I'm no longer a client?

[GrooveOnBeat]

There's no mention in the EULA that the license expiration notice must be there.

Lindy said it himself, it's a business decision and will not encourage IPS license holders to remove the notice nor post instructions on how to do it on this site. He, however, never stated that the notice cannot be removed. While the license agreement can be amended at any given time, a continuous or recurring nag notice that the license has expired on top of the forum (regardless if only Admins can see it) is questionable practice. Had it been a part of the license agreement prior of purchase than I can see IPS's argument to disallow the removal of the expiration notice. Because of privacy laws, clients have the right to opt out of notices received through email and other means. That is the client's choice. A nag notice is one way of getting around such law. IPS may not see it that way and may call it whatever they want, but it is what it is.

Others have suggested to have a nag notice that is cookie-based or disabled via ACP. And/Or another option is to only show the nag notice to the person(s) who own the license or have access to the support system. I see no reason for other members of a community to see the notice.

[Morrigan]

I think (without re-doing the other topic) a sensible compromise for all would be to have it permanently on display in the ACP (the same as it was in 3x) but have either a 'dismiss' button on it on the front end or an admin setting to not show it (front end only, admin side should *always* show this)

I can see the value in some way of having a front end message as not all admins will live in their ACP after all.

Although a 'dismiss this message' link on it would be straightforward I do feel a setting (yes, sorry another setting) would be more ideal in the longer term. As long as it was on by default that is.

I think on this note I think I agree. I allow moderators to have limited access to the ACP so they will likely see this notification as they are added via the "Administrators" under the core members app but they aren't necessarily administrators.

[Lindy]

 

a notice appears at the top of your forum if you have not paid !!!!!  that's really out of order

the software was already paid for, on going fees are for support and updates.

I presume this is on v4 ?  

That is not fully accurate. I don't want to split hairs, but please remember that you purchased a license to use the software -- you didn't purchase the software. Ongoing fees are to keep your license active -- it so happens that includes support and updates, however, it also includes spam mitigation, chat, active client status within IPS systems, etc. When you don't renew, it's not just a case of "no updates or support for you" your license is expired and that is the message being conveyed accordingly.

There are several reasons the message now appears on the front end as well. 1) Not everyone visits their ACP on a daily basis. Personally, I sometimes go weeks without logging into the ACP here. Many don't realize their license is expired until their communities are overrun with spam due to the spam service shutting off, or something happens with their community and they need immediate support, only to find out their license isn't active -- ultimately leading to delays while the the license is renewed. In the case of many larger clients, the person responsible for renewing doesn't even visit the community but on the rarest of occasions - the message shows to all admins so they too can be proactive. 2) In the interest of transparency, we are indeed a commercial entity - we don't hide that fact. New purchases keep the lights on. Renewals drive growth and continued development. Evil, greedy, awful conspiracy theories aside, yes, of course we're going to encourage continued growth for everyone's benefit.   

Incidentally, many actually complained we weren't forceful enough with IPB. I can't count the number of "I didn't notice the e-mail that my license was expired, now my site is full of spam!" tickets we've received... or "I don't check my ACP every day and didn't see there was an update, now I've been hacked!" So, in IPS4, we've put more on the front-end. Critical security issues are shown on the front-end now and cannot be dismissed, so you can either live with the message and risk compromise or apply the update (which will soon be one-click from the ACP!) License expirations are also, as noted, shown on the front end. 

Ultimately, the message is mutually beneficial to most. If you're one that only renews out of absolute necessity every couple of years, I can see how you might be a bit annoyed, but I can't say that suggesting/demanding what should happen after your license expires is an entirely reasonable expectaion. We do not shut the software down, nor turn off features other than hosted services (such as spam, chat, etc.) -- but you should not expect it to be entirely "business as usual" nor view renewals exclusively for support and updates. 

