Commerce Subscriptions need to be desperately simplified

[Dean_]

Not getting in to that argument thanks.

[MSUKForum]

On 10/04/2016 at 6:36 AM, MADMAN32395 said:

non-physical doesn't mean non-taxable. that's why the system prompts for address.

Read the thread so we don't go around in circles.

PayPal provides address information if required, there is no need to enter it again when it's already available, it's an unnecessary step. A lot of online stores use PayPal to do this.

[MADMAN32395]

6 hours ago, jpointer2_merged said:

Read the thread so we don't go around in circles.

PayPal provides address information if required, there is no need to enter it again when it's already available, it's an unnecessary step. A lot of online stores use PayPal to do this.

Read the topic, you'll see I've touched this already.

also paypal is used as a payment api/gateway. it only charges what it's told to charge, commerce will charge tax based on address. paypal won't as it's only going by what nexus tells it to charge.

[MSUKForum]

2 minutes ago, MADMAN32395 said:

Read the topic, you'll see I've touched this already.

also paypal is used as a payment api/gateway. it only charges what it's told to charge, commerce will charge tax based on address. paypal won't as it's only going by what nexus tells it to charge.

But would an option have an impact to your forum?

No... it wouldn't.

So I don't understand why you are against feedback that would benefit others.

[MADMAN32395]

Just now, jpointer2_merged said:

But would an option have an impact to your forum?

No... it wouldn't.

So I don't understand why you are against feedback that would benefit others.

because current design shouldn't be hindering your sales? Because online commerce on any website regardless of delivery and cost will still ask for address.

[chilihead]

On 12/23/2015 at 5:25 PM, Mark said:

It's on our list  

 

On 12/26/2015 at 1:18 PM, Mark said:

I don't have an ETA right now - we haven't decided yet.

It is noted as something that is coming so it is reasonable for the users to ask for an update without debating again.

[opentype]

36 minutes ago, jpointer2_merged said:

So I don't understand why you are against feedback that would benefit others.

If you present arguments, people are free to check and challenge those arguments—especially in a discussion forum. It doesn’t mean they are “against you”. 
Madman’s counter argument was valid by the way. A shopping system like Commerce isn’t built around an address retrieval via PayPal. The latter is just a payment option used at the end of a sale and that can be deactivated at any time or might not be used at all. The shopping software would still need an address, so it’s the normal thing to collect that independent from a specific payment provider. 

34 minutes ago, chilihead said:

 so it is reasonable for the users to ask for an update without debating again.

I don’t think the debate started again because of the request for an update. ;-) 

[Tarquin]

On 11/04/2016 at 3:23 AM, opentype said:

If you present arguments, people are free to check and challenge those arguments—especially in a discussion forum. It doesn’t mean they are “against you”. 
Madman’s counter argument was valid by the way. A shopping system like Commerce isn’t built around an address retrieval via PayPal. The latter is just a payment option used at the end of a sale and that can be deactivated at any time or might not be used at all. The shopping software would still need an address, so it’s the normal thing to collect that independent from a specific payment provider. 

I don’t think the debate started again because of the request for an update. ;-) 

Do you realize how WRONG your entire argument and your fellow contributors have been since the start? The best example I have for this is Bestbuy.

If you purchase from bestbuy, they ask for a Postcode to calculate tax. A POSTCODE! Then they retrieve the delivery address via PayPal if you aren't a registered user. This is a lot more comforting for me than having to enter my billing/delivery details every time. (I know this because I purchased from them 3 days ago using this process)

The entire point to PayPal and the reason it became popular was a singular storage of payment, billing and shipping details. This intrusive method of forcing details that are unnecessary for some, is contrary to the point that many of us are seeking to attain. Why should IPS dictate this ruling on everyone's behalf, why should you? We all pay for the software and should be able to use it as we need.

As previous users have pointed out, the software has been advertised as Highly customizable yet commerce lacks many features and carries many issues contradictory to this, and since subscriptions was discontinued, we have little choice.

And you can sit there and say "If you don't like it, don't use it" but many of us like the forums and have had a license since IPS started (I hold more than 1 and at one stage owned a perpetual) and would like to keep payment processing integrated into the software.

So here and now... please SHUT UP about tax and let us ask for a feature change. It wont affect you negatively, it wont cause IPS any legal issues and it WILL help users get back to where they were before this mess of 'commerce' started.

 

P.S. My user base has halved as many of them are children (under 12) playing a game, their parents are uncomfortable paying $6 for a membership but being asked where the heck they live.

[MADMAN32395]

9 minutes ago, Tarquin said:

P.S. My user base has halved as many of them are children (under 12) playing a game, their parents are uncomfortable paying $6 for a membership but being asked where the heck they live.

different topic. but if you're collecting money and registrations for under 12 users, there's more legal things to worry about. than just a address box. (COPPA).

