License Transfers

[TestingSomething]

I personally recommend IPS allow license transfers again. Someone is interested in buying one of mine and I'm not too sure I even need it. However without transfers I have no way to sell it because first off I'm not going to give someone this account and second even if I did want to it would mean giving them ALL licenses. I personally don't see a reason for not allowing it other than to try to get new licenses sold and then people who don't need all of their current ones are stuck. If there are reasons other than business reasons, I'm sure there would be some way to rectify them. I just can't see any problem with it at all though. If someone in the proper account asks for it to be transferred what problem does that cause at all? If it were not the real owner asking them to be transferred well they already found a way into the account so they have access to them already anyway.

[AndyF]

As far as I know, it removed due to potential issues where someone would 'sell' the same licence several times, not to mention administration headaches searching old invoices to determine who really did 'own' it.

I'm not against your idea though :) , but I would guess if this ever did re-appear it would have to be done with a small 'transfer' fee or suchlike to cover time spent checking everything was as it should be.

[TestingSomething]

Well a transfer fee would sure be better than hanging on to it and not needing the license anymore. Personally I may rather keep mine anyway, but yes if they did offer this again it would be worth a fee in most cases and then IPS gets more money out of it anyway most likely.

[A Walk in Faith]

I tend to agree with you that allowing license transfers would be nice. I also think it would be very fair of IPS to charge a small transfer fee for the time and trouble of doing the research and actually preforming the transfer.

Since I just used the vB system to sell and transfer my old vB license, I will copy and past their email they sent me and what they require. It's also something to note that vB only allows the license to be transferred ONCE. I think if IPS changes their policy, they should follow vB's path and only allow each license to be transferred once.

< - Copy of Support email from vB when I transferred my license ->

In order to transfer your license we first need to verify that you are the proper license holder. Please respond to this ticket with the following information so that we can verify this request:

- Your customer number
- The authorization code generated when you enter your password into this page: http://members.vbull...om/authcode.php
- The answer to the security question:
My Question was here - removed because it's not relevant here.

If you don't know the customer number or password, you can request either to be sent to your email address using this form:

http://www.vbulletin...bers/lostpw.php

Also please provide the following information from the purchase of this license:

- Your full name
- Email address
- Billing address
- Telephone number
- Approximate date of purchase
- Type of license (owned or leased)
- Order Method (Credit Card, Paypal, etc)

If it was a PayPal order, please include the order and item IDs from the original purchase.

In order to transfer the license we require to have the following details of the new party:

- Full name
- Full Address
- Country
- Telephone number
- Billing address
- Valid and working Email address

Before transferring the license, we will email the prospective new owner the details of the license. Once we receive confirmation from them, the license transfer will occur. They will be emailed with their new customer number and password.

Because of a large amount of fraud relating to license transfers, we have a policy regarding the transfer of vBulletin licenses. The policy states states that each license can only be transferred one time. Once it is transferred, it cannot be transferred again which means the new owner will not be able to transfer this license in the future. In addition, leased licenses are not eligible for transfer.

You can read this policy under the license agreement here: http://www.vbulletin...e_agreement.php

We sincerely regret that this policy may cause difficulties, but it is necessary to protect our interests - and those of our existing and prospective customers.

Please note that once you have transferred your license you are no longer allowed to run your own instance and are required to remove the files from your server. Also note that once a license is transferred, the transfer CANNOT be rescinded. If the buyer or transferee later charges back this purchase there is nothing we can do. Make absolutely sure you want to do this.

Best regards,
Steve Machol
Customer Support Manager, vBulletin


< - End Copy - >

Jamie

[Mat Barrie]

But then there's also other problems - IPS' main example of why they stopped this is a dodgy person using a stolen CC/Paypal account and buying a license from IPS, then selling it on. Real owner of Paypal/CC charges back transaction, IPS terminates license and sets the dogs on the person who thought they were getting a good deal on a secondhand license.

