Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 We have looked at options. The biggest issue for us is entrusting the data to a third party. Grading users registering would be out of our hands. Askimet deals with content, though, not members. There are other free services out there but none of them could handle the load that tens of thousands of IP.Boards would generate. We wouldn't want to rely on something that was unreliable. There would also be nothing stopping them from changing how their services work at a drop of a hat forcing us to make a quick release or update, etc.
John Swallow Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 How kind of you to permit this. Do you want some serious feedback though? I'm very unimpressed with the way you announced this. Here's the original announcement: Pricing To further our continuing efforts to not only enhance the products we offer but also the services around those products: this service will be offered at no additional charge to those with an active support and service license for IP.Board and for IPS hosting customers! As far as I can tell I have an active support and service license. Otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to log tickets with and download software from you. Wonder what a Trading Standards department would make of this if you were a British company?Then you can carry on with your current license just fine.
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Sorry for opening the other topic, didn't notice this one. For me, it's not about the money. It's about principle and respecting the core of your customer base that made you what you are today. I've been keeping an active support license pretty much since I got the perpetual license and in all that time I'm not sure if I put in more than 1-2 tickets (we're talking years here). The only reason I've kept it going is to support IPS and their products. I don't really need the support part (both the perpetual and lifetime license have lifetime downloads anyway). I can understand your point of view on this, but for me it just seems you're money hungry. I can understand not offering it to people without active support but this is just not very well thought out. The costs you mentioned are there and I understand that. However, I doubt the cost is so large that you have to force your old time customers who supported you in the beginning out of their licenses for an additional $20/yr. Without us old customers you would not be where you are today. Also, these old licenses haven't been available for purchase for a very long time now. You should be treating our support licenses the same as you treat regular support licenses. We're getting the shaft here because we support you earlier than other people did. Alternatively (if it was really about the money), you could have simply given us an option to keep our licenses but pay $50/yr instead of $30/yr for these additional benefits. Call it an "extended support level" or something. You haven't done that either. The only conclusion one can be make is that you want to force people out of their old licenses and get even more money out of them. I find this incredibly disappointing. You've seriously tarnished your reputation here in my eyes. I will not be renewing my support this year.
Will Munny Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Right... it's not about the money, an extra 20 bucks a year is nothing... but I shelled out considerably more than that for a Perpetual license AND I'm still paying a support fee... So, as there is no option to use this new service as an addon for a small extra fee, the only conclusion is that I am being forced to give up my Perpetual license... i.e. the goal posts have been moved. I'm not the type of customer to complain. I am a businessman too and I recognise a business has to move forward, evolve and make money... but I feel shafted enough to complain about this and I guarantee there will be more Perpetual licence holders that feel the same when they log in and read your announcement.
Sparkal Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I am in total agreement with everyone else here whom has a perpetual license or lifetime license here. I have both the perpetual and the standard just for the record. If I really wanted this on my board, I can't get because I not willing to transfer my perpetual to a standard for the mere fact that I would lose out in the benefits of the perpetual license has to offer. More specifically, I am not willing to give up on the free upgrades regardless of if I renew support or not with that license. In order to get the extra features, we should pay an extra $20 a year without having to change the structure of our license.
Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 To reiterate, you would not be receiving a new feature but rather a new service. It's an important distinction to make. We are offering a brand new service free to standard and business license holders. It really is as simple as that. What would be the nature of your complaint, though? The fact that we are not allowing you access to a brand new service? We immediately clarified the term 'support and service license' with a reply to the announcement. I certainly apologise if the wording wasn't clear. I really don't see how anyone can claim that we've moved goal posts. Again, I reiterate, we are offering a new service that is free to current standard and business licenses. It is not a new feature within IP.Board. You still get exactly what you paid for and continue to pay for.Please understand this basic concept: we are not 'stripping features' for legacy licensed customers. We will not do that. We have a duty to uphold the terms of your license and we continue to do so willingly. It is a brand new service. At no point did we say that a licence purchase will entitle you to all new products and/or services that we provide. It's no different really from IP.Blog or Gallery, etc. They are all separate products and purchasable separately. I have a Blackberry and an unlimited data plan yet I would have to purchase a subscription if I wanted to use the installed GPS navigator. I own an iMac yet I had to purchase an extra subscription for .Mac (mobileme) access. These are additional opt-in services. We just decided to give ours away free as long as you have an active or business license.In order to get the extra features, we should pay an extra $20 a year without having to change the structure of our license. Wonder what a Trading Standards department would make of this if you were a British company? So, as there is no option to use this new service as an addon for a small extra fee, the only conclusion is that I am being forced to give up my Perpetual license... i.e. the goal posts have been moved.
