Where is the members list ?

[Izaya Orihara]

​Why would i stay with old software when i presumed new software would be at least be as good or even better then the old. If not then its time to re-evaluate what is needed and if needed go with new software. I will be not the first or last that will do this, the sum is easy what will i gain or lose and do i want to pay top dollar. As for now what i want can be done with other software and with 60% cut in cost.

​Oh I am not saying you aren't allowed to feel that way. by all means go for it.
I've gone elsewhere(I think twice) to XF and considered other platforms until I realized my site is working just fine on IPB and the software is a good product and for my needs only it is the best product. IPB 3.4.7 is fine for me and it is not broken and works well enough so if I had to stay it on another year, I'd be fine....and IPB4 for me looks spectacular and I'll upgrade as soon as my themes and select mods are ready.

I wish people would realize that this is a COMPLETE rewrite. This is not a marginal increase and I wish people would understand that out the gate things are going to be buggy as heck, Features get removed all the time from software only to make their way back in after the MAIN product is stable.

By all means reevaluate your choices, do you research and move to competing products if that suits your interest. I quickly realized that with moving to another software...they had their own shortcomings. I had to rely on 3rd party mods and hope the developers stayed active and played well with other mods I used(and we know the scandals that are popping up with various developers there).

By the time I paid for my renewal fees for that software plus the 3rd party mods renewal fees(which are usually higher in both initial cost and renewal, at least in my experience) I realized I was paying the same or even more than I was with IPB.

I've been there done that and wound up right back where I am from and I am willing to give this company an opportunity to bring a product out that is a complete rewrite instead of spending my time arguing/debating over trivial stuff and why it was removed.

 

[esquire]

I wish people would realize that this is a COMPLETE rewrite. This is not a marginal increase and I wish people would understand that out the gate things are going to be buggy as heck, Features get removed all the time from software only to make their way back in after the MAIN product is stable.

The problem has nothing to do with bugs. They sure as heck should have had some discussion with their most experienced user base over the past 2+ years to make sure that decisions don't cause serious problems to the product as a whole as used by the customers - the people who pay for the product. Right now the best thing I can say is that if the product is "stable" then there will be a bunch of horses that will be happy.

Opentype's own post encapsulates the gravity of the situation here. Anyone who has run a forum for a few years, including QA forums, would not make this type of mistake. Typically this type of thing happens in the boardroom, where someone who has used the Interwebs before says "Man, it would be awesome if we built our own Stack Exchange better than they did!!!!" Brilliant. But since IPB and the like are discussion forums, while they may look the same the flow is different. And if you wanted to construct something that would serve the purposes of a discussion forum AND a QA forum, there is a way to accomplish both. But some people thought this would suit them fine so it would suit the customers just fine too. And it doesn't. And even if they can fix this serious functional misstep by wedging the solution in, it's still a patch. And it may be many, many months until we see that fix. And many of these "innovations" are in a similar vein - potentially useful if a forum is brand new and does not deal with the actual activity of the IPS product as it has existed prior to IPS 4.

What concerns me is that my investment and focus for IPS was in the entire Suite. For the foreseeable future, I can't see anything other than blogs (rarely ever used, except by IPS to make announcements about IPS4) and Calendar (even less used) and Downloads (at least there is something) as usable modules. If I only wanted a forum (you keep referring to IPB) I could use something else. But even as a standalone forum I've got concerns. They have done what suits them in a vacuum, not discussed it. I'm not going to upgrade or convert my forums if they don't have post numbers so as to make years worth of old posts that make reference to them meaningful. No members page after you upgrade? Yes customers, you'll live with it and come to the forum to figure out what to do.

I didn't write this reply because I want to vent on IPS. It's to get those people that remain here to get the point across that if they don't open up the dialogue and accept that they may have taken a road less traveled, IPS will be the same as or even less than IPS 3 - a limited forum and very generalized set of modules that suits IPS but doesn't actually satisfy many customers. I see Charles has been active today. Perhaps someone at IPS can provide some insight as to what going forward plans are and how real usability issues like these will be addressed and perhaps some type of expectations for going forward.

