How to associate a product with another one

[OptimusBain]

Hello,

I've tried a couple of times to associate two products and I couldn't make it work. I would need help. 

This is what I want to do:

1. Create Poduct1 that has a fixed price that will grant the member access to certain forums.

2. On the registration process, if the product 1 is selected, the member should see the associated product called Membership which is a monthly recurring payment.

Is that possible? I've tried this in the past and I couldnt make it work.

I want to display the membership product only to those that have decided to but the Product1. 

The end result would be that the Product 1 has been purchased and the member has a recurring monthly fee.

I want to do this since ACP does not allow to create recurring payments with the recurring fee different to the initial price. I've requested this feature but I have no idea what IPS plans are about it. You can create these products, the functionality is there, but it will break things down if done.

Thanks

 

[Marc]

It would help more to understand what you already haves et up, and what is not working. You would use the "Must associate" options to achieve this at the bottom of the product setup page (first tab)

[opentype]

2 hours ago, OptimusBain said:

I want to do this since ACP does not allow to create recurring payments with the recurring fee different to the initial price.

This is certainly possible. What is not working for you about that?

I also don’t see how your work-around of using associated products can help with anything. Even if the setup would work and would make sense for the users, it would just create a regular purchase of product B. I don’t see why you wouldn’t just offer product B directly. 

[OptimusBain]

9 minutes ago, opentype said:

also don’t see how your work-around of using associated products can help with anything. Even if the setup would work and would make sense for the users, it would just create a regular purchase of product B. I don’t see why you wouldn’t just offer product B directly. 

I can't offer the product directly. Product 2 will be optional for those that buy product 1 

Product 1 is a course. Product 2 is the monthly fee for those that want to have monthly coaching. It is a renewal recurring product that can be purchased ONLY if the member purchases the course, that's why I want the products associated in the checkout. Isn't that what the associated products are all about? Unless I am understanding it completely wrong.

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by OptimusBain

[opentype]

Yeah, this could work with the “Must associate” option as mentioned. 

[OptimusBain]

3 hours ago, Marc Stridgen said:

It would help more to understand what you already haves et up, and what is not working. You would use the "Must associate" options to achieve this at the bottom of the product setup page (first tab)

Marc, I've been trying and I just cannot make the association work 😞 I don't know what is wrong.

This is what I've done.

I've created two products:

1. Test Course. This course CAN be associated with a monthly renewal
2. Test Renewal. This is the renewal product that can be associated with the Test Course

I've edited both products and associated them with each other. I don't know which one should be the parent or how that works. See screenshot. I've tried with the two settings 1) MUST be associated and 2) MUST be associated

 

This is what happens in the checkout process:

• When I add ANY of the two associated products to the shopping cart, I won't be prompted to select the associated product
• If I set the product as "Can be associated", the checkout process will not display the associated product
• If I set the products as "Must be associated", the checkout process will NOT display the product either. It will display the example error message I wrote

No matter what I try, I cannot associate two products. I don't know if I am doing something wrong 😞

This is what I want accomplish:

1. Member adds Test Course to the cart
2. He is prompted to choose the Test Renewal (monthly renewal) associated with it. He CAN choose to add the Test renewal or NOT.
3. The purchase is done for both products if the member chose to. He's charged the Test course price and the "renewal test" fee for the first month

How can I do that? I created the products in ACP, tried to associate them and made a few tests. I just can't make it work 😞 What am I doing wrong?

I read the guide on how to associate products and I don't think I am doing anything wrong. I have to otherwise it would work.

Thanks

Edited June 6, 2022 by OptimusBain

[Marc]

You would have "must be associated" set on the item that must be associated with another. Only you can answer the question as to what that is. 

As an example, we have a core product. People can purchase forum, or gallery, or any other application. Those applications must be associated with core. 

So the first question here is, can you purchase any one of those without the other? Do you want people to be able to purchase a renewal without a course?

[OptimusBain]

1 minute ago, Marc Stridgen said:

You would have "must be associated" set on the item that must be associated with another. Only you can answer the question as to what that is. 

As an example, we have a core product. People can purchase forum, or gallery, or any other application. Those applications must be associated with core. 

