IPB track record.

[skysober]

Since I get input from many other IPB site owners and we do share our experiences and thoughts on how to improve our sites using IPB software and such, placing our members always first and foremost, taking in expenses, costs to upgrade, loss of present functions, etc., I am posting this simply as an informative thread of what I hear and think my own self.

As IPB is aware, many have chosen to not change their software from 2.x to 3.x at this time. This is due to many various reason, ( and yes there are many great positive improvements - but this deals with the negatives, and does not mean they will never change to 3.x )

The major reasons are:

1) present modifications will not work with new versions.
(yes, it is realized that some of the present mods will be duplicated/made to work with 3.x eventually...)

2) Members using the test beta report that with the drastic changes in how they navigate about is confusing and being creatures of habit, they have difficulties in using the new 3.x format. While 3.x will be great for new sites, established site members would have to be 're-trained' in the features and ways to even use the site.

3) Skins are again null and void - after many paid to have custom skins designed.

After years of complaints on this, IPB devised a way to upgrade skins more easily, and one can remember quite clearly the promise that this would help solve the frustration and extreme additional expenses from occurring in the future.

4) Support for customers who bought and paid for at least one license disappears after a period of time.

Understandably, one would not expect IPB techs to go in and repair or work on a site after a year, yet even the forum for customers helping other customers, simple ticks and tricks, or past ways that a customer was helped or got something to correct or work, all are locked out for those who paid for IPB software and chose not to 'upgrade'.

The forums should be set up help in specific versions, and say for example, a customer buys a version, the forum that relates to that version should 100% accessible. The present invisionpower setup just indicates to past customers that IPB discards them as being a valid part of the community.

This is indicative that if one purchases 3.x and when it 'expires' those customers will too be locked out of areas specific to their versions.

[Rikki]

Regarding skins, there is simply no way we can do a major version upgrade and make skins compatible. I understand that's a reason to keep on 2.3.6 right now, but we hope you also understand that to move things forward, we had to redo things.

[Mark]

2.3.6 and 3.0.0 are both great products that we're very happy with. The decisions made during the development of 3.0.0 were deemed necessary to bring some great new features that many customers have been asking for.
If you choose to remain on 2.3.6 that is your prerogative and we will continue to offer support for 2.3.6 to customers with active licenses :)

[AtariAge]

Some comments,

[quote name='skysober' date='25 June 2009 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1245955847' post='1814310']
As IPB is aware, many have chosen to not change their software from 2.x to 3.x at this time. This is due to many various reason, ( and yes there are many great positive improvements - but this deals with the negatives, and does not mean they will never change to 3.x )
I will not be upgrading my forum to 3.0.0 yet as there are a few elements that are not yet in place:

- Alternative view for the search results to make them more in line with 2.3.x (bfarber said he is going to tackle this).
- Some Sphinx issues need to be addressed.
- Can't yet run the rebuildPosts script as it consumes mass quantities of resources on my large database and brings the rest of my site to a halt.

Once these issues are addressed, you can bet I'll be upgrading. To address some of your concerns:

(yes, it is realized that some of the present mods will be duplicated/made to work with 3.x eventually...)
While this is a bit inconvenient, the new underlying architecture is going to allow authors considerably more power and flexibility in designing modifications for the forum. I really look forward to what people dream up, and I have a long list of mods I want to code myself.


You're right, there will always be people who are resistant to change. I've gone through several iterations of forum software now, as my site's been online since early 2001. Started with UltimateBB, then migrated to phpBB at some point, and then ultimately to Invision, which I've been running for four or five years now. Each time has been a significant change for the userbase, although I have managed to convert all the message content (and that has not been a trivial task! I had to do a lot of work to the phpBB->IPB converter to add attachment support, among other things, when first moving to IPB). Some people will bitch and moan, but sorry, that's the price for progress.


Yes, this is a pain, but in my limited experience thus far it's going to be easier to skin than 2.3 was. This will probably be the one area I have to invest the most amount of time in before I can upgrade my forum.

..Al

1) present modifications will not work with new versions.

