"Kindness" plugin

[Morrigan]

11 minutes ago, breatheheavy said:

Social media giants like Instagram and TikTok as we speak are rolling out new terms and conditions that crack down on the kinds of comments people can leave. People are being banned left and right from the platforms for calling someone "dumb" for instance.

Lets be really real.... they institute those terms and they are enforced. There isn't some magic check mark to say "I'm being responsible". You agree to be responsible by posting content.

What you are requesting is that you accept the terms of service every time you post which NO PERSON wants to do.

Congrats on being google certified.... but that means very little anymore as google adds ads whenever they want.

So originally, @breatheheavy you said that this was to enhance your community and reduce negative comments but now you're stating this is to not get demonetized. Which is it? While you can do both it makes your target different.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Morrigan said:

Lets be really real.... they institute those terms and they are enforced. There isn't some magic check mark to say "I'm being responsible". You agree to be responsible by posting content.

What you are requesting is that you accept the terms of service every time you post which NO PERSON wants to do.

Congrats on being google certified.... but that means very little anymore as google adds ads whenever they want.

So originally, @breatheheavy you said that this was to enhance your community and reduce negative comments but now you're stating this is to not get demonetized. Which is it? While you can do both it makes your target different.

The part about the ads only came to me after the fact. My original intention is to keep my community as positive as possible. That’s most important. But the community does need to generate revenue to be sustainable. 

I didn’t anticipate so much pushback 😅. This isn’t a one-size fits all solution. However I think for me as a community leader it would enhance my forum. It sounds like it won’t for you and I respect that. 🙏

Edited December 27, 2020 by breatheheavy

[Davyc]

4 hours ago, breatheheavy said:

However I think for me as a community leader it would enhance my forum. It sounds like it won’t for you and I respect that.

Therein lies your problem. 'you think it would enhance your forum' - have you asked your members what they think of this solution towards politeness?  After all, asking on here is one thing and you have had your responses from a few who have taken the time to respond, but what about your members? They are the ones who are going to have to live with this if you are able to implement it.  I believe their feedback would be more valuable to you than any on here.

As for this idea to stop people in their tracks and make them think before they post, it has the potential to stifle their desire to respond; emotions and passion are essential to good debate, these elements are what 'make people think' - this doesn't mean they have to be offensive, that's what your rules are there for, to remind them what is and isn't permissible. If anyone steps over the line, then you and your moderators are there to step in and do the job you're there for.  You have an inbuilt warning system, use that instead of penalising the many for the transgressions of the few.

Personally, if this was implemented in the core and it was not optional, I would go elsewhere for my community software.  I would not impose this on my members, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's your site, your forum, you do as you think best, but this is definitely not for the core, ask a developer to make this plugin/app for you, but I really would ask your members first if they believe this to be a good idea.  Do a poll, so they don't even have to say what they think 🙂

 

[SC36DC]

@breatheheavy

Maybe instead of going this route, you can simply create a banner that you could place on your forum, basically reminding people to be kind to others when posting, see if that helps to make a difference at all. As @Davyc mentioned, let them know a good heated debate is always welcomed, just for them to remember to stay respectful.

If people are using the Members Shop system, maybe try a 'Random Act of Kindness' yourself, and tell people you will go around the forum and donate points to people who you feel are posting in a way you appreciate.

There are literally tons of things you can try to increase the good vibes on your forum, if you are willing to. Just curious, percentage wise, about how many of them are posting negative or offensive content? I know you have a good size community.

[Adriano Faria]

if things get out of hand, let them know that the team will be watching closely:

Or even use the new 4.5 thing: Per Topic Post Approval.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, SC36DC said:

@breatheheavy

Maybe instead of going this route, you can simply create a banner that you could place on your forum, basically reminding people to be kind to others when posting, see if that helps to make a difference at all. As @Davyc mentioned, let them know a good heated debate is always welcomed, just for them to remember to stay respectful.

If people are using the Members Shop system, maybe try a 'Random Act of Kindness' yourself, and tell people you will go around the forum and donate points to people who you feel are posting in a way you appreciate.

There are literally tons of things you can try to increase the good vibes on your forum, if you are willing to. Just curious, percentage wise, about how many of them are posting negative or offensive content? I know you have a good size community.