(You keep forgetting to think "crook" Jamie - it's sad that there are so many immoral and unethical people in the world, but there are. Some of them even feel it's their god-given right to simply take from others without offering anything in return. Truly astounding!)

[TestingSomething]

Well it's not fair to the people who don't break the rules and also the small fee would help counteract that. That logic would also suggest for mod authors and skin creators not to sell anything because of the people who steal and sell others' mods. I'm sure "most" people are still honest and pay properly. Just another reason to be careful when buying licenses though.

As it is now you can sell your whole account so the same thing can happen then anyway.

[rastaX]

IPB really should address this. It's a common enough scenario for people to sell off a forum after all. I had a heckuva time getting my new account set back up here after selling my old forum. My email and username were still attached to the old account. Which meant even after turning over control of the account, I was still receiving all the emails from the company, while the new owner got none. Not to mention losing 6 years of mostly excellent posts here on this forum. :rolleyes: It would have been so much easier to just transfer ownership of license key xxxxxxxxxx-xxxxxxx-xxxxx and kept the account. I basically had to include stuff I just as soon would have liked to keep, but it was all or nothing. They vetted my Conversion request before processing my payment and opening my client area, seems reasonable to me they could also set up a process for the safe transfer of licenses. I understand this would be mostly a customer service and not a profit point for them, but isn't that the thing that sets IPB apart?

[Mark]

9 times out of 10 license transfers end badly. Unfortunately, it is this high - it isn't a case of the odd person being a pain, it is every single time we do a license transfer we either find out the license was originally purchased with a stolen credit card / PayPal account, or hear things like "I didn't ask my license to be transferred!" / "The buyer never paid me, I want my license back!" / "The person I bought this license from is still running their forum!"

We want to ensure everyone is happy when they purchase IP.Board, and the only way we can guarantee that is if it is purchased from us.

[TestingSomething]

It also ensures some are not happy because they're stuck with licenses worth a lot of money that sit there being wasted. If you decide to get rid of a site you really get no compensation. And I bet it leads to some people doing "informal" transfers which is asking for trouble for sure then. As it was both people had to tell IPS it was ok so I don't know how someone could have claimed they never wanted it sold. And if someone had somehow got into their account that's not IPS' problem anyway.

[Mark]

As it was both people had to tell IPS it was ok so I don't know how someone could have claimed they never wanted it sold. And if someone had somehow got into their account that's not IPS' problem anyway.

You're right, it's not. But when we are facilitating the transfer, we have to deal with these situations.

[Guest Digital-Photography-Forums]

Why not put safeguards in place much like vBulletin has? Require the original owner to get an authorization code by entering their current password, and giving some simple information in, then not allow the transfer for 90 days. Generally after 90 days CC companies won't charge back to the buyer, and make it clear that when the license is transfered there is no way to get it back.

[Elemental Crisis]

Maybe IPS could use IP.Nexus to set some sort of license selling/buying system. Put certain rules into effect like you can only sell your license after X amount of months and have all the money handling procedures done by IP.Nexus.

[Lakai]

This is something i would like to see IPS look into again.

[Collin1000]

This is something i would like to see IPS look into again.

They just looked at it a week ago in this topic. I doubt things have changed in the last week. It isnt going to happen in the forseeable future.

[TestingSomething]

Maybe they would if someone gives them a cookie. lol

[Biker.GA]

Seems they prefer to take the easy way out on some things, rather than attempt to find a middle ground that's agreeable to all parties. One only needs to look at the alternate contact issue to see that.

[Wolfie]

Let's stop and think about this. For any company to transfer a license, more times than not they are losing money because that license is a sale that they lost out on. So let's keep that in mind before begging IPS to allow transfers again. Let's also keep in mind that when there is a high rate of transfers having problems (charge backs, etc), then it's understandable to cut it off altogether.

Personally, I think it sucks because if someone wants to sell off an add-on that I want to get, then I'm losing out from not being able to buy it. However, I understand the reasons so while it may suck, it's probably saving me headaches more times than not.