The message can be dismissed and if you're so inclined, there's nothing currently in the license agreement that would prohibit you from removing the notice on the front-end via templates, though you would of course be on your own in doing so and it's not appropriate to get into the detailed how-to's here. Most that willfully let their license lapse for a period of time have a certain degree of technical confidence, so it shouldn't be an issue for those folks to remove from the global template.

Whether you're an active client or not, we do appreciate your business - past and present. 

[socceronly]

I think people need to spend some time with companies that actually suck.

[craigf136]

When you don't renew, it's not just a case of "no updates or support for you" your license is expired and that is the message being conveyed accordingly.

My only issue with this from previous discussion on the subject is, if the license has expired and use of the software is still permitted then the license to "use" the software has "not" expired but support, updates and additional features and benefits has. Unless this is changing? the license to use the software without renewing has not expired or will we be running the software unlicensed and subject to additional charges for usage without license or pursuit to our hosting for running the software unlicensed for example?

It may be semantics but clarity on whether this is changing or being discussed needs to be clarified.

I think people need to spend some time with companies that actually suck.

I've spent time with companies that suck, IPS isn't one of them for sure but sometimes clarity is required.

[GrooveOnBeat]

My only issue with this from previous discussion on the subject is, if the license has expired and use of the software is still permitted then the license to "use" the software has "not" expired but support, updates and additional features and benefits has. Unless this is changing? the license to use the software without renewing has not expired or will we be running the software unlicensed and subject to additional charges for usage without license or pursuit to our hosting for running the software unlicensed for example?

It may be semantics but clarity on whether this is changing or being discussed needs to be clarified.

No, there will be legal repercussions if that were the case. IPS is not in a position to do that without having some fallout. The license to use is perpetual as it stands. If they ever choose to change their license agreement, it will be for future purchases.  

[Misi]

I've spent time with companies that suck, IPS isn't one of them for sure...

 

No, they are not.

Sooner or later they will deliver a usable script.

[craigf136]

Perpetual licenses are no longer offered by IPS.

[GrooveOnBeat]

Perpetual licenses are no longer offered by IPS.

If after my access to downloads, updates, and support has expired, I am permitted to continue using the software indefinitely under the licensing terms. There Is nothing in the EULA that says otherwise.

 

License Renewals

---

Our self-hosted licenses renew on a six-month basis, and provide ongoing access to support, software and services. If you do not renew by your expiration date, your software will continue to function. However, support, software downloads and additional services will be unavailable until you renew.

---

What's included?

• Ongoing access to new software versions, including major updates
• Technical support for the entire renewal period
• The IPS Spam Monitoring Service, to protect your community against spam
• Access to the IPS Marketplace for new themes and addons
• Free 5-user chatroom
• Customer-only peer-to-peer support forums

[craigf136]

 

[Hexsplosions]

Sooner or later they will deliver a usable script.

Interesting. Please elaborate.

[GrooveOnBeat]

At the time of purchase the EULA was and has always been that the software will continue to function after support has expired. The way "perpetual" has been used in that thread below is confusing.

Interesting read. However..

     On Friday, June 06, 2014 4:07:03, Tripp_UK said:

Can someone explain in clear English just what's going on? My little head just isn't comprehending. To make matters worse it seems a lot of what is said is based off of... I don't even know what, and Lindy has been helpful but I don't see what the problem is... Yet.

As far as I was aware:

A perpetual license is:-

• You can use it indefinitely
• If you want to update the software you have to have an active license.
• Etc.

Yet despite the title all I'm really seeing is stuff that doesn't affect perpetual license holders, just "Legacy" which I assume paid for the product and got free updates.

If you really are cutting perpetual licenses... Does that mean we can only use the software during the license period? How does this affect everyone?

Lindy's response:

This wouldn't impact you at all, or anyone else (generally speaking) who purchased after 2006. This only impacts legacy customers.

 

[EmpireKicking]

looks outta legit

[craigf136]

It is confusing.