🙏 

I would say most comments are respectful and kind, but there's still work to do. It's still an initiative I'd like to pursue (even if I'm in the minority right now ;]) 

As I'm sure all community leaders can relate to, people are going through tough times right now. It's important to me to have an uplifting community corner on the Internet. So while some may think this idea is a nuisance, I personally think it adds value. 

I love the Random Act of Kindness idea you mentioned. I have done things like that in the past and it's fun, but it's not a sustainable solution to have to manually do that every day. BUT, your mind and heart are in the right place! That's the vibe 👏 

On 12/27/2020 at 12:43 AM, Davyc said:

Personally, if this was implemented in the core and it was not optional, I would go elsewhere for my community software.

No worries, I understand. I would imagine if it was implemented in the core, that it'd feature an "on" or "off" option. But either way I hear you 🙏  😉 

[Davyc]

21 minutes ago, breatheheavy said:

No worries, I understand.

I believe you need to measure the responses you are seeing on your forum; for example, are you seeing an increase in disrespectful responses in your content areas?  If you are, then use the tools you have, to rein in the offenders.  If not, then your idea becomes a moot point as it negates the need for such a tool. I understand where you are coming from, but if this is because of a few members not following the rules, why think of putting such a block to posting into place rather than just dealing with minority offenders?

For example, let's assume you have this check box in place, and someone decides to ignore the 'kindness' aspect and post a really nasty response to someone else's comment or post.  What would you do? Warn the offender?  Ban him/her? Penalise them in some way?  Do you see the redundancy of this application? You would need to use the tools that are already at hand. Just look at what is currently available, report post, warning system, reactions, post moderation - and some I can't think of right now.

You just need to remind people that they are guests on your site and should follow whatever rules or guidelines you put in place. If they don't want to play by your rules kick them out. 🙂

 

[Joel R]

Some thoughts:

1.  I may be in the minority, but this idea is grounded in solid engagement principles that are already being deployed on the largest publisher sites in the world (like Yahoo.com and NYTimes), where certain news articles attract very divisive commentary.  I like this feature because:

• It's at the point-of-action.  Moderator notes can be added to the top of the page or bottom of the page, but it's not where users are trying to type.  
• It's proactive.  You can add moderator review or surveillance, but those are retroactive.  Even worse, they're repressive because you moderate after a user has already expressed his feelings.  

2.  To implement this well, I think this should be setting per topic or per board.  As others have pointed out, adding this to every post or comment would be very tiresome.  But targeting this feature to specific divisive posts and asking users to pause, reflect, and elevate their discourse before posting can be incredibly meaningful.  

3.  I would be mildly impressed if IPS added this feature.  This is the kind of forward thinking that I applaud Jordan for brainstorming. 

4.  On a final note, I'm not a fan of Jordan the Client debating product feedback in the community when he's also Jordan the Company Representative.  Any smart client should be sucking up to Jordan at this point and greasing his ego.  See points #1 - 3. 

 

[SC36DC]

2 hours ago, Joel R said:

2.  To implement this well, I think this should be setting per topic or per board.  As others have pointed out, adding this to every post or comment would be very tiresome.  But targeting this feature to specific divisive posts and asking users to pause, reflect, and elevate their discourse before posting can be incredibly meaningful.  

This would be the perfect implementation. By default the feature is "off". But mods and admin would have the power to enable it on a per thread basis. On my own forum we have had people start topics that we knew would be controversial, a mod would spot this right away and could enable this feature in the thread. Basically reminding people to be respectful with their comments. Great idea @Joel R

[CoffeeCake]

Adding a bit more versatility to the idea, we have also considered something like this that for certain things reminds others to carefully consider what they're getting into. We've envisioned this as a popup prior to composing a reply or creating a new thread in a specific forum where a gentle reminder of expectations might do more preventatively than moderation action retroactively.

We had something similar in vBulletin where we'd force a preview of the post upon submission with reminders outlined on the screen and asking the member to doublecheck what they've written is appropriate for the area/thread/forum.

I like the idea of this at a per thread level (similar to enabling moderation at the thread level), per forum level, and even per user group level. Thread message/Announcement meets interstitial.