[Izaya Orihara]

. It's to get those people that remain here to get the point across that if they don't open up the dialogue and accept that they may have taken a road less traveled, IPS will be the same as or even less than IPS 3 - a limited forum and very generalized set of modules that suits IPS but doesn't actually satisfy many customers.

​

Question for you. Who are these 'many' customers you are speaking of exactly?  I'd be curious to know. Because from my own experiences, most users are a bit frustrated with various bugs(understandable to a degree) and less about the features and what is offered and removed. The product certainly satisfies me and others. One thing that bothers me is when other people speak their opinions and gripes as indicative for the rest of us.

[esquire]

​

Question for you. Who are these 'many' customers you are speaking of exactly?  I'd be curious to know. Because from my own experiences, most users are a bit frustrated with various bugs(understandable to a degree) and less about the features and what is offered and removed. The product certainly satisfies me and others. One thing that bothers me is when other people speak their opinions and gripes as indicative for the rest of us.

​Answer: The same "many" customers who could easily understand the point of what I just said. It doesn't matter if your software is completely "bug free" if it isn't fit as a solution to the problem you're trying to solve. Please, kindly, let's quit trying so hard to sweep the issue under the rug as if it doesn't exist to prevent ruining morale. If the "fix" you hope for doesn't arrive because IPS doesn't agree with you, then what happens is that you're not using their new "features" because they aren't fit for the purpose you are/have been using IPS.

[不中用]

Solutions:

1. use search:

 

2. use Pages:

Setup your skeleton in Pages ACP how you want your member list to display, for the listing & for single record view ..

I guess there are allot of gamer sites here, it's not even a bad idea to add more data to it like scores, ranks, etc .. for your custom fields ..

Yes, I feel you already thinking .. can't do because pages custom database is not linked to member/profile data tables ..

so you write a MySQL script that runs like a cron or you can use MySQL event scheduler .. hourly run ..

Fill that Pages custom database with missing members from the core_member table or edit if edit date/times not match ..

If you open up IPS MySQL database you will get probably more ideas flowing, but keep it simple at start when you set it up .. it's not that hard at all ..

This way you can make the best member list ever what your heart desire ..

And you don't have to rely on CLICK & GO solutions that probably have a shortcoming all the time .. people never stop demanding when it becomes easy ..

[esquire]

2. use Pages:

Setup your skeleton in Pages ACP how you want your member list to display, for the listing & for single record view ..

I guess there are allot of gamer sites here, it's not even a bad idea to add more data to it like scores, ranks, etc .. for your custom fields ..

Yes, I feel you already thinking .. can't do because pages custom database is not linked to member/profile data tables ..

so you write a MySQL script that runs like a cron or you can use MySQL event scheduler .. hourly run ..

Fill that Pages custom database with missing members from the core_member table or edit if edit date/times not match ..

If you open up IPS MySQL database you will get probably more ideas flowing, but keep it simple at start when you set it up .. it's not that hard at all ..

This way you can make the best member list ever what your heart desire ..

And you don't have to rely on CLICK & GO solutions that probably have a shortcoming all the time .. people never stop demanding when it becomes easy ..

​Because nothing says "community" like IPS 4, which takes the community right out of IP.C and makes things even more difficult requiring MySQL scripting, custom programming and cron jobs. I think I saw someone say that this is what most customers here wanted.... Less is More.

 But thanks for trying to help. Honestly appreciated.

[We are Borg]

Solutions:

1. use search:

 

2. use Pages:

Setup your skeleton in Pages ACP how you want your member list to display, for the listing & for single record view ..

I guess there are allot of gamer sites here, it's not even a bad idea to add more data to it like scores, ranks, etc .. for your custom fields ..

Yes, I feel you already thinking .. can't do because pages custom database is not linked to member/profile data tables ..

so you write a MySQL script that runs like a cron or you can use MySQL event scheduler .. hourly run ..

Fill that Pages custom database with missing members from the core_member table or edit if edit date/times not match ..

If you open up IPS MySQL database you will get probably more ideas flowing, but keep it simple at start when you set it up .. it's not that hard at all ..

