Clover13 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 During my career, I was the product manager for several software companies. Not once did I ever announce a specific release date. Really? What did you tell your clients? Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4? You had to communicate some level of information regarding functionality and targeted availability, no? If you don't mind me asking, what markets were these products in? I've worked with both internal and external clients relative to the companies I've worked for, and in all cases, we've had project plans with corresponding targeted life cycle timeframes and release dates that were communicated to all parties.
Hitori Bocchi Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Forget yoga. I'm going back to bed. Don`t run away when a donkey is in need! Don't forget, there are those who understood what you said.
Rick L Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Personally I could care less when 4.0 comes out. I'm waiting for 4.0.1 Simpy due to me re-evaluating my site bringing it closer to my new business plan, which of course after sketching up my flowchart I keep seeing blogs about a new version that will actually aligns very well with my ideas. However I have no idea why I would wait to continue development simply due to (what comes next) out of IPB, imo doing that would not reflect my goals, but negate them. Truly, I just wanted to get in on this legenday (although seen many times before) thread of people that just may have lost their way due to following the development of the web in general , instead of following their own plan. /love this insane thread = :hyper:
Dillon Lawrence Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Again, with a lack of communication in that respect, it puts IPS's clients in a questioning and negative space...they have to make business decisions, but they don't have enough information from IPS to make their decision relative to IPS's software and it's availability. So it just pushes them to think about alternatives, which to me, doesn't seem like a good way to ensure customer retention. And even worse, say they invest in developing in 3.x given the lack of communication, spend their budget and then 4.0 gets released with functionality they just spent on an inferior solution. Now you have completely turned off, pissed off, and disappointed your customer and also impacted their business' bottom line and strategy. I appreciate that, but the issue is if IP discovered a bug and missed the scheduled release date. Everybody would be complaining about IPS 4.0 being delayed. However, they also need to understand that if they don't want IPS 4.0 to have the same fate as VBulletin (bug ridden), then they need to just wait. I appreciate that many would like a date - but let's be honest, it's better than if it was released buggy.
Dillon Lawrence Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Really? What did you tell your clients? Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4? You had to communicate some level of information regarding functionality and targeted availability, no? If you don't mind me asking, what markets were these products in? I've worked with both internal and external clients relative to the companies I've worked for, and in all cases, we've had project plans with corresponding targeted life cycle timeframes and release dates that were communicated to all parties. There's a comparison here: Ubuntu - Releases firm information about when the version will be released. Any longstanding bugs will make it into the stable version and will be patched later (if they do not have enough time). Linux Mint - Releases software 'when it is ready' and removes/fixes as many bugs as possible. While I have nothing against Ubuntu (it's excellent), do you see the point I am making? I am not saying Linux Mint is bug free either, but when dates are not announced bugs can be worked out, whereas otherwise there wouldn't be enough time. I understand many want release dates but you have to question whether or not you want a catastrophic release of 4.0.
Hexsplosions Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I've never been through a major release cycle at IPS but this has been very entertaining. I look forward to the next one! :lol:
Management Charles Posted February 17, 2014 Management Posted February 17, 2014 I've never been through a major release cycle at IPS but this has been very entertaining. I look forward to the next one! :lol: It's pretty normal really :) We're used to it.
ZakRhyno Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Forget yoga. I'm going back to bed. Alright got to Zen; eh?
Rimi Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 It's pretty normal really :) We're used to it.You should announce release dates. Then if you miss them you can say "It's ok. We're used to this. :) " while still giving people an illusion of what they want.