Will Munny Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='Matt' date='23 July 2009 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1248333642' post='1831360'] We are offering a brand new service free to standard and business license holders. It really is as simple as that. So why not offer the 'service' to your legacy customers for a fee?... ... It's because you want me to give up my Perpetual license.
kirov Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 only active license customer can use the new service?
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='Matt' date='23 July 2009 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1248333642' post='1831360'] To reiterate, you would not be receiving a new feature but rather a new service. It's an important distinction to make. We are offering a brand new service free to standard and business license holders. It really is as simple as that. What would be the nature of your complaint, though? The fact that we are not allowing you access to a brand new service? We immediately clarified the term 'support and service license' with a reply to the announcement. I certainly apologise if the wording wasn't clear. I really don't see how anyone can claim that we've moved goal posts. Again, I reiterate, we are offering a new service that is free to current standard and business licenses. It is not a new feature within IP.Board. You still get exactly what you paid for and continue to pay for.Please understand this basic concept: we are not 'stripping features' for legacy licensed customers. We will not do that. We have a duty to uphold the terms of your license and we continue to do so willingly. It is a brand new service. At no point did we say that a licence purchase will entitle you to all new products and/or services that we provide. It's no different really from IP.Blog or Gallery, etc. They are all separate products and purchasable separately. I have a Blackberry and an unlimited data plan yet I would have to purchase a subscription if I wanted to use the installed GPS navigator. I own an iMac yet I had to purchase an extra subscription for .Mac (mobileme) access. These are additional opt-in services. We just decided to give ours away free as long as you have an active or business license. Make a new "service and support" plan available to lifetime and perpetual customers and charge $50/yr ($25 / 6 months) for it. Then those who want the additional services can simply renew the more expensive plan. Why force us to give up our licenses? Yes, you are not 'stripping features' for legacy licensed customers. Instead, you are forcing the 'legacy' customers to give up their licenses in order to use a new service. Unacceptable.
Will Munny Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 It may be unacceptable (and it is) but there's nothing we can do about it. IPS are keeping their promise to legacy customers... and just making them feel second class to newer customers by withholding a new 'service' from us if we don't play along and give up our licenses. What a total disgrace... and what a shabby way to treat me. I've been a loyal customer and saw a future in IPB so I forked out for the Perpetual. I also continue paying support fees and participate actively in Beta testing... yet I'm still excluded. Explain why you won't make it available for a fee equivalent to the difference in cost (over and above my annual support fee)?
wepfijweoifj Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I would like to request this topic to be closed. It's obviously getting out of hand. Listen: If you want the service, OK, change your license! Otherwise, continue to use your board like you used to. It's. just. a. tiny. service. No one is forcing you to change. IPS is right. Stop arguing and acting like little kids! That's my job, being 14. And IPS, you shouldn't put up with this. I don't pay you to tell excuses to customers who 'just don't get it'... So get to work with IP.Board 3.0.2! :P
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='aeharding' date='23 July 2009 - 09:51 AM' timestamp='1248335480' post='1831380'] I would like to request this topic to be closed. It's obviously getting out of hand. Listen: If you want the service, OK, change your license! Otherwise, continue to use your board like you used to. It's. just. a. tiny. service. No one is forcing you to change. IPS is right. Stop arguing and acting like little kids! That's my job, being 14. And IPS, you shouldn't put up with this. I don't pay you to tell excuses to customers who 'just don't get it'... So get to work with IP.Board 3.0.2! :P Being forced out of something you've paid for to have an additional benefit directly connected to the product you've paid for is not acceptable. Acting like little kids? Thanks for the insult (ironic considering you're 14). We're not asking to get anything for free. We're PAYING customers. We pay $20 less a year than normal customers. Fine, give us the ability to pay the standard rates WITHOUT giving up licenses we've paid for and I'll shut up. I won't stop using IPS products as I think they make great products, but if they make us do this then instead of saying "Great products and great company" when someone asks me about them I'll say "Great product but company that doesn't care about its customers". Simple as that.
wepfijweoifj Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Then I guess you're kinda SOL, huh? >_< Here's a thought if money is out of the question: Buy a new license and use that code with your board. You'd still have your license then. Not great company because of a simple, small thing that barely matters? Get outside. ;)
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='aeharding' date='23 July 2009 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1248336476' post='1831387'] Then I guess you're kinda SOL, huh? >_< Here's a thought if money is out of the question: Buy a new license and use that code with your board. You'd still have your license then. Not great company because of a simple, small thing that barely matters? Get outside. ;) Simple small thing that barely matters for you. Many other (paying) customers disagree with your assessment.
Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='Patrick Shaw' date='23 July 2009 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1248335200' post='1831377'] It may be unacceptable (and it is) but there's nothing we can do about it. IPS are keeping their promise to legacy customers... and just making them feel second class to newer customers by withholding a new 'service' from us if we don't play along and give up our licenses. What a total disgrace... and what a shabby way to treat me. I've been a loyal customer and saw a future in IPB so I forked out for the Perpetual. I also continue paying support fees and participate actively in Beta testing... yet I'm still excluded. Explain why you won't make it available for a fee equivalent to the difference in cost (over and above my annual support fee)? Honestly, it was never our intention to make anyone feel 'second-class'. We just introduced a new service to help combat spam. If there's enough demand for a separate pay-for service then we'll be foolish to not consider it. Please understand that we value all our customers and will always take on any feedback that's given.
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='Matt' date='23 July 2009 - 10:41 AM' timestamp='1248338494' post='1831395'] Honestly, it was never our intention to make anyone feel 'second-class'. We just introduced a new service to help combat spam. If there's enough demand for a separate pay-for service then we'll be foolish to not consider it. Please understand that we value all our customers and will always take on any feedback that's given. I don't think a separate service would be all that great (at least not if you plan on making specific pricing for every new thing you introduce). Simply make the standard support and service fees of $25 / 6 months available to Perpetual and Lifetime license holders. That would solve it instantly and I don't see what you'd loose from it.
Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 Well, if we did we'd have to make it optional. I don't think that a current perpetual license holder who is used to paying $30 a year for support is going to appreciate a price hike.
Dannyarr Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 [quote name='Matt' date='23 July 2009 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1248339999' post='1831410'] Well, if we did we'd have to make it optional. I don't think that a current perpetual license holder who is used to paying $30 a month for support is going to appreciate a price hike. (guessing you wanted to say $30 a year there :)) I wouldn't mind either way but that would probably be the way to go. :)
Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 Ah yes, I did mean year! I appreciate that you would be OK with it, but we can't assume everyone will. In any case, we will review the feedback offered and take it from there.
Nimdock Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 How about a price difference? At least for perpetuals... If a customer is active in their license, and pays the difference ($20 a year) gets the new service? Would end up paying the same as the other guys and the "second class" feeling would be gone. At time of renewal the user would decide whether he would like to pay $30 for the year for support, no extra services... Or $50 for the year for support + services. :) For lifetimers would have to be different I am guessing.
Management Matt Posted July 23, 2009 Management Posted July 23, 2009 It does get quite complex, doesn't it? It was precisely this situation that we wanted to avoid as it is a bit of a nightmare keeping track of it all in the customer center. Paying the difference would only really work on the renewal anniversary so the first question we'll get asked is "My support is up in 5 months, can I pay 40% of the $20 to access the spam service now or do I have to wait until my support is up or do I have to bring my renewal forward to today in which case can I get a partial refund or credit on my last renewal?" etc. It's an ongoing issue trying to apply legacy licenses to new frameworks and models.
Nimdock Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 Yeah... It does get complex and that's why I was mentioning the idea that the decision can only be made at time of renewal. At this time I would make it a $20 fee for perpetuals with active support regardless of the time that has passed since the last time the yearly renewal was paid. If it's little time *I* don't think they/we would mind waiting and if it's a bit longer I don't think $20 are much of a problem for those who really want the service right now. I would make it a point of no nonsense can I pay 10%, 1%, etc, clean and simple. Then when the renewal date comes again it would be time to make a decision... $50 for support + services, or $30 for support. :)
Lewis P Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I think Nimdock has got it bang on! A new purchase-able service for perpetual and lifetime holders that is $20 a year for all new services you plan on offering now, and in the future. Perpetual have the opportunity to pay $30 a year for support or $50 a year for support + services.... both can have different renewal dates if needed, it's two different 'products' As for the Lifetime holders, they can just choose to add on the services license, which is $20 a year, or $50 if it has to match. Sorted. I think that covers most of the issues, and a fair deal for everyone? I know that if I was a perpetual or lifetime holder that I'd be happy with these terms... makes a lot of sense: you are still contributing to paying for the service (the same yearly fee as a current standard), but your license terms remain in tact.
Energizer Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 For me, this is nothing more than attempt to holders of Lifetime License to pay to move. You should all consider whether it makes any sense at all such a licensing policy to accept. I think more to a sale of my license as a customer continues to be IPS. It will not be better in the future! The whole reminds me of the past, as has by said that IPB would always be free. Then came but the licensing requirement. When I think of how many forces with IP Nexus was wasted, then I can not understand why lifetime-Licences should pay for Additional services. She have already familiar with the sale of licenses paid. I will in the coming days to make a decision, it's now a pain threshold reached!
John Swallow Posted July 23, 2009 Posted July 23, 2009 I guess of course, that if this service actually works and spam is noticeably reduced, there would be the situation that spammers know that IP.Boards are not fair game, and might steer clear of them and try to attack other less-protected software, not knowing whether or not someone has paid the Lifetime/Perpetual licence tax Standard licence fee.
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