 

9 minutes ago, Tarquin said:

If you purchase from bestbuy, they ask for a Postcode to calculate tax. A POSTCODE!

also I am a sleeper agent for BestBuy's Geeksquad, in the past and present, it asks for an address. So do not try to say that its different. I tried to check out as a guest, also in chrome incognito mode. (video to prove. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0mBb9QuGv84SlhsREUxN0dNXzQ/view?usp=drivesdk ) incognito - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0mBb9QuGv84S2RJQmlLQ2V3cmM/view?usp=drivesdk

so both instore and delivery both ask for addresses.

[Tarquin]

4 minutes ago, MADMAN32395 said:

different topic. but if you're collecting money and registrations for under 12 users, there's more legal things to worry about. than just a address box. (COPPA).

 

also I am a sleeper agent for BestBuy's Geeksquad, in the past and present, it asks for an address. So do not try to say that its different. I tried to check out as a guest, also in chrome incognito mode. (video to prove. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0mBb9QuGv84SlhsREUxN0dNXzQ/view?usp=drivesdk )

Firstly, I did say PARENTS. We are very careful... you are clearly someone who tries to cause trouble... as is indicated with your second statement that you just so HAPPEN to be anything to do with BestBuy lol.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w29h4woh79ay5az/CheckoutPart1.PNG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tzn558476m2lxv0/CheckoutPart2.PNG?dl=0

You need to research before you make comments, it makes you come across as ignorant and looking down upon others. We are asking for a feature change that is not reasonable and you are trying to turn it into some sort of monkey flinging dung style argument.

Oh and I would like to return to a comment made earlier in the topic, someone said not EVERYWHERE is the USA - This is true once again here.

[Marcher Technologies]

If Paypal was the only possible payment gateway, sure, no problem. It's not, and most payment gateways don't store your billing address for re-use, and would be shocked at the request that they do so. There are several other 'stock' payment gateways included in the software that 'retrieve the billing address from the payment gateway' is in no way a valid response with, and because multiple payment gateways can be active for a given site the issue is further complicated.

In essence, yes, Paypal has your billing address, and what you suggest would seem logical, if there were no other gateways. As it stands, most payment gateways will need the billing address collected from the consumer and sent to them as part of the transaction, *not* the other way around. As such, this is an extremely complex issue to address.

[Tarquin]

The first point is; Not everyone wants or needs an address full stop. They take care of paying taxes and do not require addresses to do so. MANY countries are like this. This is the ORIGINAL POINT of this topic.

The second point is that the setting could be tied to PayPal where a setting can be within the gateway that allows;

Quote

[   ] Do not require address (PayPal will send an address during API response)

This option on a global level is what we are asking for though. The decision should be in our hands not yours or invisions on this case;

General Settings > Require Address for Digital Products

OR

Product Setting > Require Address for this product (Checked by default)

[Marcher Technologies]

.... To be crystal clear, I'm not arguing against it. Just explaining why I could see this taking a bit to sort through a viable resolution on, it seems simple from the standpoint of just Paypal, toss in the other payment gateways and it becomes a fairly complex change.

The entire checkout step order will need redone for example, to allow selecting a payment gateway before address input, allowing the gateway the control to make it optional. While Paypal has an 'account credit' system in place, most will just process online transactions against debit/credit cards, which outright requires a billing address, period.

[Tarquin]

Just now, Marcher Technologies said:

.... To be crystal clear, I'm not arguing against it. Just explaining why I could see this taking a bit to sort through a viable resolution on, it seems simple from the standpoint of just Paypal, toss in the other payment gateways and it becomes a fairly complex change.

I can agree with that, and thank you for clarifying that. The change is less complex if the setting is tied to the gateway but again, I digress that the setting should global or per-product. If someone fails to uphold a law because they misuse software, that is their decision, however the substantially larger portion of us who want this feature want it for legitimate reasons.

Thanks for your input and sorry for coming across as defensive... its been frustrating to lose business over changes out of our control... the only way to fix is to pay for custom development which we're priced out of, especially when we have lost business.

[opentype]

3 hours ago, Tarquin said:

So here and now... please SHUT UP about tax and let us ask for a feature change. It wont affect you negatively, it wont cause IPS any legal issues and it WILL help users get back to where they were before this mess of 'commerce' started.

And yet another user with that silly approach of “I want something and I want everyone to shut up who doesn’t agree with everything I say”. Sorry, but isn’t how the world works. 
How about trying to understand what we are saying instead of this narrow-minded “us vs. them” approach. For starters, if you would try to understand what we are saying, you would realise, that just as Marcher just pointed out, we are not even arguing against an option not to ask for an address. We are explaining why things are the way they are and we check the validity of the specific arguments you make for this feature request. That’s all. As a result, one could even say, we are actually here to help. Helping to understand and helping to sort out the arguments that are actually valid for the feature request and eventually would convince IPS. 
Don’t try to silence us for that. Don’t tell us we are “WRONG” just because what we are saying isn’t in line with what you WANT. And don’t use that silly argument “if it doesn’t affect you, keep out of the discussion”. 