We are Borg Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 .... Unfortunately, the answer to your question is basically no. What if we said we expect release candidates to take 3 days? What if we said we expect them to take 3 months? How can we possibly "expect" release candidates to take any specific period of time? The intention of a release candidate is "we think this is ready for release and would have just released it as final, but are going to throw it out one more time as a non-final release just to be certain no further issues are discovered". The very nature of a release candidate is that you believe it is ready for production, so you can't "expect" it to take any specific period of time. .... How is the system IPB uses Alpha, Beta, RC etc and when does something become feature locked. I really don't get all this indignation. Our community operates on 3.3.4 and it serves our community well, and I am hard pressed to understand how that release could not currently serve any client. Certainly, there are new applications that only work with 3.4.x, but the majority of the applications are still 3.3.4 compatible. For developers who are creating new application-laced boards for communities, 3.4.x is not some unruly, hideous mass. So if you developed something for a client, it could serve them well for several years after 4.0 is released. Good business sense should direct you to note one caveat for all 3.4.x users: that the software will have the following xx month xxxx year end of life, at which point, the software will need to be upgraded. But that notation is something you would provide to all clients whether this was 2009 or 2012. If you look at my signature block, we use a number of applications. We cannot upgrade to 4.0 until ALL of those applications are upgraded. Then there are the 30+ hooks that we also have enabled. To me, that is the bigger issue, and one that none of us can properly anticipate. It isn't a matter of knowing when 4.0 will be released but a sense of confidence that the application developers will actually decide to redo their application for 4.0 What about skin development? What happens if a skinner decides they don't want to upgrade this or that skin for 4.0? Are you going to communicate to all of your clients that the new IPB version will probably come out in Q3 2014, but then a prudent client should wait another 3 months for the maintenance release of .1 and/or release .2 are available, and then they will have to wait probably another 8 months for most of the applications to be upgraded, and for this or that skin to be released? I would answer no. I would develop sites for my clients with the existing architecture and fulfill their needs. Those needs would continue to be fulfilled for at least another 12 - 24 months after 4.0 has been released. I cannot even consider a client deciding that they would prefer to wait 18 - 24 months to get what they need when they can get it now. So it really just boils down to honest communication with a client, explaining that using the IPB Suite of products will involve the following current and future costs. I can understand that specialized applications developed for individual clients will involve a supplementary cost but can you seriously assert that the US $1800 development fee for a given application will cost another US $1800 for 4.0 compliance? If you are a developer that only works with application development for the marketplace, I would choose to develop for the current release of 3.4 because there will be certain (large?) percentage of communities who will wait to upgrade and you can continue to earn sales with those purchasers. Lobbing a hundred lightening bolts at IPS and Charles really doesn't make any sense. Either you develop for 3.4..x or you wait and develop for 4.0 but if you choose to wait, that delay could be much longer than just a specified release date. - Brian For communities that exist all ready its far different then people that are going to start IPB 3.4.x is solid it will serve well but it makes no sense for starting websites or sites that need to expand to do this under IPB 3.4.x. You are better off waiting and do it all under IPB 4 that way you do not have to develop two times and you have access to the latest builds and technic. For you its completely different then me you need to wait till the add-ons that are important for your site are converted or something similair comes. The biggest issue is developers they need time to work and simple stuff can be done in a few days but complicated stuff like Social Groups add-on will take time, you will also have developers that will not develop for IPB 4 but what then are you going to wait it out or try with out it all depends on your needs. As for your prices well you need to wait and see you can say prices but it can be more or less it all depends. In the end people need to decide what they want and need all by there own for one they need to wait the other wants it now even if it was for testing and later on running it live. As for development well we have to wait and see when its done.
ram108 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Tell us the dates!!! :devil: Tell us the dates!!! :drool: Tell us the dates!!! :super:
TSP Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Please, "next week" is not equivalent to "first day of next week". Besides, IPS staff in the US haven't even worked more than a few hours by now.