[Daniel F]

I agree with the thread level. I coded this once for a client where moderators were able to activate a confirmation box for specific topics, but also for drama topics with a custom message for the topic where it was activated, so before anybodies reply was really submitted, they saw the message and confirmed that they've read it/agree to the terms etc..

It is a nice way to stop certain drama before it really got out of control and without closing such topics. There are of course always people which won't care and which ignore the message and post their crap, but that's what moderators and warnings are for. All in all the clients feedback was really great

[Davyc]

You can defuse any potential situations where the drama can get out of hand with an already built in feature which I believe would be more useful than a check box that can be ignored; and let's face it people will be people and if they want to post crap and create more drama it just makes the mods lives more difficult. So, with this in mind use the built-in feature.

 

[CoffeeCake]

Yes, @Davyc post moderation at the thread level is a great new feature, however addresses it at a different point in the posting flow. This call out is for the "you're about to hit submit" part of the funnel.

I imagine something similar to the club T&C addition, but for threads/forums outside of clubs. It would be great to have that at the forum level (outside of clubs), but also at the "you're about to post" point of engagement.

[Davyc]

I would say at this point that the idea should be implemented as a plugin and then admins can choose whether or not to implement it.  There will always be points and counterpoints in this debate.  If IPS added it as part of the core then it would need to be an optional on/off switch, much the same as post moderation.  I'm very much in favour of 'less to click' in order to encourage people to post, the more hurdles you impose the less likely users will be to jump.  I know that sounds somewhat trite, in that it's just a checkbox to click. but some people see these things as just too much effort - a side effect of Social Media syndrome, perhaps.

So, a plugin would be the best way to go - the next hurdle is finding someone to do it and whether they will charge or do it free.

[CoffeeCake]

3 minutes ago, Davyc said:

If IPS added it as part of the core then it would need to be an optional on/off switch, much the same as post moderation.

Agree entirely. As a general rule, anytime something is suggested to be added, it should come with permissions, and an "off-by-default" setting.

At no time should some feature someone else finds useful change the behavior for all others. IPS shouldn't be in the business of making decisions about how we run our communities. They should strive for a platform that gets as many of us as close to our goals as possible, and with toolsets that can be turned on and off in a considered fashion.

There are all sorts of features available in IPS that if turned on for our community would be horrid mistakes, that may be core functionality and super important to another community. We have entire swathes of the suite disabled that I bet many would be surprised about that even severely limit moderators and administrators from accessing core functionality.

We should shy away from "oh no this feature you're requesting, other community admin, would be horrible for my site, so it's a terrible idea, go away." Instead, I like to think about the ideas people have and how they may be developed into broader ideas from their specific use case. Jordan needs a kindness plugin, but a community talking about financial securities might need a "currencies plugin" and a community talking about pornography might need a "no sharpies plugin," etc.

Backing up from this idea, I see a good case for something complementary to the post moderation at the thread level introduced in 4.5. It's just another tool in the toolbelt, that can be turned off and locked up for safe keeping if not applicable to you and yours.

[Jordan Miller]

19 hours ago, Joel R said:

But targeting this feature to specific divisive posts and asking users to pause, reflect, and elevate their discourse before posting can be incredibly meaningful.  

Love love love this idea! Appreciate you getting the vibe 👏  It's a tool to remind people to be kind so that the topic doesn't get out of hand (which often times they can). I imagine people would be less inclined to post something messed up if they have to check a little heart affirming their comment is respectful (right next to the text they're about to submit). 

Like you mention, Joel, if there was more flexibility, say for specific forums (or better yet specific topics), it could proactively stop or at least curb negativity. Saves moderators time and energy. 

Or perhaps this could also be applied to individual members (as a kind of moderation tactic). It's less severe than restricting their posts or having their posts moderated for approval.

 

19 hours ago, Joel R said:

4.  On a final note, I'm not a fan of Jordan the Client debating product feedback in the community when he's also Jordan the Company Representative.  Any smart client should be sucking up to Jordan at this point and greasing his ego.  See points #1 - 3. 

Well to be fair, I made this topic because I care about community building and posted it a month before joining Invision 😇 Imagine though if I had the power to communicate with my future self. THEN I would expect people to suck up to me. Until then, feel free to not. 😂 

However, I do think it's important I continue offering/debating feedback with the community because ultimately my goal is to help Invision. I think if the lines get too blurred we can cross that bridge if we get to it, but please remember I'm in your corner!