That said, if there was a way that an account holder could split their account up (provide a new email address, which is then verified), then the owner of those licenses could in essence sell off an entire account without really involving IPS, with the exception of merging accounts together. With splitting an account, it should be a process that takes a week to actually 'commit', so if someone wants to sell off some licenses, they have to set it up at least a week before offering it for sale. Also, the licenses split off would have to be a certain age before being able to get split off. This would help deter questionable activity and once the account owner gets an email notifying them of the account splitting, if they didn't want that, they can cancel it. This of course would require having an email where all notifications would be sent to, that requires certain security measures to be taken in order to change it and it couldn't be used to sign into the account. This would actually help benefit against other account issues as well.

Complex sounding but really rather simple but could allow for selling of licenses rather than entire accounts.

[Collin1000]

Seems they prefer to take the easy way out on some things, rather than attempt to find a middle ground that's agreeable to all parties. One only needs to look at the alternate contact issue to see that.

According to what the staff have posted several times in different places, 9 out of 10 (read: "most") license transfers were scams or ripoffs. When Joe runs off with your money, they come to IPS and get mad about it. I would prefer IPS spend their time answering my technical support tickets and not dealing with people ripping others off.

[bfarber]

Seems they prefer to take the easy way out on some things, rather than attempt to find a middle ground that's agreeable to all parties. One only needs to look at the alternate contact issue to see that.

Keep in mind that we HAVE already attempted to find this middle ground you speak of. We DID used to allow alternate contacts to download software and we DID use to allow license transfers. We DID already try these things, and have run into nothing but problems (costing US money), with no benefit to us as a company.

At what point does a business have to make the hard decision that something is not cost-effective and while it would be nice, it's simply not feasible for us at present? That's not to say we're not open to ideas, but no new ideas are really being presented here.


Just my personal viewpoint mind you. I don't handle accounts or money here, but I can fully understand why these decisions had to be made.

[rastaX]

According to what the staff have posted several times in different places, 9 out of 10 (read: "most") license transfers were scams or ripoffs. When Joe runs off with your money, they come to IPS and get mad about it. I would prefer IPS spend their time answering my technical support tickets and not dealing with people ripping others off.

That's actually a pretty good reason for IPB to come up with a better transfer system. This is a legitimate need that goes beyond selling off unused licenses. It is a normal part of transferring ownership of a site. In the long run, it's short sighted to think this will only cost IPB lost sales.

Example: I sold off my old forum, to do so I had to relinquish my account here. In order to start up a new forum using IPB software, I had to "clean up" my old account. My email address was still linked to my old account as was my username. I literally had to log into IPB via a different browser to get it to allow me to buy a new license. It was actually quite a bit of hassle, but I like the software so was willing to do it. But it could also prompt someone less committed to look elsewhere. It was really just a lot of hassle that needn't have been.

Maybe I am simplifying things here, but it seems rather than tying the license to an account, a license # could be transferred independently of the entire account. Verification and transfer should be handled by the IPB staff, for a fee, which would greatly reduce fraud and compensate the company for their trouble. When selling anything second hand, one should expect to take a loss and a fee based transaction should be part of the process.

In the long run, it would make a continuing relationship with IPB a lot easier for people who may start a community, transfer it to someone else and start another community. It would increase the value of IPB communities and entice experienced forum operators to continue using the software.

I feel this may not be an easy solution for IPB, but as a long term strategy, it must accept the fact that forums do change hands and people who are able to start, build and ultimately sell successful communities are a client base they will need to cater to.

You have the opportunity to grab the lion's share here of the community software business. Customer service doesn't cost money if you do it right, it makes money. ;)

[Biker.GA]

Keep in mind that we HAVE already attempted to find this middle ground you speak of. We DID used to allow alternate contacts to download software and we DID use to allow license transfers. We DID already try these things, and have run into nothing but problems (costing US money), with no benefit to us as a company.