Andrej Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Thought we got a blog post today? I heard there are seven days in a week. :whistle:
Mysterioux Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Please, "next week" is not equivalent to "first day of next week". Besides, IPS staff in the US haven't even worked more than a few hours by now. I'm not following this topic 100%. I saw somewhere that it was due today. I heard there are seven days in a week. :whistle: There is? :O
Hitori Bocchi Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I heard there are seven days in a week. :whistle: Sunday is the first day of the week?! :tongue:
SkimPappa Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I always change them to start on Monday. Starting the week on a Sunday seems odd. PS I look forward to this weeks blog(s) :) :)
Mark Round Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 ok how many pages do you think this topic will make before 4.0 is released :rofl:
Tigratrus Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 ok how many pages do you think this topic will make before 4.0 is released :rofl: Too many? Oh wait... That milestone was passed a looooong time ago. :p Seriously I totally understand where the more rational posters are coming from, the ones that are talking about the lack of ability to plan esp the 3rd party devs. We'd love to be able to plan our own development resource allocation more effectively, but as Headstand pointed out it's clearly too soon for that point in the process. The Contributors haven't gotten a look at anything yet, which indicates a certain point in the dev cycle has yet to be reached, though obviously we all hope that that point is approaching as quickly as possible. Short version: 4.0 is coming. IPS is working on it, but they have not yet reached the point where they are comfortable feeding the inevitable "Release date NAOW!" trolls with more specific info. :p For those that want more info I strongly suggest they dig into the >Development Channel Blog there's a lot of good info in there, and paired with announcements that HAVE been made it should make it clear that things are moving along and it will all be well worth the wait. James
Rheddy Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 WOW! Did somebody actually ask when will they get to beta test the new version? IN the past, IPS has always created it's own beta test site, before they release the beta to its its client base for testing. Starting last year, IPS began installing the beta version of its software on the support forums here. There is always a beta testing process for IPS in that they allow the community here to beta test the software and to submit bug reports if someone discovers a problem. I'm simply flabbergasted that someone suggested that IPS doesn't allow beta testing of its software before a final version is released. Last year, the beta testing process lasted for, what was it, about 6-8 weeks before the PR candidate releases came out and we got the final product. Sheesh, this time around, the puppies are acting like pit bulls eating raw hamburger. You guys really need to learn patience. The final version is far from here, and I would expect we won't see the final version until either end of spring or maybe summer. The Beta Test versions? I would expect that we won't see beta versions released until sometime this spring. Your first clue that the beta is released? The IPS Support Forums, they always install it here first. Also, check the bug reports: http://community.invisionpower.com/resources/bugs.html/_/ip-board/ When the secret beta testing begins among the devs, they'll start posting big reports on IPS CS 4 there. Click the link above.
Clover13 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 There's a comparison here: Ubuntu - Releases firm information about when the version will be released. Any longstanding bugs will make it into the stable version and will be patched later (if they do not have enough time). Linux Mint - Releases software 'when it is ready' and removes/fixes as many bugs as possible. While I have nothing against Ubuntu (it's excellent), do you see the point I am making? I am not saying Linux Mint is bug free either, but when dates are not announced bugs can be worked out, whereas otherwise there wouldn't be enough time. I understand many want release dates but you have to question whether or not you want a catastrophic release of 4.0. I think the misconception here is that a release date is fixed and cannot be moved. And a big difference between Ubuntu and Linux Mint versus IPS is that the prior are free. If IPS wants to offer their products for free...hell, do whatever you'd like. No one wants a catastrophic or premature release, in fact as others have stated, they won't even go to 4.0, and that approach has merit for many reasons. But the ability to deliver a quality, refined, and (awareness based) bug free version of a piece of software is completely separate from an announcement of target release dates. One doesn't guarantee the other, ever. And if you have a viable reason to push out a date, then clients will understand and accept it (or some won't, and you'll lose them)...it's going to happen anyway. Sure they're going to be disappointed...but they won't feel neglected or left in the dark for something they're paying for (in which case they're probably going to at least evaluate leaving anyway), and they can adjust their own timelines with the information that is available (and have a level of accountability for it that isn't in their control). It's just a level of customer service as it applies to software, and I can't see how clear communication is a BAD thing in that respect...whereas I can see failing to communicate in that respect can be detrimental. I just don't understand the leeriness of posting targeted release dates to facilitate client and developer preparation. Blogs are great, but they are just like dangling a carrot in front of clients...eventually they'll stop chasing it, and not for a positive reason. Maybe it's not a concern for IPS, maybe they don't care, which is fine, that's a business decision...but don't expect clients to like it (which they clearly don't based on this thread and every thread similar to it for prior releases, which reflects their lack of adjustment to address those repeating concerns). Personally, I don't care what IPS does or when they target releases (although I am curious, since my own planning is based on it...but my site is a hobby, not a source of income), but I very much understand why other clients would (especially those that are trying to make a living via paid software).