Interesting read of the definition of "perpetual" - the quote below is what I see as being relevant in this case with IPS, although they haven't said otherwise it does imply they can if they so choose.

http://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2010/march/perpetual-software-licence-doesnt--last-forever-rules-court/

"I consider that this latter interpretation of the word 'perpetual' in the context of … the Variation Agreement is the correct one. On that interpretation … there is no incompatibility between … [it and the] Licence Agreement," he said. "Therefore, when the Defendant terminated the Support Agreement it also terminated the licence for it to use the MillMaster software."

 

[GrooveOnBeat]

It is confusing.

Interesting read of the definition of "perpetual" - the quote below is what I see as being relevant in this case with IPS, although they haven't said otherwise it does imply they can if they so choose.

http://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2010/march/perpetual-software-licence-doesnt--last-forever-rules-court/

 

The contract in this case was modified with both parties involved, but the provisions for termination was not detailed. Therefore the judge made the ruling.

In the context for this discussion, those who purchased a standard license since 2007 will not be affected, and those who own legacy licenses may not be affected. Lindy said it himself several times in the thread you quoted.

[Rhett]

If anyone needs clarification on a license on your account, please file a support ticket in customer service and we can address any specific questions or concerns you may have.

These types of questions and concerns are best addressed in this manner to avoid confusion and assumptions.

 

 

 

[GrooveOnBeat]

If anyone needs clarification on a license on your account, please file a support ticket in customer service and we can address any specific questions or concerns you may have.

These types of questions and concerns are best addressed in this manner to avoid confusion and assumptions.

Ok. Thanks, Rhett.

[Lindy]

I see the topic is now closed, however, I wanted to clarify a few points stemming from well-intentioned, but misinformed posts.

1. The reference to "perpetual licenses" will only to apply to about 1% of our clients (most have upgraded to the newer license structure.) We have not sold perpetual / legacy licenses since 2006. Everyone after that point, the other 99%, will be on the same license structure we have today. I'm sorry for the confusion on this - I think the term "perpetual" took this topic for an unexpected turn.

2. Regarding the EULA - we cannot retroactively change the EULA - this means, if you've accepted the EULA and are using 4.0.0, we cannot readily go back and change the terms applied to that. We absolutely can, however, change it for a new release and you may accept the terms or simply not use the new release. The belief that a EULA is tied to your purchase and that forever governs the terms of your use of the software is false (unless you never update the software beyond what was applicable at time of purchase, of course.) The EULA may (but rarely does) change from version to version and the options are to accept the new agreement, or not upgrade and not accept the new EULA. 

3. We do not force you to discontinue use of the software after your license has expired (which is not to be confused with canceled.) This has always been the case and we have no plans to change that fact. To be clear, you may continue to use the software as it was at time of expiration. This means the version and URL that applied when your license expired. It is clear license expiration and your associated rights need to be clarified in the EULA - I will work on that for a future version... the policy will not change, it will just be clearer.  

 

Finally, beyond what's already been mentioned and what's cited in the EULA regarding support, upgrades and services - we do not cripple functionality within the software. We do display an expiration warning, which, as mentioned, is not actively enforced on a license agreement level. For those citing contract law and EULA, we're intentionally trying to keep such things out of the EULA, for your benefit, as while we're not willing to simply add a toggle to turn it off altogether, it's currently a "hey, we're telling you that your license is expired -- if you're vehemently opposed to that and technically inclined, we don't explicitly prohibit you from gutting the message, though we don't encourage it" type of thing. I'm hoping we won't be pushed into a corner by misguided posts that question the "legality" of a message in our software. I really feel having to add a clause to the license agreement for clarity is a lose-lose for everyone. 

As Rhett mentioned, if you have questions on your account and license, it is best to contact customer service so we can be sure you're receiving the best and most accurate information as it applies to you. 

Hopefully this helps provide further clarity. I'm going to leave this closed as the well intentioned legal experts tend to make otherwise clear waters ever so slightly muddier. As always, please feel free to contact us (or me personally) with any questions or concerns. Thank you.