At what point does a business have to make the hard decision that something is not cost-effective and while it would be nice, it's simply not feasible for us at present? That's not to say we're not open to ideas, but no new ideas are really being presented here.

Just my personal viewpoint mind you. I don't handle accounts or money here, but I can fully understand why these decisions had to be made.

I've already stated I have no issues with providing information that would identify myself as an authorized contact. Whether it be a copy of my license or some other means of maintaining a record of who I am and a method of contacting me other than a UserID and email address. That, in conjunction with the express approval of the account holder should go a long ways to helping cut down on unauthorized use of the software. If an account owner is going to allow unauthorized downloads based off their account, preventing alternates from downloading doesn't prevent anything. All the account holder will do is download the software and provide it elsewhere.

Even if it were based on a case by case basis, where the account owner specifies that the alternates have the ability to download, with the full understanding and agreement that the account holder will be held responsible for any unauthorized use of the software would go a long way.

While I can understand the frustration that past issues have caused (both downloading AND license transfers), the fact remains that the need is still there.

[Mark]

Guys,

Let's say Joe Bloggs sends in a ticket and says he wants to transfer his license to John Smith. You can use whatever system you like, perform all the checks you want - but at the end of it we transfer the license.
After doing this, the next day Joe Bloggs calls us and says that John Smith hacked his account, he never requested the transfer, and wants his license back.

If you were us in this this situation what would you do? You can either upset Joe (the customer who bought the license in the first place) and loose his business, or you can upset John (the new customer) and loose all his future business.
How would you deal with this? Either way, one of them is going to get pissed, certainly be vocal about this on these forums, other forums, etc. and possibly file legal action. I cannot see a way to deal with it appropriately?

How about not the next day, but a month or a year later (also a frequent occurrence)?

I'm geniunely interested - how do you want us to deal with this? Thus far, nobody has suggested a solution - you've said you want transfers, which is fine - but not how to deal with this (frequent) situation.

We're not blocking transfers to force people into paying for a new license - or in any way trying to "take the easy option" to save money - we just cannot deal with this in way we consider to be an acceptable business practice - by all means, if you have a suggestion, we're all ears.

[rastaX]

Is this possible? Someone could hack into the ticket system?

[Collin1000]

Is this possible? Someone could hack into the ticket system?

He never said hack the ticket system. He said hack the account. IE, steal the password. Social engineering. Not something too hard.

[Wolfie]

I'm geniunely interested - how do you want us to deal with this? Thus far, nobody has suggested a solution - you've said you want transfers, which is fine - but not how to deal with this (frequent) situation.

We're not blocking transfers to force people into paying for a new license - or in any way trying to "take the easy option" to save money - we just cannot deal with this in way we consider to be an acceptable business practice - by all means, if you have a suggestion, we're all ears.

What about the concept I mentioned? I mean I know it's not foolproof, but is it something that could potentially work?

It would require a few things in order to work
* A backup email address (that can only be changed by sending an email to that same address or something like a phone call from IPS to a long-term phone# on the account based on billing), this would be for security purposes. The backup should not be the primary but rather a completely different account so that if an account change is requested, the backup email account could be used to click links to challenge the actions being taken. If that happens, the account becomes 'frozen' until the real account holder can be validated.

* Member would put in a request to have certain licenses split from their account into a new separate account.

* Email would be sent to the primary email and the backup email accounts. It would notify of the transaction and a link would be provided and be valid for a week that if clicked, it would void the requested action.

* After a week, the license transferring into a separate account (or perhaps a subaccount) would be completed.

* At that point, the owner of the accounts could sell off the new account and just simply give access to the new owner.

IPS would not be involved in any way, except for possibly splitting an account. The splitting process would also not be into another existing account but into a new account.

This could also be useful if someone wants to keep everything separated for whatever reason, even if there is no desire nor intention to sell/transfer an account or any of the licenses.