So the first question here is, can you purchase any one of those without the other? Do you want people to be able to purchase a renewal without a course?

Thanks a lot

I want the core product to be the "Test Product", and then optionally members could add the "Test renewal" product.

What settings should I use in the association block for each of them to make it work as I need?

Thanks!

[Marc]

OK, so "Test product" should be set to can associate. The test renewal product should be either can associate, or must associate. It will then not allow you to add the test renewal product unless you have test product in the cart already, or you already have one purchased. You would then add into the description "Must purchase x in order to purchase this product" or similar.

[OptimusBain]

24 minutes ago, Marc Stridgen said:

OK, so "Test product" should be set to can associate. The test renewal product should be either can associate, or must associate. It will then not allow you to add the test renewal product unless you have test product in the cart already, or you already have one purchased. You would then add into the description "Must purchase x in order to purchase this product" or similar.

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately, I do not understand the logic behind the frontend 😞

When I try to purchase the product, I will not be prompted to add the associated product at any moment 😞 How can a user know that he can buy an associated product if he cannot see/read that it's possible?

This is what I've done:

Test Course (Core). I associated it with Test renewal

 Test Renewal.  I associated it with the Test Product

 

 

I can't see any suggestions to add the renewal to the cart 😞

I mean, what I understood with the association of products is that I can link two or more products together in the checkout so that users cannot buy one product without the associated product. Isn't that how it works? But how can a member know about such association?

I want those that purchase the Test Product (CORE) to purchase the renewal as well (if they want to), but I can't see the software suggesting the purchase.

When I add the Test Product (CORE) to the shopping cart, it just requests the payment information, it does not offer me the possibility to add the "Test renewal" to the cart. 😞

Then I said, ok, I will try to add the Test Renewal to the cart. I can't even do that. I see the error message I wrote in ACP. There is no possibility of adding/suggesting the associated product. It's just blank-

 

I do not understand what this product association does and when the associated product is shown to the member to add it to the cart. I just can't see the logic, no matter how I look at it 😞 It's counter-intuitive. I've used many websites where I add a product and then I am automatically suggested the "associated products" so that i can add them to the cart together with the original product. The way it's done or I see it now, it doesn't work using that logic. I don't know which logic uses really. If I can't understand the logic, then members won't either 😞

[Jim M]

Is "Up-sell in store?" enabled with your renewal product? This will show it below the next steps screen when a user adds the associated product to their cart.

NOTE: it will not show anything on the checkout screen to recommend it, only right after the user adds the associated product to their cart.

[OptimusBain]

8 minutes ago, Jim M said:

Is "Up-sell in store?" enabled with your renewal product? This will show it below the next steps screen when a user adds the associated product to their cart.

NOTE: it will not show anything on the checkout screen to recommend it, only right after the user adds the associated product to their cart.

I tried to enable the "Up-sell in store" and now the associated product is mentioned, it's shown as related product in a popup. I don't know why in a popup.

But it doesn't solve my problem and what I understand from association.

I've got two products:

1. Test Course (it's the core, or parent product)
2. Test renewal (it's the associated monthly renewal that members must buy to have support in the course forums)

The Test renewal product can only be purchases WITH the Test Course product: together. 

This is what I expected:

• When I start the checkout process, I add the Test Course to the shopping cart
• Since the Test Course is associated with the Test Renewal and the Test renewal product is a MUST. Both should be purchased at once
• There is no possibility to add both at the same time

It's only possible to add the Test Renewal (secondary product) if you click on the popup. Once you add the Parent Product (Test Course), to the shopping cart, the Test Renewal (secondary product associated as a must) is GONE 😞 I added the parent product to the cart and now there is NO possibility of choosing the associated product 😞

 

What I want to do is:

1. Associate two products
2. Both products should be purchase at once since they are associated
3. The user will buy a course product AND the support renewal fee to coach him
4. Both products must be purchased at once

I just can't see the logic and frontend friendliness to do this. I get lost every time and lose track of the associated product 😞

Why am I trying to do this? Because as I reported a few times, even though ACP allows us to do it, it's not possible to create a product where the renewal price is different to the initial price. So I thought, let's create two associated products. 1) The parent product 2) The renewal membership product.

