NorCan Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Good folks,We're four versions into the fully supported IPS 4 launch, and the backlog of pending errors have exceeded 5000 reports. Many more bugs are reported than those that are fixed, and IPS is building a tremendous load of technical debt. While some of these reports may not be errors, or may be handled through support tickets, it is fair to say that the backlog is overwhelming, and it's growing every day. Technical debt is just like any other debt; it gets worse if it isn't paid off in a timely manner. Right now, the IPS debt is growing at an unsettling rate, and it is not sustainable in the long run.The technical debt is a show-stopper for me. Installing software with technical debt and no plan to handle it poses a sky-high risk of increased costs and displeased customers.I truly appreciate the effort of the IPS crew so far. I know you're working very hard to keep up with the backlog, and there's no doubt you're doing the best you can. Despite the continuing efforts, however, the hard fact is that IPS 4 is gaining technical debt, and it would be great if the IPS Management could share some insight to how this will be handled. All the best,Bjorn
Kevin Carwile Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Are you like a debt collector or something? You misunderstand what technical debt is. It does not refer to bug reports on a tracker or a "backlog" of technical discrepencies that need to be fixed.It refers to entropy in a system due to poor design or incomplete changes made in the system.Bug reports are not technical debt. And the IPS4 framework is not poorly designed or being updated "half-assed".Any man made system with any degree of complexity is going to have open issues... always. If that is a show stopper for you then I suggest you put the keyboard down and walk away from your computer, your phone, your car, and head for the hills.
Meddysong Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Are you like a debt collector or something? You misunderstand what technical debt is.You caught all that, Kevin, but missed the most glaring false assertion of all? "[T]he backlog of pending errors have exceeded 5000 reports." 18 pages at 25 reports per page is a challengingly high number of bugs to investigate and fix, but it's not even 10% of 5,000.
Kevin Carwile Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 You caught all that, Kevin, but missed the most glaring false assertion of all? "[T]he backlog of pending errors have exceeded 5000 reports." 18 pages at 25 reports per page is a challengingly high number of bugs to investigate and fix, but it's not even 10% of 5,000.But 5000 sounds so much more dramatic!
Terry - AKA Dumbledore Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 I little variable not mentioned is that many of the pending issues are duplicates.
NorCan Posted May 10, 2015 Author Posted May 10, 2015 Are you like a debt collector or something? You misunderstand what technical debt is. It does not refer to bug reports on a tracker or a "backlog" of technical discrepencies that need to be fixed.It refers to entropy in a system due to poor design or incomplete changes made in the system.Bug reports are not technical debt. And the IPS4 framework is not poorly designed or being updated "half-assed".Any man made system with any degree of complexity is going to have open issues... always. If that is a show stopper for you then I suggest you put the keyboard down and walk away from your computer, your phone, your car, and head for the hills.I just want a discussion regarding how IPS deals with the increasing amount of bug reports. No need for silly questions, Kevin. It is a reasonable topic for any paying customer.The bug reports are not technical debt, but the bugs certainly are. If you're a fan of the technical debt quadrant, most items in the bug tracker qualifies as prudent.I agree that there will always be bugs, but my topic is not about that. I'm raising a simple question, based on the fact that the amount of bugs are increasing - not decreasing, as you would expect through an application lifecycle. I ask if there's a plan to turn that curve.You caught all that, Kevin, but missed the most glaring false assertion of all? "[T]he backlog of pending errors have exceeded 5000 reports." 18 pages at 25 reports per page is a challengingly high number of bugs to investigate and fix, but it's not even 10% of 5,000.You're absolutely right - 5000 is not correct. Ironically, a bug in the bug tracker causes the "5083 bugs in this category" not to update when you apply a filter. Nevertheless, I stand corrected. 450 bug reports is nowhere near as serious as I first thought.
opentype Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 … based on the fact that the amount of bugs are increasing - not decreasing …I don’t get that. What numbers are you comparing here?