This way you can make the best member list ever what your heart desire ..

And you don't have to rely on CLICK & GO solutions that probably have a shortcoming all the time .. people never stop demanding when it becomes easy ..

​

1. Search is just an search if you look at the page i linked above you will see how much function you will lose.

2. So a members list you will now need IP.Pages then not many people have that add-on and not many can program it because its very technical for programming you need to understand a few programming languages.

[ram108]

Windows removed "Start button" as it was no needed. IPS removed member list  

Hope new member list will come in next release.

[Charles]

Windows removed "Start button" as it was no needed. IPS removed member list  

Hope new member list will come in next release.

​You should read this entire topic before posting something like that

You will see that most people understand the removal of the list plus we still have the ability to see a list: http://community.invisionpower.com/search/?type=core_members

[Adlago]

When you select sorting by "Post Count", try to look at page 2 or another ...

[SJ77]

​Seriously, guys, stop saying that. IT WAS NOT REMOVED. It was just moved from a single page (and default navigation entry linking there) to be a part of the search function. That’s it. 

You can discuss all day long how this function could be improved in the future, but stop saying the memberlist was removed. It is untrue and this has been pointed out many times now. 

@opentype I have seen you and others point this out several times. I want to quickly respond to the point though, It's not as though the current member list has anything useful. "as-is" is nothing good at all.  Let's not misrepresent what is there. What is available has been neutered so badly that it doesn't even meet what SMF could do in 2007. (See the attached screen shots.) IPB member list has basically no information of any kind, (not even post count) It's literately just a useless list of members.  That's not cool, come on man. I know you don't care about a member list be please stop acting like those of us  who want it should just take whats there and shut up. It's not good as is, and we want something useful. I don't see the harm in expressing that.

@esquire You raise an interesting perspective. There really is merit to your take on the approach IP leadership is taking with IP4. Let me share with you a little story. Earlier on in the development of IP4 I noticed that IPB wasn't making proper (or even useful) thumbnails. Also the image count under thumbnails is gone!  Image handling and the ability to post images in a post is incredibly important to my forum as I run an image forum. I was suppling feed back here about how I think things should work. My thread was well organized and was allowing my opinion and the opinions of others to be heard. We were discussing the topic in detail when out of nowhere my thread was locked!  LOCKED!! Can you believe it? I couldn't. I thought why on earth would any company silence the voice of their customers. I know many companies pay for consumer insight and here I am providing it for free and my thread was locked.. What the heck? I put a lot of hard work into that thread. Disappointed,  I appealed and was basically snubbed. It really shook me to the core and completely changed my opinion of IPB. I had an order ready for another license that I wanted to use on a additional site I run and I canceled it.  I spent $xxx with a competitor forum developer that day.  I know there is talk around here about 1000's of customers and how 1 doesn't matter, but that's one less sale they got on that day. Oh well.  

I was so upset I didn't even want to come back to this place but I decided to swallow my pride and try to continue contributing because in the end I still own 1 license and I think IP4 has big potential. I was hoping my experience was an isolated event . ..  I really hope the approach improves. 

On the plus side, some of the leadership really does seem to care and are good with people. Did you see Rikki's  reply earlier in the thread? What a cool dude. I get the impression that he genuinely cares about the needs of the customer. Maybe overall  it's a wash,  I still love IP, I am not ready to give up, I just wanted to share this story because I think it's relevant to what you have been talking about. 

[We are Borg]

​You should read this entire topic before posting something like that

You will see that most people understand the removal of the list plus we still have the ability to see a list: http://community.invisionpower.com/search/?type=core_members

​Charles have you even read the whole discussion? The member list in 3.4.x is far better then the one in IPB 4, with member list as search you lose lots of room for customization and function. In the old situation i had the option to press a tab A or B or C etc etc then sort those if i remember correctly it also had an own template that could be altered. In the new situation you'll need to edit a template that search uses.