2) Members using the test beta report that with the drastic changes in how they navigate about is confusing and being creatures of habit, they have difficulties in using the new 3.x format. While 3.x will be great for new sites, established site members would have to be 're-trained' in the features and ways to even use the site.

3) Skins are again null and void - after many paid to have custom skins designed.

[Brett B]

1) IPS has been warning users of this for months. IPB 3 is a complete rewrite from the ground up utilizing new, more efficient PHP 5 code. The base code is completely different, and it's a totally new version. You simply can't expect to move forward this much and be able to use old modifications. It's irrational.

2) I disagree that there are "drastic" changes in navigation. Some people obviously dislike change, but I think the layout, location/placement of features, navigation, etc. are much more intuitive and user-friendly.

3) Same answer as number one. As the software code is brand new, so is the skin and templating. IPS has been warning users of this for months, during which time you could have sought out a designer to upgrade your skin to IPB 3 or make a new one for you. With a new major version and major improvements in such a version, it is inevitable that old, outdated skins will no longer work. Same goes for modifications.

4) If you want access to support, upgrades, and Resources, then renew your license for $25 for six months. You can't expect to receive all of that for free. How could the company possibly earn a profit?

I think it's fairly insulting to say that "IPS discards past customers as being a valid part of the community" when without a doubt that is not the case.

[Nervosa]

[quote name='skysober' date='25 June 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1245955847' post='1814310']
1) present modifications will not work with new versions.
(yes, it is realized that some of the present mods will be duplicated/made to work with 3.x eventually...)

With any major software upgrade there are goning to things not supported from old versions.
All IPS addon products have been made to work with v3. If there are third party mods you would like to see in v3 you should let to authors know. If there is a strong need for them maybe they'll convert them.

2) Members using the test beta report that with the drastic changes in how they navigate about is confusing and being creatures of habit, they have difficulties in using the new 3.x format. While 3.x will be great for new sites, established site members would have to be 're-trained' in the features and ways to even use the site.
I don't find v3 all that drastic in change.

3) Skins are again null and void - after many paid to have custom skins designed.
Its a major version change I wouldn't expect skins to work and making an issue about custom skins that you have paid for I find retarded.
Its like saying my feet grew and I should still be able to use my old shoes because I paid for them.

4) Support for customers who bought and paid for at least one license disappears after a period of time. Understandably, one would not expect IPB techs to go in and repair or work on a site after a year, yet even the forum for customers helping other customers, simple ticks and tricks, or past ways that a customer was helped or got something to correct or work, all are locked out for those who paid for IPB software and chose not to 'upgrade'.
I do agree with you that, yes the forums should be open of everyone.
I have seen many of posts go unanswered in the resource section. As a customer I feel I'm limiting myself with help posting there.
Maybe it should be structured different, in where only current customers can make topics yet everyone can reply.

[skysober]

4) If you want access to support, upgrades, and Resources, then renew your license for $25 for six months. You can't expect to receive all of that for free. How could the company possibly earn a profit?

Profit is one thing. Selling even only 2500 copies of the software at the average $49 it was is $122,500.00! Yes, that is a profit and is 6 digits! When I bought multiple copies of IPB, I paid what I felt at the time, to be an expensive alternative to the free forum software out there, simply because I liked the features that could be added into the software. (and I paid $39 per license times 3 - so I got a discount from the $49, in a time that the economy was good and not in a depression, not in the hundred and forty amount for each license now given only a few years later, that I am informed I must pay when I would not even be upgrading to that version! )

Now imagine if they sell 2500 at $140 (which is a 9100% increase in price from $49), that's $350,000.00 !!! and always many of the softwares features that are added in to new versions are taken from contributors who make FREE mods and give within IPB community!

Paying for support is where you are talking directly to a tech, i.e. trouble ticket or they come into the site and fix something. It is not the discussion forums, that contains useful information that a customer whom paid for that version of software is excluded from. I could see if an 'expired license' asked tech support to answer a specific question. But having a useful reading source that all customers who paid cash for a product to be excluded from IS what I am talking about.