tAPir Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 I just wonder if any of those reporting a bug have clicked the Support link in their ACP. I just discovered it and clicked it LOL. It fixed 12 errors in my database, emptied my cache, and made a copy of the default skin ALL automatically. It fixed a few things I was fretting over and I hadn't even noticed its existence before
Management Charles Posted May 10, 2015 Management Posted May 10, 2015 We are currently focused on fixing issues both submitted via tickets and those that we are aware of separately. Many in the bug tracker are actually already fixed and every so often we go through and make a sweep through them. For example, on Thursday we marked fixed dozens of bugs in a short period as they were already sorted through other routes. So I would pose a question to you: do you obsess over the raw count in our bug tracker or do you worry about those that may actually be impacting your community? If it's the former then you're in for a lot of self-inflicted stress for no reason. If it's the latter then feel free to submit a support ticket and we will look into any issues impacting your ability to enjoy the Suite on your community. You might have 50 bugs in the tracker that are "there's a typo in this language string." Obviously we will fix those but do they indicate a "technical debt" as such? No... just a simple entry that will be sorted in due course. To answer your question more directly: we do not pay any attention to the count of bugs we pay attention to the priority of client-impacting issues. Further to this I might add that a "client-impacting issue" might not even be a bug. It might be something that's confusing, missing, not working as expected, things running slowly, using a lot of memory, and the list goes on. So again I say don't obsess over the bug tracker because we don't ... there's a lot more to making software than staring at a bug tracker list all day.
NorCan Posted May 10, 2015 Author Posted May 10, 2015 I don’t get that. What numbers are you comparing here? I'm looking at two factors: 1. The total amount of pending bug reports within a set time frame, vs. the total amount of fixed/closed: Amount of pending bugs the past week: 99Amount of fixed/closed bugs the past week: 53 2. The time slack between today's date and the oldest pending bug report: Today's date: 10/5/15Oldest report: 29/3/15. It could very well be that my theory is completely wrong! Feel free to correct me
NorCan Posted May 10, 2015 Author Posted May 10, 2015 We are currently focused on fixing issues both submitted via tickets and those that we are aware of separately. Many in the bug tracker are actually already fixed and every so often we go through and make a sweep through them. For example, on Thursday we marked fixed dozens of bugs in a short period as they were already sorted through other routes. So I would pose a question to you: do you obsess over the raw count in our bug tracker or do you worry about those that may actually be impacting your community? If it's the former then you're in for a lot of self-inflicted stress for no reason. If it's the latter then feel free to submit a support ticket and we will look into any issues impacting your ability to enjoy the Suite on your community. You might have 50 bugs in the tracker that are "there's a typo in this language string." Obviously we will fix those but do they indicate a "technical debt" as such? No... just a simple entry that will be sorted in due course. To answer your question more directly: we do not pay any attention to the count of bugs we pay attention to the priority of client-impacting issues. Further to this I might add that a "client-impacting issue" might not even be a bug. It might be something that's confusing, missing, not working as expected, things running slowly, using a lot of memory, and the list goes on. So again I say don't obsess over the bug tracker because we don't ... there's a lot more to making software than staring at a bug tracker list all day. Thanks for your reply, Charles. I sure appreciate it. I'll give it some thought!
RazorSEdge Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Other than things I can give a definite time-frame on, I tell most our members "It'll be fixed (or ready), when its fixed, (or ready)", although, I think that has been trademarked already, so I might have to start paying royalties.On a more serious note, I would have to agree with Charles, even on my site, I deal with issues in an order of severity when compared to how it impacts members, use of the site, etc. Don't get me wrong, there are some pending bug reports that I NEED FIXED ASAP as without them being fixed, may parts of my site are non-functional. But, as a long-time client of IPS, while I may wish X, Y, Z, was fixed faster, I know that it is not all that simple. I also know that at the end of the day, the staff here, while they cannot lay out a specific time-line of events, I can always be rest assured they have their clients best interests at heart and are working hard to clear all reports, tickets, and such.