[Charles]

​Charles have you even read the whole discussion? The member list in 3.4.x is far better then the one in IPB 4, with member list as search you lose lots of room for customization and function. In the old situation i had the option to press a tab A or B or C etc etc then sort those if i remember correctly it also had an own template that could be altered. In the new situation you'll need to edit a template that search uses.

​I have and a lot of people have pointed out the that members list was not a useful feature. While there is a ton of discussion about Member List of God 4.0 that really doesn't have any bearing on the old member list

 

[ram108]

plus we still have the ability to see a list: http://community.invisionpower.com/search/?type=core_members

​Yep. Now I am 100% sure about "Start button". There is a button, but not the same:

 

I just wanted to share this story because I think it's relevant to what you have been talking about. 

​

[ram108]

​I have and a lot of people have pointed out the that members list was not a useful feature. 

Just make the members list as a separate application available to install to the forum. That’s it.

[We are Borg]

​I have and a lot of people have pointed out the that members list was not a useful feature. While there is a ton of discussion about Member List of God 4.0 that really doesn't have any bearing on the old member list

 

What is not useful for one can be gold for another, just like the calendar. Some people use it others dont or use it in a way that you could not forsee just like the member list. What i see here on this forum is that many cant see the standpoint of the other party and why they find it useful and dont want an imitation.

[esquire]

@superj707 - Thanks for your encouraging words, honestly appreciated. I'd love to hang around and have been a fan here for a long time. But as time moves along (2+ years now in IPS4 development), I'm beginning to accept the decisions of other many experienced people and see the writing on the wall. I confess, my being a fan blinded me to this for a while. The IPS post about how responsive design renders a topic/thread title limit moot is very sad to me and an indicator of what is still happening here. Of course it's not a replacement or improvement. But members like @opentype seem more prone to argue at length instead of just admitting the obvious. Why? Because the community is fearful that this may make a bad reflection on IPS, new and potential customers, etc. And other customers will pile on to keep morale high. Hoorah! And I haven't seen anyone at IPS even just say "whoah.... yeah... what was that? My bad, let's rethink this one." No - it's an improvement, a rework, an enhancement - whatever. To use his same non-insulting metaphor, it looks like insecure children are running the school and I have no patience any more. Product and progress is needed, not euphemisms.

After 2+ years of waiting, I have to make hard decisions about my sites since they needed to adapt to a forward moving platform 2 years ago. My confidence level is at an all time low. IP.C has become the great unknown even for IPS. And when Charles tells us they are performing a use case study only after they made radical departures from IPS 3, it tells me that IPS4 is what they want it to be and how users actually used IPS 3 doesn't matter. Had they done this beforehand, they wouldn't have screwed up the Best Answer architecture in a way few could ever have conceived. I really like @Lindy a ton and would love to give him more time so we can see "the big picture." But at 2+ years I prefer to move somewhere where there is actual product, not still figuring it all out. And if they believe that "the community" will make mods for all the stuff they deemed obsolete, then remember that some of us were around when IPB 3 came out. Lindy, I think you're awesome - thanks for your support. I'm just expressing how I feel at the moment.

[Charles]

I am sorry you feel that way, esquire. I do hope you have good luck finding a product that fits all your needs. Please consider checking back here in perhaps 6 months and see where we are then.

[opentype]

I know you don't care about a member list be please stop acting like those of us who want it should just take whats there and shut up.

​I didn’t say anything like that. I was simply correcting wrong statements. Some said the memberlist was “removed”. Or “you cannot sort it” an things like that. These things are untrue. That’s why I chimed in. To correct untrue statements. That’s all. 

But if you say: “the new memberlist as part of search offers less information and sorting options”. Well, that is a completely different statement. I would agree to this statement because it is also simply a fact. And I also agree that it might be useful to improve this in the coming releases. Even though it might not be very relevant for my sites, I have enough imagination to see how an improved memberlist would be beneficial to a lot of IPS sites. 

If I challenge things you guys say, mind that I just challenge a certain point you made. I am not necessarily “against you” or want the “opposite of what you want”. I might actually be on your side, just pointing out problems with your argumentation in order to improve your argumentation. 

