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Application Development 101


snugRugBug
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​No - I disagree.

I hate to be blunt (No I don't) There are a few topics as Andriano has mentioned that are a bit sensitive to piracy issues for one. And unfortunatly we have them here in our own clients membership. Cotributors in Application development as well as design also add things (Coding wise) that are not intended for public view, again having to do with piracy in some cases. When you start finding your own work pirated you will understand.

***ADDED NOTE***

Also if this were the case we all would be allowed in any Admin forums with read only abilities.... Just Not Happening

​It sounds like you're expecting privacy in an area where privacy shouldn't be expected.  I'm sure there are people who've released apps got approved as a contributor and are in that area reading all communications.  If you want a private conversation you should do that through a PM, on another site, or with encoded messages.

The contributor area shouldn't be viewed as some secret private club to discuss all the inner workings of IPS IMHO.

Access to the admin areas?  So, you're comparing access to a contributor area which it's pretty easy to get access to vs. an admin area where probably just IPS employees have access too?  Bad comparison.

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It's not really a matter of "privacy", we simply don't need this forum to be open access for every single IP.Board client.

Not a contributor? Need help with a hook or application you're making? Lookie here,
http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/485-suite-modification-help/

Not a contributor? Need help with a skin you're designing? Lookie here,
http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/360-ipb-skin-support/

There is no reason you need access to the contributor forum. Yeah, it's probably really easy to gain access and become a "contributor" currently, just throw a semi-decent graphic up in the marketplace and that's pretty much all you need to do. As I said in my previous post, I agree that this is kind of silly, but that doesn't really matter. It's still not a forum that every single IPS client needs to have access to.

We don't secretly "discuss all the inner workings of IPS" there. We discuss development related topics, and only occasionally make fun of you plebeians who can't access the forum.

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It's not really a matter of "privacy", we simply don't need this forum to be open access for every single IP.Board client.

Not a contributor? Need help with a hook or application you're making? Lookie here,
http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/485-suite-modification-help/

Not a contributor? Need help with a skin you're designing? Lookie here,
http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/360-ipb-skin-support/

There is no reason you need access to the contributor forum. Yeah, it's probably really easy to gain access and become a "contributor" currently, just throw a semi-decent graphic up in the marketplace and that's pretty much all you need to do. As I said in my previous post, I agree that this is kind of silly, but that doesn't really matter. It's still not a forum that every single IPS client needs to have access to.

We don't secretly "discuss all the inner workings of IPS" there. We discuss development related topics, and only occasionally make fun of the plebeians who can't access the forum.

​I understand where you're coming from and I could totally see an issue if every person had write priv in that forum - that would be a mess.  But anyone who's going to actually steal something is going to be smart enough to create some app and gain access to that forum - where they could see everything.

Allowing people who might not be as savvy as most and wanted to develop something for IPS would pick up on dev tips and learn from what's happening in that forum.  Getting more people involved in development is good for the software IMO.

There are plenty of open source communities out there where everything is out in the open.  That seems to work and anyone on the internet can see what's happening in those instances.  Obviously, a read only dev forum, would be for clients only and not restrict people who spent hundreds of dollars on purchasing IPS.

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​I understand where you're coming from and I could totally see an issue if every person had write priv in that forum - that would be a mess.  But anyone who's going to actually steal something is going to be smart enough to create some app and gain access to that forum - where they could see everything.

Allowing people who might not be as savvy as most and wanted to develop something for IPS would pick up on dev tips and learn from what's happening in that forum.  Getting more people involved in development is good for the software IMO.

There are plenty of open source communities out there where everything is out in the open.  That seems to work and anyone on the internet can see what's happening in those instances.  Obviously, a read only dev forum, would be for clients only and not restrict people who spent hundreds of dollars on purchasing IPS.


It's a risk that we run for 1, 5, 10 guys; not for 1.000, 10.000, ... Who know how many clients IPS has. So NO, it doesn't worth the risk. Again, you won't see nothing more than developers trying to help each other. All the INITIAL stuff, you need to read, understand the documentation and DO something. No one will do the job for you.

 

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As much as I would like access, it's more a need of seeing whats hidden than anything else (it's human nature) - I don't actually need access and I don't particularly require access (it would be out of sheer curiousity if I did venture into it if I had access).

I think it's only right and proper that contributors have access to a specific section to discuss 3rd party applications - away from non "tech savvy" clients and to discuss pricing structures etc.

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​It sounds like you're expecting privacy in an area where privacy shouldn't be expected.  I'm sure there are people who've released apps got approved as a contributor and are in that area reading all communications.  If you want a private conversation you should do that through a PM, on another site, or with encoded messages.

The contributor area shouldn't be viewed as some secret private club to discuss all the inner workings of IPS IMHO.