[Alahmnat]

[quote name='skysober' date='25 June 2009 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1245964172' post='1814441']
Profit is one thing. Selling even only 2500 copies of the software at the average $49 it was is $122,500.00! Yes, that is a profit and is 6 digits!
Um, no, that's not profit, that's revenue. That money then has to go toward paying the developers to write new code, the support staff for answering tickets and processing payments, the management who run the company, the ISP for internet access (which definitely isn't cheap for businesses who do their own hosting), and all of the building rent, utilities, upkeep, and maintenance at their headquarters. And even then I'm sure I'm missing something. (Also, on what planet is $140 9100% greater than $49?)

Bottom line, IPS isn't raking in mountains of pure profit from every sale. It bothers me when people forget that there's overhead to software development (says the guy with a grandfathered lifetime license of IP.Board for $129 :whistle: )...

[skysober]

hehe... Matt put on a pot of coffee. I'm a coming over to stay in the guest bedroom at the 'headquarters' - lol

( and if you percentage INCREASE per capita... it is that... ;))

[savoybc]

Are you complaining?

If you don't like it, don't buy it... :unsure:

Corporations exist to turn a profit to their shareholders, and ultimately, they also have to pay their employees.

$350k is nothing compared to what IPS needs to pay for their employee salaries, fees, taxes, etc.

I have a perpetual license but I'm going to renew in a few months to take advantage of 3.0 mods.

[ApertureForums]

lol, I'm no math whiz, but I dont think $149 is a 9100% price increase over $49. But any way, its pretty crazy to think that the price of the forum software wouldn't increase over the years, profit/revenue isn't a bad thing, and the price of everything else has increased in those years (Though, i doubt by 9100% :D)

Also, a lot of the complaints/concerns in the thread seem like they aren't really viable to blame on invision? Modifications are provided via 3rd parties, and those are the people you want to talk about with having them upgraded/maintained.

[Zero5854]

[quote name='aurorawx' date='25 June 2009 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1245960048' post='1814365']
1) IPS has been warning users of this for months. IPB 3 is a complete rewrite from the ground up utilizing new, more efficient PHP 5 code. The base code is completely different, and it's a totally new version. You simply can't expect to move forward this much and be able to use old modifications. It's irrational.

2) I disagree that there are "drastic" changes in navigation. Some people obviously dislike change, but I think the layout, location/placement of features, navigation, etc. are much more intuitive and user-friendly.

3) Same answer as number one. As the software code is brand new, so is the skin and templating. IPS has been warning users of this for months, during which time you could have sought out a designer to upgrade your skin to IPB 3 or make a new one for you. With a new major version and major improvements in such a version, it is inevitable that old, outdated skins will no longer work. Same goes for modifications.

4) If you want access to support, upgrades, and Resources, then renew your license for $25 for six months. You can't expect to receive all of that for free. How could the company possibly earn a profit?

I think it's fairly insulting to say that "IPS discards past customers as being a valid part of the community" when without a doubt that is not the case.


On point Number 4:

Just to point this out VB I saw will be charging $195.00 but that price is for life. Meaning no upgrade or renewal fees.

I still like my IPB better just sayin.

[Jυra]

[quote name='nforums' date='26 June 2009 - 01:36 AM' timestamp='1245976563' post='1814611']
Modifications are provided via 3rd parties, and those are the people you want to talk about with having them upgraded/maintained.

That's true with many things in life. You have to show support and tell the person that you like their work.

[ColdinCbus]

[quote name='Zero5854' date='25 June 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1245978681' post='1814629']
On point Number 4:

Just to point this out VB I saw will be charging $195.00 but that price is for life. Meaning no upgrade or renewal fees.

I still like my IPB better just sayin.

vBulletin (Owned License)
The owned vBulletin Forum license allows you to run the software on your site indefinitely. Along with this license, you will receive one year of free updates. Beyond the first year, a nominal fee of $60 (or $40 if purchased within 60 days of the license expiring) is payable to obtain updates for an additional year.

edit = how did I get logged into this account.

[Zero5854]

no thats for the 3.x series. they are changing their price for 4.0. I know as I am still license holder there ;)

[MGBrose]

[quote name='Zero5854' date='25 June 2009 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1245979397' post='1814633']
no thats for the 3.x series. they are changing their price for 4.0. I know as I am still license holder there ;)


To clarify, for the life of the 4.x series, there is a renewal fee for vb 5.x. But this is all still speculation ;)

[ApertureForums]

I dont think Jelsoft has released anything official in regards to pricing yet.