Management Charles Posted May 10, 2015 Management Posted May 10, 2015 Thanks for your reply, Charles. I sure appreciate it. I'll give it some thought! My point is that the bug tracker is only a tiny piece of what happens in development. As a simple example: we did a lot of performance improvements in the 4.0.3 release and many clients reported back that it has really improved things. That certainly didn't show up as a "bug" we could cross of the list but it was an engineering improvement that benefited every client. Other examples of "nothing to check off the bug tracker list" might include: File system improvements coming in 4.0.5 Everything that was in 4.0.2 Fixes found from support tickets from non-technical users who do not know how to submit a bug to the tracker Dozens of small "clarification" changes we make for things that are not broken but could just be made easier And so on
Management Charles Posted May 10, 2015 Management Posted May 10, 2015 Other than things I can give a definite time-frame on, I tell most our members "It'll be fixed (or ready), when its fixed, (or ready)", although, I think that has been trademarked already, so I might have to start paying royalties.On a more serious note, I would have to agree with Charles, even on my site, I deal with issues in an order of severity when compared to how it impacts members, use of the site, etc. Don't get me wrong, there are some pending bug reports that I NEED FIXED ASAP as without them being fixed, may parts of my site are non-functional. But, as a long-time client of IPS, while I may wish X, Y, Z, was fixed faster, I know that it is not all that simple. I also know that at the end of the day, the staff here, while they cannot lay out a specific time-line of events, I can always be rest assured they have their clients best interests at heart and are working hard to clear all reports, tickets, and such. We are working hard on giving out information on upcoming release plans.
RazorSEdge Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 We are working hard on giving out information on upcoming release plans. I know, I check them daily I was just saying while there are things that are urgent to me (and others), as a long-time client, I know you (and the staff) are working hard to get them all done in a proper manner, which is more important than how many reports were closed out this week.
Management Charles Posted May 10, 2015 Management Posted May 10, 2015 I know, I check them daily I was just saying while there are things that are urgent to me (and others), as a long-time client, I know you (and the staff) are working hard to get them all done in a proper manner, which is more important than how many reports were closed out this week. Trust me we are working hard on getting things sorted Keep in mind as much as issues are important to you... we are the ones who have to sort out all the requests coming in so we really want them fixed! Luckily we are finding that each release we make is improving things. It's so nice when you can reply to a support request with "try upgrading" and the client comes back saying that fixed it. So we really think that over the next few weeks things will really start to firm up. I'm sure everyone can agree things are already way better now than when we first released 4.0.0 just one month ago. So imagine where we will be one month from now! We sincerely appreciate everyone's patience and understanding and are really grateful that so many people recognize that, while there are still teething problems with 4.0, each release keeps making things even better. The future really is bright once we get past this initial phase
socceronly Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 I can't imagine how awesome this is gonna be when, as Charles says, they get past this initial phase and start creating stuff .
ZakRhyno Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Good folks,We're four versions into the fully supported IPS 4 launch, and the backlog of pending errors have exceeded 5000 reports. Many more bugs are reported than those that are fixed, and IPS is building a tremendous load of technical debt. While some of these reports may not be errors, or may be handled through support tickets, it is fair to say that the backlog is overwhelming, and it's growing every day. Technical debt is just like any other debt; it gets worse if it isn't paid off in a timely manner. Right now, the IPS debt is growing at an unsettling rate, and it is not sustainable in the long run.The technical debt is a show-stopper for me. Installing software with technical debt and no plan to handle it poses a sky-high risk of increased costs and displeased customers.I truly appreciate the effort of the IPS crew so far. I know you're working very hard to keep up with the backlog, and there's no doubt you're doing the best you can. Despite the continuing efforts, however, the hard fact is that IPS 4 is gaining technical debt, and it would be great if the IPS Management could share some insight to how this will be handled. All the best,BjornWe are working hard on giving out information on upcoming release plans. @Charles should that be posted in an area that people can't see it like me? I'm waiting for release to be more fine before I renew my license.
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