When is IPB 4.0 ?

[CheersnGears]

Put a big sign next to a dead link to the 4.0 download that says "Going to Beta Testing Qx of 2014!" in red.

[Charles]

I beta test it daily... does that count? ;)

[.Ian]

Which is exactly why IPS is one particularly frustrating software vendor...

You always have a choice :)

Personally I have yet to see anything that competes.

[Clover13]

Well, I wouldn't go as far to say as Oracle and Sun have kept pushing dates out over and over and never delivered a quality product. Likewise for the umpteen open source projects out there. Regardless, the distinct advantage to that approach is the level of communication and clarity your clients have, even IF it does get bumped out.

Professionally, the company I work for wouldn't have clients if we never delivered on the dates we promised or chose to keep them in the dark on when features would be delivered.

So while I understand the advantages for IPS to operate in Black Ops mode for their development front (i.e. zero "official" timeline accountability), it doesn't bode well for their image and reputation with existing and future clients that try to utilize IPS as a backbone to their business. IPS's clients have clients, and they can't speak accurately as to availability of their own features, which in turns makes them possibly appear inept or otherwise incapable of delivering.

In my case, to a large degree, it's a non-issue. If I ever got in a bind, I would develop around and outside of IPS. But that isn't an option for everyone and it isn't fair to those that pay for software with the expectations of making it a cornerstone to their business. This is a far cry from the nitpicking date posters, this is from more of a strategic business planning and timelining aspect. At some point, with IPS's current approach, IPS's clients will be pushed into a negative space of making a decision IPS really shouldn't want them to...and that is whether they should stay with IPS, go with a competitor or go completely custom. Is it more important to remain internal about release timeframes versus instilling confidence in and retaining your existing customer base (which leads to greater growth)

I like the level and potential of the IPS software, you guys have done an excellent job on building it to where it is today, but the communication and documentation side of things could definitely be improved upon. The 4.0 implementation sounds very promising with even more enhancements on the horizon, but your client's confidence not only in IPS delivering (which WILL happen "when it's ready") coupled to their business initiatives and timelines is very unclear, uncertain, and often (officially) unanswered.

Target timelines make clients comfortable, delivering on those timelines makes them confident. Keeping both in the dark gives them neither. JMHO though, on experience on both sides of the fence.

[Mysterioux]

When is 4.0 going to be released? :rofl:

</sarcasm>

[teraßyte]

Well, I wouldn't go as far to say as Oracle and Sun have kept pushing dates out over and over and never delivered a quality product. Likewise for the umpteen open source projects out there. Regardless, the distinct advantage to that approach is the level of communication and clarity your clients have, even IF it does get bumped out.

Sorry but I just HAD to quote that... Java a quality product? :cat:

Okay, back in topic now :tongue:

[Clover13]

Haha, you had to go there huh! :devil:

EDIT: ^^^ that was actually a good response for both of you!

And c'mon, I know there's a lot of Java haters out there...but I would venture to say it's earned more than it's profitable edge in world markets...and it's open source with an absolute ton of consortiums and developers contributing to it's evolution.

I have no hate towards it...now if we were talking .NET and Microsoft...well that's a different story :)

[TracyIsland]

I really don't get all this indignation.

Our community operates on 3.3.4 and it serves our community well, and I am hard pressed to understand how that release could not currently serve any client. Certainly, there are new applications that only work with 3.4.x, but the majority of the applications are still 3.3.4 compatible.

For developers who are creating new application-laced boards for communities, 3.4.x is not some unruly, hideous mass. So if you developed something for a client, it could serve them well for several years after 4.0 is released. Good business sense should direct you to note one caveat for all 3.4.x users: that the software will have the following xx month xxxx year end of life, at which point, the software will need to be upgraded. But that notation is something you would provide to all clients whether this was 2009 or 2012.

If you look at my signature block, we use a number of applications. We cannot upgrade to 4.0 until ALL of those applications are upgraded. Then there are the 30+ hooks that we also have enabled. To me, that is the bigger issue, and one that none of us can properly anticipate. It isn't a matter of knowing when 4.0 will be released but a sense of confidence that the application developers will actually decide to redo their application for 4.0

What about skin development? What happens if a skinner decides they don't want to upgrade this or that skin for 4.0? Are you going to communicate to all of your clients that the new IPB version will probably come out in Q3 2014, but then a prudent client should wait another 3 months for the maintenance release of .1 and/or release .2 are available, and then they will have to wait probably another 8 months for most of the applications to be upgraded, and for this or that skin to be released?