[Zero5854]

--removed--

[ApertureForums]

thats from a leaked screen shot my man!

I'd list it as a good source, but probably not 100% set in stone. (Though, I do expect them to increase the price there :)

[Alex K.]

The problem is that with the proposal for the new vB license you don't get ticket support. ;) If I remember correctly (I saw the other screenshots), ticket support was proposed to be $60/year, so if you got that as well, you're paying $45 more for the license and $10/year more for support compared to IPB.

[Wolfie]

[quote name='BacTalan' date='26 June 2009 - 04:41 AM' timestamp='1246005700' post='1814811']
The problem is that with the proposal for the new vB license you don't get ticket support. ;) If I remember correctly (I saw the other screenshots), ticket support was proposed to be $60/year, so if you got that as well, you're paying $45 more for the license and $10/year more for support compared to IPB.

Actually, they get ticket support. It's being considered about how to do the time limit of offered support though. It's at 30 days of support but is being considered to make the 30 days start with the submission of the first ticket, with there being a 90 day maximum cut-off. Also, the additional year of support would be $80, not $60.

[Charles]

$80 a year just for support is a lot...

We do $50 per year ($25 every 6 months) which includes support, updates, and some new tools/perks we're working on later this summer.

[Wolfie]

[quote name='Charles' date='26 June 2009 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1246020878' post='1814883']
$80 a year just for support is a lot...

We do $50 per year ($25 every 6 months) which includes support, updates, and some new tools/perks we're working on later this summer.

One of the things that I recall liking from the ideas I read (didn't read all of it) was the idea of the support time not starting until the first ticket is submitted, with a maximum deadline for support. I've never needed to get any real support on any of my licenses, but the idea of the support window being flexible sounds nice.

The other was that when someone owns a license (version), they get updates for that entire line for that version. Sort of like the perpetual license once offered by IPS, except that theirs is limited to the version the customer paid for.

With this being the area for feedback, I'd toss in the idea that perhaps when someone buys a new license (not including renewals), that they still get 6 months of support, but that the support starts on the first ticket, with the maximum being a year, with having access to downloads of that version for a year. If they use up their support (say they submit a ticket to have it installed after the first day), then they renew support 6 months later, their download time wouldn't extend any. Since I barely ever need support myself and already have the IPB licenses that I'll need, this wouldn't affect me, but I'm sure it would attract many more customers, especially now.

Just thought I'd toss that out there. Whether or not it makes any difference, again, doesn't affect me since I already have my licenses. Just want more people to buy IPB, so that the product has financial support and can continue to grow.

[bfarber]

I removed the posted "leaked screenshot". We ask that you avoid posting those here, out of respect for our competition please. Thanks. :)

[skysober]

My thought on trouble tickets... Why not just do as most dedicated servers offer or even as most commercial software support does. Instead of paying for something you hopefully will not need (and IPB software should work out of the box, so it isn't like one needs support daily,) Just have a set amount for a trouble ticket. Yup. If you are not paying for 'yearly' support, then have a set rate for each ticket.

And since it seems that past customers will continue to be locked out of the forums that give past assistance by IPB and customers helping customers with their purchased versions, maybe then offer a fee for past customers to access that area, which would solve about 99% of their need to even place a trouble ticket.

Ways need to be found to bring back old customers as well. In this depressive economic period where so many companies and businesses are going under, costs are being scaled back everywhere. It's always simple business logic to have many customers at a low price, then a few at a high price. Loose those few at the high price and it's all over... loose a few low price customers and it doesn't impact the company as much.

For myself, being out of work for almost 7 months now (Southern California is officially at 11.2% unemployment, but in reality closer to 22%,) if the dedicated servers had not gone down to half in price, I would have shut down all of my servers. Donations into one site for example last year was about $350 a month. This year it's been an average of less than $50... Ways to save, and ways to retain customers, must be looked at closely, and means to get even a small profit is better than no profit at all - which is what happens if it is out of reach...