[SJ77]

​I didn’t say anything like that. I was simply correcting wrong statements. Some said the memberlist was “removed”. Or “you cannot sort it” an things like that. These things are untrue. That’s why I chimed in. To correct untrue statements. That’s all. 

But if you say: “the new memberlist as part of search offers less information and sorting options”. Well, that is a completely different statement. I would agree to this statement because it is also simply a fact. And I also agree that it might be useful to improve this in the coming releases. Even though it might not be very relevant for my sites, I have enough imagination to see how an improved memberlist would be beneficial to a lot of IPS sites. 

If I challenge things you guys say, mind that I just challenge a certain point you made. I am not necessarily “against you” or want the “opposite of what you want”. I might actually be on your side, just pointing out problems with your argumentation in order to improve your argumentation. 

​Thank you for your clarification. I have said it before, and I still think that you've been very good with your communication here. I appreciate all the thought you put into your posts even if we don't always see eye to eye on issues. I have yet to see you make a point that you can't support with well thought out logic. Thanks again.

[The Jimmo]

​Charles have you even read the whole discussion? The member list in 3.4.x is far better then the one in IPB 4, with member list as search you lose lots of room for customization and function. In the old situation i had the option to press a tab A or B or C etc etc then sort those if i remember correctly it also had an own template that could be altered. In the new situation you'll need to edit a template that search uses.

​The only difference between the current member list in IPS4 and my BONE STOCK member list in IPB3.4 is post count. Are we arguing 6 pages over post count?

[Square Wheels]

Today I was looking for a member who hadn't been on in a while.  I simply wanted to go to the memberlist to see the last time they were here, instead I needed to search.

I also like it to sort a list of members by their join date.

I agree not everyone needs it, but some of us do, and some of us liked it.

I will wait for someone to develop a good add-on, and I will even be willing to pay for it.

[We are Borg]

​

​You should read this entire topic before posting something like that

You will see that most people understand the removal of the list plus we still have the ability to see a list: http://community.invisionpower.com/search/?type=core_members

​Charles have you even read the whole discussion the member list in 3.4.x is far better then the one in IPB 4, with member list as search you lose lots of room for customization and function. In the old situation i had the option to press a tab A or B or C etc etc then sort those

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So much for the quoting button it makes the above from it.

@ForeverPontiac

On the left side IPB4 you get that list by doing Search>Select Members>Press Search button or enter. You will then get a member list by searching.

The one on the right IPB 3.4.7 you get that by pressing Member List (easier access). Then we have the Tabs on the left side All and A to Z. Has big bonus in the template system you have the template member_list_show. Need to edit that template so people see stuff we use as guild. The advanced stuff is under "More search options" in this case.

Or our looking at something else or i see more in the member list then i see in the search list but there not the same for me, because the member list is faster in IPB 3.4.7. then under IPB 4 and you can customize it better.

 

[The Jimmo]

 

So much for the quoting button it makes the above from it.

@ForeverPontiac

On the left side IPB4 you get that list by doing Search>Select Members>Press Search button or enter. You will then get a member list by searching.

The one on the right IPB 3.4.7 you get that by pressing Member List (easier access). Then we have the Tabs on the left side All and A to Z. Has big bonus in the template system you have the template member_list_show. Need to edit that template so people see stuff we use as guild. The advanced stuff is under "More search options" in this case.

Or our looking at something else or i see more in the member list then i see in the search list but there not the same for me, because the member list is faster in IPB 3.4.7. then under IPB 4 and you can customize it better.

 

You can put the IPS4 "search member list" as button, takes less than 1 second if you're experienced. Everything you mentioned is still available, it is not on page but if you want to see members with the letter "M", type in "M" to the search. If you want to see members in group "xyz" type in "XYZ". As IPS4 grows, I am certain that IPS will add more functionality into this search. 

Does this fit everyone? Eh, probably not. No software does.
Does it fit the majority of who IPS has to tailor their software to? I think so.

[SJ77]

 

Does it fit the majority of who IPS has to tailor their software to? I think so.

​Seems many are making lots of assumptions about what the "majority" want/need.