Hitori Bocchi Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Seriously I totally understand where the more rational posters are coming from, the ones that are talking about the lack of ability to plan esp the 3rd party devs. Rational are those who get things done, not those who wait for others to get their things done first.
Clover13 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Too many? Oh wait... That milestone was passed a looooong time ago. :tongue: Seriously I totally understand where the more rational posters are coming from, the ones that are talking about the lack of ability to plan esp the 3rd party devs. We'd love to be able to plan our own development resource allocation more effectively, but as Headstand pointed out it's clearly too soon for that point in the process. The Contributors haven't gotten a look at anything yet, which indicates a certain point in the dev cycle has yet to be reached, though obviously we all hope that that point is approaching as quickly as possible. Short version: 4.0 is coming. IPS is working on it, but they have not yet reached the point where they are comfortable feeding the inevitable "Release date NAOW!" trolls with more specific info. :tongue: For those that want more info I strongly suggest they dig into the >Development Channel Blog there's a lot of good info in there, and paired with announcements that HAVE been made it should make it clear that things are moving along and it will all be well worth the wait. James James, In respect to this, the first 4.0 mentioning on the Development Channel Blog was by Mark in February 21st, 2013. So here we are a few days shy of 1 year, and we still don't have a clear idea on it's overall progression or availability, other than sometime in 2014 (and maybe that's just beta)? Based on your post, which aligns with my own expectations, 4.0 won't be ready for use for quite some time...and even more so for developer upgraded mods. So at best, if you run an IPS Marketplace mod heavy site, I would certainly expect 4.0.1+ to be out before most of those mods got upgraded (if they are even supported by the modder anymore). As I've said before, the Blogs are great, but what's the point in blogging about a software release possibly 2 years (assuming Q4 and maybe into 2015) before it's going to be out of beta, truly stable and available? Seems a bit premature and leads to these types of discussions, confusion, and to a degree animosity towards IPS. That part too doesn't make sense to me. If you're going to release dark, why not develop dark? Well because you want to build customer interest, but in that approach you certainly need to internally time things effectively. 1-2 years seems remarkably long, even for a re-architecture. Technology evolve rapidly, and over 1-2 years you might get put right back behind the curve (although still ahead of competitor's in that curve). This is a big part of my interest in IPS's 4.0 release, I can't wait to see what they've built and what we all can do with it...I'm sure that's what everyone's pumped about (ala the various sentiments and feelings expressed in this thread).
Clover13 Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Rational are those who get things done, not those who wait for others to get their things done first. Which is potentially a case for going custom and just doing it yourself (or hiring another to do it for you), not waiting for others (IPS in this case), no? :smile: Cost (of time waiting for IPS) vs benefit (of having functionality that will be delivered before you can build it or get it built custom, or elsewhere via a competitor). It's irrational (to me) to not consider that aspect (especially considering the value of IPS).
Mark Round Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Too many? Oh wait... That milestone was passed a looooong time ago. :tongue: Seriously I totally understand where the more rational posters are coming from, the ones that are talking about the lack of ability to plan esp the 3rd party devs. We'd love to be able to plan our own development resource allocation more effectively, but as Headstand pointed out it's clearly too soon for that point in the process. The Contributors haven't gotten a look at anything yet, which indicates a certain point in the dev cycle has yet to be reached, though obviously we all hope that that point is approaching as quickly as possible. Short version: 4.0 is coming. IPS is working on it, but they have not yet reached the point where they are comfortable feeding the inevitable "Release date NAOW!" trolls with more specific info. :tongue: For those that want more info I strongly suggest they dig into the >Development Channel Blog there's a lot of good info in there, and paired with announcements that HAVE been made it should make it clear that things are moving along and it will all be well worth the wait. James Yeah I agree and i understand totally where the devs that have hundreds of files are coming from and also the site owners that rely on them.There are some very serious posts in this thread ,i just thought id lighten the mood a little.Also i doubt that the release date will be announced in here,it kinda reminds me of donkey asking are we there yet in the shrek movie lol
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