I would answer no. I would develop sites for my clients with the existing architecture and fulfill their needs. Those needs would continue to be fulfilled for at least another 12 - 24 months after 4.0 has been released. I cannot even consider a client deciding that they would prefer to wait 18 - 24 months to get what they need when they can get it now.

So it really just boils down to honest communication with a client, explaining that using the IPB Suite of products will involve the following current and future costs. I can understand that specialized applications developed for individual clients will involve a supplementary cost but can you seriously assert that the US $1800 development fee for a given application will cost another US $1800 for 4.0 compliance?

If you are a developer that only works with application development for the marketplace, I would choose to develop for the current release of 3.4 because there will be certain (large?) percentage of communities who will wait to upgrade and you can continue to earn sales with those purchasers.

Lobbing a hundred lightening bolts at IPS and Charles really doesn't make any sense. Either you develop for 3.4..x or you wait and develop for 4.0 but if you choose to wait, that delay could be much longer than just a specified release date.

- Brian

[Rimi]

I beta test it daily... does that count? ;)

If there's even one bug in the beta then I'll hold you responsible. D<

[Michael R]

I was sitting here trying to go through all the various software I use and I could not find a single one that give release dates. Some are even more vague than we are. Some just say "we are working on something" and that's all you get.

During my career, I was the product manager for several software companies. Not once did I ever announce a specific release date.

[esquire]

Or we can focus on making the software very good.

What concerns me is wondering what happens when it's ultimately released for beta testing and we discover something that is best discovered during alpha among a mature test community with different configurations. For example, the URL structures for the forum had to be completely rewritten by some forum owners to correspond to what URLs should have looked like out of the box. Regarding IP.C, there are several issues that are, IMHO, serious reasons why I didn't use it. Many of us don't need release dates. We need to know what the options will be and whether we can still positively affect the development process in a timely fashion to ensure that something important isn't overlooked. I really hope you've guessed right in all major areas.

[HeadStand]

If you look at my signature block, we use a number of applications. We cannot upgrade to 4.0 until ALL of those applications are upgraded. Then there are the 30+ hooks that we also have enabled. To me, that is the bigger issue, and one that none of us can properly anticipate. It isn't a matter of knowing when 4.0 will be released but a sense of confidence that the application developers will actually decide to redo their application for 4.0

This paragraph right here is the reason for all of the indignation. Right there. You see, it's not just a matter of Admins wanting to know when v4 will be released. It's also an understanding that they will not be able to upgrade until all of the 3rd-party mods have been updated, and that takes time. Even if we developers do get access to the software earlier, that doesn't mean our mods will be ready on the day of the release. Some of us have literally hundreds of files.

To those of you who are wondering what to do with your development plans/budget: many of my clients have asked me for my opinion on 4.0, and if I had to guess, when could they upgrade? I have told all of them that they will NOT be upgrading in 2014. It ain't happening.

It's February 16th. There are no alpha releases, there are no early betas, there have been no blog entries with major features posted (unless you count separating components as a feature). This forum has not been updated. Developers have almost zero information other than the knowledge that we will all suffer from heart attacks and ulcers as we try to rewrite EVERY LINE OF CODE before our customers start threatening us with fire and brimstone. So even if the very very first version of 4.0 were made available tomorrow, I don't think it would be ready for release before at least Q3 of this year. And since I will never upgrade anyone on a .0 version.... nope, no one upgrading in 2014.

Just my 2 cents. Of course, I could be completely off base and 4.0 could be release ready next week. Who knows? Feel free to laugh at me en masse if that is the case.

[Rhett]

Headstand, Developers do get access to beta versions, this is what they are for, testing and development. You will likely have access to it the same time I do as staff.

[HeadStand]

Headstand, Developers do get access to beta versions, this is what they are for, testing and development. You will likely have access to it the same time I do as staff.

I know? When did I say we wouldn't?

[Rheddy]

I find the whole idea of a "completion gauge" to be somewhat tedious. Not only is it completely arbitrary but fore those of us who have gone through this new version release process, we're all patient. This whole "when is the new version going to be released" and "release dates" happens to come up everytime IPS announces that they are starting work on the new version of the software and it seems to always come from clients who are rather new to the IPS License/Support Community.

Give it up, already.

I would rather not have a specific release date because with forum software, it's impossible to give an accurate release date. I want the devs on the actual core IPS Community Suite to take their time and not give us a rushed product. Rushed products means things like "Microsoft rushing the latest version of Windows only to discover that the software is vulnerable to zero day exploits, bugs and glitches".

I hope IPS isn't listening to those IPS clients who are screaming for specific things like "completion gauges" and release dates. Take your time and give us a quality product. Those of us who have been through this process are patient and in no desire to rush toward a new version of the forum software. These "youngsters" to IPS need to learn patience. Because, the IPS Community Suite will be released when it's released, no earlier and no sooner. Release dates? "We don't need no stinkin' release dates".