 

19 hours ago, Joel R said:

This is the kind of forward thinking that I applaud Jordan for brainstorming. 

Thanks @Joel R 😢 🙏 

 

[CoffeeCake]

6 minutes ago, Jordan Invision said:

Or perhaps this could also be applied to individual members (as a kind of moderation tactic). It's less severe than restricting their posts or having their posts moderated for approval.

Yes, with a tie in on the warning system.

This is a far better first step over moderating content.

[Jordan Miller]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:38 AM, Adriano Faria said:

if things get out of hand, let them know that the team will be watching closely:

Or even use the new 4.5 thing: Per Topic Post Approval.

Thanks for the suggestion! Appreciate that @Adriano Faria This is a great workaround solution for the time-being. 🙏 

[Jordan Miller]

1 minute ago, Paul E. said:

Yes, with a tie in on the warning system.

This is a far better first step over moderating content.

💯 Appreciate you saying that. 🙏 

[Davyc]

20 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

Or perhaps this could also be applied to individual members (as a kind of moderation tactic). It's less severe than restricting their posts or having their posts moderated for approval.

Reiterating my point of creating hurdles and turning people away - I'm inclined to agree with the above.  If you make it (I use this word tongue in cheek) more 'difficult' for someone who is argumentative by nature, this could make them think twice; I'm warming to this idea if it can be honed in on those who have a tendency to jump out their box.

[Morrigan]

I mean most big networks use the moderated feature. Its called shadow banning. Its common practice for reddit and many other platforms that don't want to outright remove the person but want to lessen their impact. That's basically what the content moderation feature allows for. The only thing you do from here is remove the "moderated" formatting and then the only way the person knows that they haven't had their post approved would be to log out and look at the thread.

[Jordan Miller]

1 hour ago, Davyc said:

Reiterating my point of creating hurdles and turning people away - I'm inclined to agree with the above.  If you make it (I use this word tongue in cheek) more 'difficult' for someone who is argumentative by nature, this could make them think twice; I'm warming to this idea if it can be honed in on those who have a tendency to jump out their box.

Glad to hear the idea is warming up to you a little! 

I think it boils down to this for community owners: who do we want as frequent posters in your community. Some people just need friendly reminders to brighten up and that's ok. I think a tool like this could achieve that. 🙂

[Morrigan]

NGL, had that been something that came up in the worst week of my life I'd have likely went out to punch someone in the face I'd be so stupidly mad about it.

If you're not calm, telling you to calm down isn't going to fix you or help you calm down.

[Moonbeam]

In my experience with online communities, the overt adoption or promotion of "kindness" or "welcoming" as a cultural attribute generally ends up being largely performative (regardless of how sincere the original impulse is) and often results in a passive-aggressive suppression of one or more parts of the community population. This is generally because when "kindness" or "being nice" is the focus of the culture, the tendency is to consider any breath of discord as a violation of the social norm, provoking a backlash that effectively prevents or discourages people from raising legitimate concerns and issues.

In such communities, there's also often a select few members who somehow manage to skirt the "kindness" doctrine without majority censure, but when someone finally has had enough of their harassment and speaks out, that's when the "kindness" police finally step in and spread the fiction that "both sides" are responsible and tell everyone to chill out. The thread gets locked and the "niceness" of the atmosphere is restored, but not before setting (or more likely, reinforcing) a lot of precedents and making it clear just how deep the "kindness" really runs and the fact that it's more performative than a reflection of the true community dynamic. The real interest is in the skin-deep appearance that people are being kind.

In short... I don't think a nuisance checkbox will accomplish anything but to make you believe you've done something to further your kindness initiative. Making a community kind requires a lot of deeper thinking and effort than this, and a better goal would be to make your community more just. A just community is inherently a kinder one.

[Jordan Miller]

25 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

NGL, had that been something that came up in the worst week of my life I'd have likely went out to punch someone in the face I'd be so stupidly mad about it.

If you're not calm, telling you to calm down isn't going to fix you or help you calm down.

Not sure how to feel about this but glad it didn't come out last week then. 😆