor since 2013 (8 years)
• Quill - since 2013 (8 years)
• Redactor - since 2009 (12 years)

Nothing I have suggested is a short-term 'fly-by-night' type of company. They are it for the long run. 😉 

1 hour ago, Morrigan said:

Okay. Which at face value, to me, is a database record from the pages app to a forum topic since this is an IPS support forum. 😉 

😂 Exactly, and people do import database records into Invison too. Nothing unusual at face value. 😉

1 hour ago, Morrigan said:

To be clear I believe they are talking about a pages database to a topic which is not natively possible. 

That is a possibility. I had only taken their question at face value.

@niKee to follow-up. If you are looking to import something that was not previously a forum or a forum not currently supported, if it is essential to you and worth the cost and time to have it developed, you can inquire about having an importer developed here https://invisioncommunity.com/forums/forum/506-requests/ 

29 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

@niKee at this time, there is not. No.

I wouldn't say I like this answer. 😅  The overall answer is "yes." Virtually (almost) any content from any database can be converted. Out of the box? It depends on what the source is (was it a forum?). But even if a current important does not exist, you can have one developed. 

On 5/6/2021 at 7:27 PM, niKee said:

Hello!

There is a way to convert database records into forum topics?

What you are seeking is an importer. Invision offers more than a few forum software importers. I believe you can even import WordPress. But if you are looking to import a different product, you may need one developed. The overall answer to your question is yes.

20 hours ago, Chris027 said:

Hi Guys, I lock down my adminPC to specific IP addresses. Is there a list of IPS support IP addresses from which IPS would access my site that I can add to the allowed list, or do I need to disable this rule when I open a support ticket?

Hello @Chris027

While I am not a member of the Invision staff, I do have an answer. First, let me say, I think it is wonderful that you have taken such a proactive, conscious step in keeping your community safe and secure. But to answer your question, Invision, like many other internet-based companies, occasionally does have their employees work remotely (this is especially true during COVID-19).  As a result, it would be best to disable the IP Address whitelist temporarily when asking for support.

Back in the day (long ago), nearly every project and development I know about used CKEditor. In its heyday (gold age), WYSIWYG editors were still a relatively new concept (I feel old. ), and CKEditor was considered top of the line. Times have changed.

Ideally, you want your editor not to be the focus of your development. By that, I mean to say the editor should blend effortlessly in the background as something you do not notice (an afterthought). So many developments no longer use CKEditor because the editor itself often gets in the way.  I cannot count the many times when I have heard or experienced why something was not functioning right because of the editor.  Or why something could not be developed or extended because of the editor. The editor (CKEditor) is not the afterthought it should be.  Even here on Invision, the editor and its limited functionality has proven problematic by the sheer request to work around it https://invisioncommunity.com/search/?q=editor&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=499

Speaking personally, I love where Invision is going. I admire their creativity in where they are taking the development. I enjoy many of the features and am looking forward to the new features they have suggested they have planned. But I dislike the editor. It is my 'pet peeve' for Invision. I know of only two developments that still use CKEditor (the other is not a forum, and they use CKEditor 5). In both of them, I dislike the editor (v4 and 5). Why? Because in both of them, nearly all the issues I encounter, all the bugs I stumble upon, and all lack of functionality and adaptability surround CKEditor.  Besides Invision, only vBulletin, whose market share is shrinking and development has become stagnant, concerning forum software, still uses CKEditor.   

I do not expect Invision to change editors overnight. As SeNioR- pointed out, it is not easy to change editors, not even to CKEditor 5.  So regardless of the discission (whether we stay with CKEditor or change editors), we are still looking at a large transition. We have two (2) years to think this through and explore our options before CKEditor 4 reaches the end of life. Plenty of time to think this over.

You'll note I did not specify any particular editor (besides a few examples I gave). My request is not to promote any specific one, only that an exploratory investigation be conducted and that Invision considers their options.

1 hour ago, IP-Gamers said:

In Bing, Webmaster is marked with a red cross. What's wrong with her?

I am sorry, but I know nothing about Bing. I focus most of my SEO (search engine optimization) with Baidu and occasionally Google in mind.  Sorry, I could not be of further help. 😞

16 minutes ago, GoDuBois said:

they are local traffic cams. I created a page and added the cams so there is a no-cache and refresh code in the header. You can see that on the page source.

<iframe frameborder="0" height="310" src="https://www.godubois.com/CAMS/DuBois1.html" width="360"></iframe><br>

https://www.godubois.com/CAMS/DuBois1.html

 

here you can see the cam:

http://www.godubois.com/CAMS/DuBois1.html

I am sorry to tell you there will be no way to overcome this. Looking at your source, which is the state of Pennsylvania website, not all their site is using HTTPS. For example, if you try to visit http://www.dot35.state.pa.us/public/Districts/District2/WebCams/CAM02022CCTV26.jpg it works, but https://www.dot35.state.pa.us/public/Districts/District2/WebCams/CAM02022CCTV26.jpg does not contain a certificate (it is not HTTPS enabled). Since this is not your website, it is outside of your control.