[Tarquin]

17 minutes ago, opentype said:

And yet another user with that silly approach of “I want something and I want everyone to shut up who doesn’t agree with everything I say”. Sorry, but isn’t how the world works. 
How about trying to understand what we are saying instead of this narrow-minded “us vs. them” approach. For starters, if you would try to understand what we are saying, you would realise, that just as Marcher just pointed out, we are not even arguing against an option not to ask for an address. We are explaining why things are the way they are and we check the validity of the specific arguments you make for this feature request. That’s all. As a result, one could even say, we are actually here to help. Helping to understand and helping to sort out the arguments that are actually valid for the feature request and eventually would convince IPS. 
Don’t try to silence us for that. Don’t tell us we are “WRONG” just because what we are saying isn’t in line with what you WANT. And don’t use that silly argument “if it doesn’t affect you, keep out of the discussion”. 

Actually your constant responses even though we have, over and over, explained our need for the feature change are what is frustrating the 'us' group. You guys keep coming at us with the exception of Marchers last response which raised a valid point (overcome with responses provided)

People who continue to repeat the same thing cause a stall in progress. This is the problem with politics and people stuck in their ways. By asking you to cease repeating it, we hope to progress to an answer. The biggest issue is that you are stalling something that will not affect you, it is incredibly frustrating for those of us who are financially losing because of issues with commerce (this isn't the only one, but further discussion of that would be off topic)

So no. I don't want something and anyone who is against me should shut up, I need something and anybody who hasn't got anything USEFUL to add to the argument should butt their massive egos out!

[xper]

I'm running IPB since first beta back in 2001 or 2002, can't even remember. These days I seriously thinking about  to switch to another forum software because of things @Tarquin try to explain. With IP.Subscriptions I got like 10-15 subscribers per month. With Commerce 1 for two months. That says it all.

Oh, and I give up on Commerce just because of obligatory address fields and probably soon I will be done using IPS.
Just my 2c.

[opentype]

2 hours ago, Tarquin said:

… I need something and anybody who hasn't got anything USEFUL to add to the argument should butt their massive egos out!

We can ignore  the “ego” part. It’s just too obviously ridiculous that the points made in this discussion or the participation itself have anything whatsoever to do with ego.  

Regarding the “useful” part: who defines that? Judging by the 3 pages of comments it looks like you guys would consider everything “not useful” that doesn’t support the request for the feature you want. But that’s of course not what that word means. ;-)  

[Tarquin]

Just now, opentype said:

We can ignore  the “ego” part. It’s just too obviously ridiculous that the points made in this discussion or the participation itself have anything whatsoever to do with ego.  

Regarding the “useful” part: who defines that? Judging by the 3 pages of comments it looks like you guys would consider everything “not useful” that doesn’t support the request for the feature you want. But that’s of course not what that word means. ;-)  

Your responses prove my point.

And no that isnt true, if you read my ENTIRE post you would see that I am asking you to disappear because you repeat the same useless garbage. I will no longer respond to your crap unless you have something useful to add like Marcher did.

[AndyF]

Lets keep this civil please. We can all "agree to disagree" but there's no need for it to turn nasty.

Thanks!

[-FP]

Hmm, well I would also like to have the option to quickly checkout without asking for an address or anything... specially for free non-physical products...

[Joy Rex]

I'm not sure what the issue is here - doesn't PayPal require a physical address to use its service (of course that can be falsified), and when someone purchases something from you via PP, you can see the buyer's physical address on the transaction?

If the above is correct, then couldn't a disclaimer saying to the effect of "PayPal already provides your address info, so as a small formality, please fill in the info requested". Or even better, could Commerce pull the address info into the form from the PayPal API?

If not all payment gateways utilize similar features, then perhaps make it PP specific, or at least for as many gateways supported as possible?

[-FP]

@Joy Rex I guess that's correct for paid products, but for free ones you don't get to paypal so... yes options are options, no harm to anyone and I don't see the necessity to input an address to get access to a free digital product, it could be a single click "purchase".

[MSUKForum]

It would be nice to see more priority on this. It's not some freeware/opensource package mod I downloaded, I paid for a system that should be powerful and customizable, it just feels like corners have been cut on very reasonable features.

 

And also fix the ridiculous subscription system.

When a user has purchased a subscription package and it expires, if they try to add it to their basket they get this message:

Quote

Sorry, there is a problem

You are only allowed to purchase one of this product, and you have already done so.

Error code: 1X247/1

I understand this as they must pay through the invoice but it would be a lot better if this screen redirects to the payments for invoice renewal, instead of an error that is confusing to the user.

 

Both this inconvenient address and invoice issue makes subscriptions extremely inefficient compared to before, as others have said the impact is noticeable.

 

 

18 hours ago, Joy Rex said:

I'm not sure what the issue is here - doesn't PayPal require a physical address to use its service (of course that can be falsified), and when someone purchases something from you via PP, you can see the buyer's physical address on the transaction?

If the above is correct, then couldn't a disclaimer saying to the effect of "PayPal already provides your address info, so as a small formality, please fill in the info requested". Or even better, could Commerce pull the address info into the form from the PayPal API?

If not all payment gateways utilize similar features, then perhaps make it PP specific, or at least for as many gateways supported as possible?

Subscriptions and digital content don't require an address. We are not posting anything.

[MSUKForum]

@Mark @Marc S @AndyF