None of the options are working. I don't know how to do this. I am quite limited. There is no way to set a renewal price different to the initial price, even though, ACP allows to do that. If you do that, it breaks everything down. Any news about this issue?

If I try to associate two products,  the associated product is gone once the parent product is added to the cart. The user will NOT know what to do and how to add it 😞 

[OptimusBain]

32 minutes ago, Jim M said:

NOTE: it will not show anything on the checkout screen to recommend it, only right after the user adds the associated product to their cart.

Imagine you are a user that wants to buy a product and it's associated product. How can I explain the user what to do when I don't even know how to do it?

I mean. The two products are associated and there is no way to add the secondary product to the cart if you do not select the secondary product in the popup and added to the cart. It's just impossible. Any user will get lost. 

Then you cannot add custom texts to explain things in detail because those blocks are not page independent, they are displayed everywhere.

No matter how I look at it, I can't see the logic behind it. It goes against common sense.

If two products are associated, the user should be able to see the associated products AT ANY TIME in the front end. If not, how is he supposed to buy them? We can't coach him on how to do such a simple thing. If I am lucky, I might have him open a support ticket to ask about it. Most likely, he will just leave without purchasing because we made it too difficult for him to purchase 😞

The products and checkout process is well done for a single product, it's a no brainer. When it comes to different associated products, it's counter intuitive and the users will abandon their carts without purchasing anything.  

is there a way to see the associated products seen always? Is there a way to sell both of them at once? A + B. No brainer. No back and forth losing track of the parent product. Users don't know about associated products, parent and child. It's very difficult to sell something to someone, the way it's done makes it even mor difficult or impossible without lecturing the user how to do it.

Edited June 6, 2022 by OptimusBain

[Jim M]

I'm afraid, here in support I can only instruct you on what is currently possible in the software today. If you would like any feature changed, please provide your suggestion in our Feature Suggestion forum.

There are only two options currently:

1. Your products are optionally associated where, what I described above, would be the only way to reference and prompt your users to buy the optional product.
2. Your products are required to be associated where, when the user buys x, they are forced to buy y.

From what I've read here, you're looking for both at the same time, which I'm afraid, is not possible.

 

If you are looking for an alternative, you could always create 2 products, one has your support/renewal baked in and the other does not. This way you can accomplish the above with separate products.

 

[OptimusBain]

@Jim M Not only that. The users cannot see the products associated in the associated products' pages 😞

See below, this is the parent product. The associated products are NOT displayed. The user is blind

The secondary product (child) page does not display the associated product (s). Its parent product.  The product is not
Shown 😞 😞 I selected it in ACP but the Product is not displayed.

This is making it impossible for any user to buy, more than impossible. If he does purchase both associated products, he deserves a huge gift, because I can't see how he would be able to do it when the frontend is hiding all that information and the associations are not displayed anywhere 😞 It's just impossible 😞

This workflow is just illogical and punishes the user that wants to buy and also the site's owner because of the huge amount of abandoned carts.

5 minutes ago, Jim M said:

I'm afraid, here in support I can only instruct you on what is currently possible in the software today. If you would like any feature changed, please provide your suggestion in our Feature Suggestion forum.

There are only two options currently:

1. Your products are optionally associated where, what I described above, would be the only way to reference and prompt your users to buy the optional product.
2. Your products are required to be associated where, when the user buys x, they are forced to buy y.

From what I've read here, you're looking for both at the same time, which I'm afraid, is not possible.

 

If you are looking for an alternative, you could always create 2 products, one has your support/renewal baked in and the other does not. This way you can accomplish the above with separate products.

 

I am sure whether I understood what you explained to me in the last paragraph about the two products.

What I want is this:

I want two products associated. Parent and Child. I want both of them to be purchases at the same time. It has to be a MUST. The parent goes with the child, and the child goes with the parent. So when I choose the parent, I am forced to add the child and viceversa. How could I do that with the two products that i've already created? What settings and what kind of associations should I choose?

THanks

Edited June 6, 2022 by OptimusBain

[Marc]

The reality is, you are asking fot something that isnt present. As I mentioned previously, you would need to indicate yourself in some way that they need to purchase another item in order to purchase that. Adding a description with a link to the other item would be the most common way to achieve this.