Just a quick follow-up for you @GoDuBois The good folks at Mozilla have some helpful documentation concerning the general usage of iframes concerning web standards.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/iframe

It may be worth a little read for future reference. 👍

35 minutes ago, GoDuBois said:

Thank You, I think that's it.
Is there a work around for that problem?

Hello @GoDuBois

I am sorry to hear you are experiencing this problem. I understand how frustrating that can be. Though I have good news, the solution is simple. You will want to use HTTPS for both (including your iframe code). Mixed content (secure and insecure) is considered bad practice. Your web browser is protecting you by design.

If you are still experiencing an issue. Can you please share with us your iframe code?

3 hours ago, AlienOrigins said:

And the sound of crickets.....What does that tell you dude?

It tells me that a support question with 2 pages worth of post, over a week old, is likely already answered and may go unnoticed. If you were trying to suggest that the lack of a speedy reply was a guaranteed method to detect how vital something is or not, that would be a poor choice of judgment. Especially considering this is all happening on the weekend evening (Saturday, evening) when most folks are not keeping business hours. The comment you are addressing was posted on a Friday evening when most people have "punched out" for the weekend. But I digress. Just because someone has not rushed to provide a detailed explanation (in your presumed time frame) does not imply anything is safe or not.

Respectfully, @Square Wheels, I would not take @AlienOrigins seriously concerning this matter. He/she started this thread expecting people to read his/her mind (not even explaining what the issue was). When folks pointed out that this warning was by design, for your protection, he/she basically said he/she does not care. 

As a rule of thumb  @Square Wheels you should avoid exposing your site to anything that could cause it harm. Keeping your site safe is not going to hinder your usage. My test site has 13 different developments, for example (domaintaken.org), and everything works. I do not need to make my site less secure to have things function. Anyone telling you not to worry about security, in general, I do not believe has your best interest in mind.

What do we want? Invision 4.6! When do we want it? Now!  😂 

All jokes aside, I am going to be the one who issues a side of caution. I also would like to play with all the new bells and whistles, but I would rather a reasonably stable, functional product over a quick release with tremendous issues. For that reason, I would like to see Invision push out another alpha (or early beta) here on the live site before even pushing out a public beta. More than a few items have been labeled as fixed in the bug tracker, which I still see relevant here, and since possible significant changes have been made, I think it best we test them out here first. Rushing a release will not benefit anyone in the long run. The moment the first public beta (download) is available, you know there will be those people who will question everything, putting unwarranted pressure on the development.

I just would like to see 1 more notice about an applied update, giving us the chance to dig deep once more before the public beta.

I appreciate all the hard work and time the development team has been pushing through. I also want to thank everyone here who has been helping by providing detailed bug reports. Keep up the good work, everyone. 😇

p.s. Bug reports? Linux-Is-Best what on earth are you talking about? https://invisioncommunity.com/4bugtrack/ <-- If you see something, say something, please.

3 hours ago, Rikki said:

Important note: Don't enable this setting for any untrusted groups (e.g. regular users).

So I was right to assume the current implication was not safe?

Then my feature request is valid. I would like to have this option in a manner that was safe.

1 minute ago, Nathan Explosion said:

Unless I'm missing something here...just enable your group's "Can post HTML" setting, and then click the resulting 'Source' button in the Editor:

I do not see the "source" button here on the support forum, and I presume it is a permission setting for good reason. The development I am comparing against has this function by default for everyone (safely). Is this something that can not be implemented here too?

Please excuse the unusual title. I am attempting to word this so even someone who is computer illiterate could understand my suggestion to see if my suggestion is a shared interest. 

In the old days of BBcode, you could press a button (within the editor) that allowed you to review the underline code used to format the display. My suggestion is not that we go back to BBcode but merely add the functionality to precisely review how the layout is formatted (as an option).

The attached screenshot is another development which I will NOT be named as it would be rude and inconsiderate to promote a different development on Invision's support forum. And while it may seem cliche to say, 'can we do something that one of your competitors is doing?' I only mean to demonstrate this to clarify precisely what I am suggesting by presenting a working visual demonstration. 

The editor processes HTML just like Invision's editor. The only difference and what I would propose to be added in a future release, if possible, is the functionality to switch between the display editor and the raw code (as demonstrated in this screenshot). 

Is this something we could possibly consider? Thank you for your time and consideration. 😀