So, THERE! BLEAGH! :tongue:

[Rimi]

Developers have almost zero information other than the knowledge that we will all suffer from heart attacks and ulcers as we try to rewrite EVERY LINE OF CODE before our customers start threatening us with fire and brimstone.

Derpa derpa derp derp

http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/397550-ipb-40-no-i-am-not-asking-when/#entry2462214

Not gonna happen bro.

Derpity derpity derp derp

http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/397550-ipb-40-no-i-am-not-asking-when/?p=2462371

We've gotten previews of the framework and I'm pretty sure that apps and stuff can be coded in a fraction of the time. You're always going on about heart attack. You realize that right? You gotta chill out. You know if this is too stressful for you you might want to reconsider your options.

[Midnight Modding]

I see both sides because people get MAD when I mention dates and never get anything done by them. It's rare to get anything done by when expected. But IPS is too far in the opposite direction, usually.

[Jim McClain]

I get that it must be annoying not knowing the release schedule...

But what is even more annoying are those members who have known the policy about release schedules for a long time, yet continue to badger staff about a release schedule and how IPS is failing them by not capitulating.

Look, I have been trying my best to be patient. I come here every day hoping to find some new bit of information - or be surprised to find the forum is currently using a beta version. It's difficult. I've had to tell my clients to wait. But I have seen the staff say time after time that it will only be released when it is time and there will be no date etched in stone for that - not even scribbled in the dust. So, I bite my lip, clench my teeth and wait. I'm a bit impatient, but still, I wait. I wait because I know the answer and nothing I've seen will change the answer. It wouldn't matter how many clients I have, how important I think my needs are, how dramatic my pleas come across or even how good looking I am - and I am DAMN good looking - the answer is always the same.

Sorry, I just had to vent. ;)

Jim

[HeadStand]

Derpa derpa derp derp

http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/397550-ipb-40-no-i-am-not-asking-when/#entry2462214

Not gonna happen bro.

Derpity derpity derp derp

http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/397550-ipb-40-no-i-am-not-asking-when/?p=2462371

We've gotten previews of the framework and I'm pretty sure that apps and stuff can be coded in a fraction of the time. You're always going on about heart attack. You realize that right? You gotta chill out. You know if this is too stressful for you you might want to reconsider your options.

1. I have no clue what "derpa derpa" means, but it sounds highly intelligent.
2. I have made it fairly clear that I sincerely dislike being referred to as "bro".
3. Don't you ever, ever, EVER tell me to chill out again. You don't know a damn thing about my personal life and you have no right to judge me. It's very easy to just tell someone that they "gotta chill out", when you know nothing about the situation.

[bfarber]

Will there be URL changes post upgrade? (assuming stock to stock)

It is hard to give a black and white answer to this because every site is configured differently, but no major URL changes are being forced with the 4.0 upgrade at this time. Depending upon how your site is configured though, individual sites may see some URLs changed (for instance, if you have an application other than forums or content as your default application, you might see some URL changes). This is the best I can answer at present, because there are too many individual and unique circumstances to get into specific details right now.

And you know what? We don't even need a release estimate. How about the projection of what's expected post reveal? IPS has said they'll follow something like the following steps for the 4.0 release.

1) Create a separate forum for people to test out 4.0.
2) Release 4.0 to developers and work with them on making plugins.
3) Upgrade the company forums and release a public beta.
4) Release candidate.
5) Official release.

Can't we get some information on how long you expect each step to take. Even knowing if you're planning a week vs a month for public beta testing is beneficial to our planning. Knowing how long a developer gets to play with 4.0 before the public does is also helpful. It helps us make our plans. Again, we don't care about you getting the product out ASAP. We care about getting information to help guide us on how best to invest our time and money.

Unfortunately, the answer to your question is basically no. What if we said we expect release candidates to take 3 days? What if we said we expect them to take 3 months? How can we possibly "expect" release candidates to take any specific period of time? The intention of a release candidate is "we think this is ready for release and would have just released it as final, but are going to throw it out one more time as a non-final release just to be certain no further issues are discovered". The very nature of a release candidate is that you believe it is ready for production, so you can't "expect" it to take any specific period of time.

Asking how long each step is going to take is no different than asking for a release estimate or time frame.

So while I understand the advantages for IPS to operate in Black Ops mode for their development front (i.e. zero "official" timeline accountability), it doesn't bode well for their image and reputation with existing and future clients that try to utilize IPS as a backbone to their business. IPS's clients have clients, and they can't speak accurately as to availability of their own features, which in turns makes them possibly appear inept or otherwise incapable of delivering.