I do need to point out something you mention in your first post, which has been pointed out before. This statement is incorrect

Quote

I want to do this since ACP does not allow to create recurring payments with the recurring fee different to the initial price. 

It is PayPal which does not allow this. If you switched to using stripe, you would not have the issue of not being able to do that.

If you have an initial term that's different, PayPal Subscriptions cannot be used. It is not commerce itself that cannot be used, just PayPal subscriptions. 

[OptimusBain]

30 minutes ago, Marc Stridgen said:

It is PayPal which does not allow this. If you switched to using stripe, you would not have the issue of not being able to do that.

That's incorrect Marc. I've have been using a software called amember.com connected to vBulletin that let me create renewal prices different to the initial price. I've been using it for 10 years, not a SINGLE issue in 10 years and vBulletin (a forum, your competition). Not a single one. And you are telling me that PayPal is the problem. I am sorry, that's not true.

So, PayPal is not the issue. I recommend that you look into it or how do they do because PayPal is definitely not the problem, otherwise I would have run into trouble in the thousands of payments that have been processed with PayPal over 10 years.

I've been in direct contact with them for many years and neither PayPal nor Stripe had issues with recurrent payment fees being smaller than the initial price. You can see their billing plan for any product below, it works seamlessly and super flexible.

What I still do not understand is how IPS can let Commerce create renewals with a different price than the initial price with PayPal without warning that if you do, it will break the renewals in Commerce  😞 I mean, I do not understand. I've warned about this issue many times. Not a single warning has been added. The functionality is still there. The software will not only NOT warn you, but it will let you go ahead. If you do, you are in trouble my friend.

IPS is complaining about the support tickets that self-hosted system can generate. What about preventing these tickets from happening by fixing this issue? Or at least warning and disabling PayPal renewals in this scenario for now?

Edited June 7, 2022 by OptimusBain

[OptimusBain]

@Marc Stridgen Did I understand correctly? Can the stripe gateway in ACP process renewals with a a price different to the initial price? Like $100 initial price, then $50 each period? Can you confirm that?

Thanks 

Edited June 7, 2022 by OptimusBain

[Marc]

I believe we need to clear a few things up here, as I see this has come up quite a few times in tickets with yourself as well as in topics

Quote

 

That's incorrect Marc. I'm have been using a software (amember.com) that let me create renewal prices different to the initial price. I've been using it for 10 years, not a SINGLE issue in 10 years. Not a single one. So, PayPal is not the issue. I recommend that you look into it or how do they do because PayPal is definitely not the problem, otherwise I would have run into trouble in the thousands of payments that have been processed with PayPal over 10 years.

I've been in direct contact with them for many years and neither PayPal nor Stripe had issues with recurrent payment fees being smaller than the initial price. You can see their billing plan for any product below, it works seamlessly and super flexible.

 

Contacting another software company to find out why our software isn't allowing something is not going to give you the correct answer. Quite simply, it depends on what method they are using to integrate with paypal. We use paypal subscriptions, which does not allow this to be done at the present time. Whether or not you believe that to be correct is of course entirely up to your own discretion. We unfortunately can only tell you how we integrate. We can speak to you and assist you in getting to where you wish to be, if its possible within our platform. However stating we are incorrect leaves us at a bit of a loss on how to assist. Simply, if you dont believe what we say about the software we wrote, how can we help?

Quote

What I still do not understand is how IPS can let Commerce create renewals with a different price than the initial price with PayPal without warning that if you do, it will break the renewals in Commerce  😞 I mean, I do not understand. I've warned about this issue many times. Not a single warning has been added. The functionality is still there. The software will not only NOT warn you, but it will let you go ahead. If you do, you are in trouble my friend.

IPS is complaining about the support tickets that self-hosted system can generate. What about preventing these tickets from happening by fixing this issue? Or at least warning and disabling PayPal renewals in this scenario for now?
 

And I see there have been suggestions about that, so thank you for those. 

13 minutes ago, OptimusBain said:

@Marc Stridgen Did I understand correctly? Can the stripe gateway in ACP process renewals with a a price different to the initial price? Like $100 initial price, then $50 each period? Can you confirm that?

Thanks 

This is correct, yes.