Access to the admin areas?  So, you're comparing access to a contributor area which it's pretty easy to get access to vs. an admin area where probably just IPS employees have access too?  Bad comparison.

For me personally -

​Expecting privacy? No this is not the case. discussing issues and showing a managed number of other designers and developers my coding issues to get qualified feed back is more on the correct path.

I don't think any of us look at contributor chat as a secret society or club. Again I will use the same example: working with a managed number of other designers and developers on coding issues to get qualified feed back.

And yes I know of at least one contributor for sure who has been banned for piracy. So any little security IPS can offer is greatly appreciated by the majority if not all contributors.

Comparing private admin forums to contributor chat or any other forum designed for privileged access I believe is a good comparison. I am sure you have your own back rooms for certain groups.

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Ok it seems few people don't understand difference between client and contributor end day, people that have contributor status work hard providing resources to all clients here from the coder to the skinner we all play are part, if like build hook or app there area for that http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/485-suite-modification-help/ if need help or support post it there if like build skin then again there forum for that http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/360-ipb-skin-support/ both part the client permissions.

A client don't need accress to the contributor area has nothing do with your license and if like give feedback any resources then use support topic, if really want build resource then understand why to different rooms and how much work is involved i will say now people that provide resources continue do great job and provide a good service to people use invision.  

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Again, you won't see nothing more than developers trying to help each other.

 

​That's what WE WANT! Is it that hard of a concept to understand that you guys may already have answered a question I have or done something I didn't realize I could do much easier and want to do that myself? That's what development communities are. It's not I have my code here secretly for 3 people to look at. That's what PM's/emails are for ;) 

I understand if you want to share your full code instead of snippets that there may be a need for a "higher status" needed to prevent piracy. As a developer who has had software pirated I understand that fully. I just see it as a slap in the face as a developer to know that this developer community is lacking because there is a privacy wall blocking me from potentially helpful information. By no means am I saying that it needs to change today, right this second either. Stew on it, not everyone in the world is out to screw you over and you could help people without realizing it.

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It's a risk that we run for 1, 5, 10 guys; not for 1.000, 10.000, ... Who know how many clients IPS has. So NO, it doesn't worth the risk. Again, you won't see nothing more than developers trying to help each other. All the INITIAL stuff, you need to read, understand the documentation and DO something. No one will do the job for you.

 

​I understand about having a separate area for developers.  I get that.  In the end, I just don't see the big deal with allowing clients to see what's written in that forum - without right privileges which would prevent spammy posts.  My position is that it will aid existing clients helping them understand the inner workings of the script.  Obviously, it's up to IPS to decide how they want to setup their forum.  They've decided to set it up that way.

 

I understand if you want to share your full code instead of snippets that there may be a need for a "higher status" needed to prevent piracy. As a developer who has had software pirated I understand that fully. I just see it as a slap in the face as a developer to know that this developer community is lacking because there is a privacy wall blocking me from potentially helpful information. By no means am I saying that it needs to change today, right this second either. Stew on it, not everyone in the world is out to screw you over and you could help people without realizing it.

​The thing is, they don't really have privacy.  Anyone who is going to steal their software is going to have enough knowledge to create a mod and gain access to that forum.  Once they gain access, they'll see everything that's written.

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I am in the process of learning to develop applications for IPB4. My current target is to create a 'Hello world' kind of application that allows the user to go to a page that says 'Hello world'. I have created an application, and poked around in it's developer center, but I have not yet even been able to access my 'blank' application.

Can someone please point me in the right direction in order to achieve a hello world application? Thanks

Sidenote: I don't want to create a page in the pages application. I want to learn to build more complex applications (ie migration scripts), and this is the first baby step.

Can you access this forum http://community.invisionpower.com/forum/442-contributor-chat/ ?

EDIT: Oh no, you don't have the CONTRIBUTOR badge. Well, submit any image package to Marketplace, like emoticons or logo or something... then you'll gain access to this forum. We have several topics there which will help you.

​hey guys and gals. I thank you for your inputs, here is what I think:

Paying clients should have access to any information that will help them use or develop IPB software, especially if IPB owns this information (ie, it's on their site).

The argument that I should contribute something (possibly) mediocre to the marketplace in order to gain the contributor badge is not in the best interests of the community. If more and more people started doing this, the overall quality of the content on the marketplace would decline. It would clog up the system, and be a waste of time for everyone. Moderators would need to work through more bad content, users would encounter an increasing amount of low quality content, and the contributor forums would fill up with help vampires ( http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ ). Also, the time spent on creating mediocre content would be a waste for whoever creates it. My personal skill level as a developer in IPB currently prevents me from making a meaningful contribution to the marketplace, but I will be able to contribute something nice after having learnt the ropes for the next few months. The only thing preventing me from becoming a contributing developer faster, is a lack of developer resources and information.

I understand that some of the content in the contributor chat forum is sensitive. Making some of that content publicly viewable could be harmful to everyone. The current solution to that problem is not terrible, but it's not ideal either. The current system does not prevent 'bad' people from getting in, it just makes it harder for everyone. I am also led to believe that not ALL of the content on the Contributor Chat is sensitive. Does this mean that ALL of the content should be kept out of bounds (except if you submit some random emoticon pack to the marketplace, and you are lucky enough to get it approved)?. I don't think so. I'm thinking that a better system is possible.

Here are a few ideas that might help:

1. Selective privacy: The contributor forum should be viewable for all clients. If a piece of content is considered to be 'sensitive', it should have a tag that makes it viewable only to users with a certain badge/privilege/ranking.

..or..

2. Selective sharing: All content in the contributor forum is private by default. If content within the contributor forum can be considered to be 'Universally Helpful', there should be a mechanism that allows this post to be shared with clients (or possibly everyone). A tag that causes duplicate content to appear in a category that users can view seems like a nice way to do this. Or simply a tag that makes that particular content public within the contributor forum (this would require clients to have viewing privileges, though). The least ideal way would be to allow contributors to quote posts from the contributor forum. This would also be somewhat helpful, since, in this particular situation, @Adriano Faria could simply have quoted the relevant posts in order to answer my question.

..or..

3. Be extra helpful: Contributors must decide to manually share the relevant content. This is the least ideal option, since it will cause duplicate content to exist, and cause extra effort for contributors. If a contributor thinks that a piece of content from the contributor forum is useful or helpful, they should copy/paste it, and give credit to the original author. This will suck for the contributors, since it will be a pretty selfless action. This action will be performed for 'the good of the community' only.

I will ask my original question in the 'Developers: Help with Creating Modifications' forum, but the fact that the answer might already exist means that my time is being used ineffectively.

I hope that we can reach a constructive conclusion.

Love you guys :thumbsup: 

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Paying clients should have access to any information that will help them use or develop IPB software, especially if IPB owns this information (ie, it's on their site).

​Really, just no. The average paying client is not a developer. The average client probably does not even understand basic HTML markup. The average client does not need (nor do they have any inherited right to) a private forum for marketplace contributors. Second, IPS does not automatically own everything posted in that forum. We, the developers, retain ownership of whatever we post there. We do not transfer our legal rights to IPS. Similarly, you do not automatically own everything any member posts on your forum.

The argument that I should contribute something (possibly) mediocre to the marketplace in order to gain the contributor badge is not in the best interests of the community. If more and more people started doing this, the overall quality of the content on the marketplace would decline. It would clog up the system, and be a waste of time for everyone. Moderators would need to work through more bad content, users would encounter an increasing amount of low quality content, and the contributor forums would fill up with help vampires ( http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ ).

​There's already plenty of low-quality hooks and the likes in the marketplace. People generally throw these up not for the pretty Contributor badge or access to the Contributor forum, but they throw them up as paid hooks in an effort to make a quick buck for absolutely minimal effort. Quite honestly I'm not against enforcing a stricter set of quality standards in the marketplace, but that's another discussion entirely.

You're suggestions of "selective sharing" don't really make any sense because we already have public forums for general hook / skin development support. (See my above post.)

The Contributor forum is simply a private discussion forum for Contributors. You don't need access to it. You're not entitled to have access to it as a paying client. You're not really missing out on much by not having access to it. There are resources out there freely and publicly available to beginners to help them get started. The contributor forum is not generally for novice topics, it's for discussions geared at developers who already have some experience contributing. As a novice developer, you want to use the forums referenced above. You want to reference the official documentation provided by IP.Board. That's all there really is to it.

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The Contributor forum is simply a private discussion forum for Contributors. You don't need access to it. You're not entitled to have access to it as a paying client. You're not really missing out on much by not having access to it. There are resources out there freely and publicly available to beginners to help them get started. The contributor forum is not generally for novice topics, it's for discussions geared at developers who already have some experience contributing. As a novice developer, you want to use the forums referenced above. You want to reference the official documentation provided by IP.Board. That's all there really is to it.

​In summary, you're saying that those who want advanced help need to submit something to the marketplace. My god, that's horrible.

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This whole argument seems rather silly. The contributors board really isn't all it's being made out to be. It's a place for contributors to talk.

Have there been some topics regarding 4.0 development? Sure--just because that's where we're used to talking. But that's not what it's there for, you're not missing out on much, and there's nothing that says you're prohibited from learning or asking for any help because you can't access one private board. You have access to all the same documentation contributors do. Post in the client lounge or the dev board noted above; you're every bit as likely to get an answer.

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