As with most everything else mentioned in this topic, we hear this with every release as well. :) "IPS hasn't given us enough information so they are doomed for sure"

What concerns me is wondering what happens when it's ultimately released for beta testing and we discover something that is best discovered during alpha among a mature test community with different configurations. For example, the URL structures for the forum had to be completely rewritten by some forum owners to correspond to what URLs should have looked like out of the box. Regarding IP.C, there are several issues that are, IMHO, serious reasons why I didn't use it. Many of us don't need release dates. We need to know what the options will be and whether we can still positively affect the development process in a timely fashion to ensure that something important isn't overlooked. I really hope you've guessed right in all major areas.

What you are asking for is an inside footing to help us plan the products. I'm afraid *this* is not something we generally bring in external assistance with, beyond the many areas we already include our community during planning.

This paragraph right here is the reason for all of the indignation. Right there. You see, it's not just a matter of Admins wanting to know when v4 will be released. It's also an understanding that they will not be able to upgrade until all of the 3rd-party mods have been updated, and that takes time. Even if we developers do get access to the software earlier, that doesn't mean our mods will be ready on the day of the release. Some of us have literally hundreds of files.

To those of you who are wondering what to do with your development plans/budget: many of my clients have asked me for my opinion on 4.0, and if I had to guess, when could they upgrade? I have told all of them that they will NOT be upgrading in 2014. It ain't happening.

It's February 16th. There are no alpha releases, there are no early betas, there have been no blog entries with major features posted (unless you count separating components as a feature). This forum has not been updated. Developers have almost zero information other than the knowledge that we will all suffer from heart attacks and ulcers as we try to rewrite EVERY LINE OF CODE before our customers start threatening us with fire and brimstone. So even if the very very first version of 4.0 were made available tomorrow, I don't think it would be ready for release before at least Q3 of this year. And since I will never upgrade anyone on a .0 version.... nope, no one upgrading in 2014.

Just my 2 cents. Of course, I could be completely off base and 4.0 could be release ready next week. Who knows? Feel free to laugh at me en masse if that is the case.

We will be involving our development community and providing very early releases to them well in advance of public beta testing. We also intend to provide chat sessions with IPS development staff to help third party developers get started with 4.0. Don't worry, we are not out to leave any of our development (or skinner) community stranded.

[HeadStand]

We will be involving our development community and providing very early releases to them well in advance of public beta testing. We also intend to provide chat sessions with IPS development staff to help third party developers get started with 4.0. Don't worry, we are not out to leave any of our development (or skinner) community stranded.

Clearly no one understood what I said, so let me clarify. I never said we wouldn't be involved, in fact I said that we WOULD be involved. All I meant was that as of February 16, 2014, we developers do not have any information. I was simply using that as a "proof" that v4 is not going to be released tomorrow or next week, or probably not even next month.

(DISCLAIMER: The remainder of this post is not directed toward bfarber.) I don't think I said anything wrong. I don't think I deserved to see a "dead horse" emoticon or to have people jumping down my throat. I was simply relaying what I've been telling my own clients. Again, nothing wrong here.

But everyone's right. I'm going to just go take some yoga classes and try to achieve zen. That's really going to take my life to the next level.

[Charles]

Yes I can confirm that Contributors will get access to betas before the general public :)

[Clover13]

As with most everything else mentioned in this topic, we hear this with every release as well. :smile: "IPS hasn't given us enough information so they are doomed for sure"

Oh, I don't think IPS is doomed at all, quite the contrary. Whether IPS is maximizing their business potential based on their chosen approach is the part I question :)

Like I said, I understand both sides of the fence, but I'm also a big fan of full disclosure and communication...usually people can respect and appreciate that (even if they don't like it).

[HeadStand]

Yes I can confirm that Contributors will get access to betas before the general public :smile:

Forget yoga. I'm going back to bed.

[Clover13]

I really don't get all this indignation.

Our community operates on 3.3.4 and it serves our community well, and I am hard pressed to understand how that release could not currently serve any client. Certainly, there are new applications that only work with 3.4.x, but the majority of the applications are still 3.3.4 compatible.

For developers who are creating new application-laced boards for communities, 3.4.x is not some unruly, hideous mass. So if you developed something for a client, it could serve them well for several years after 4.0 is released. Good business sense should direct you to note one caveat for all 3.4.x users: that the software will have the following xx month xxxx year end of life, at which point, the software will need to be upgraded. But that notation is something you would provide to all clients whether this was 2009 or 2012.

If you look at my signature block, we use a number of applications. We cannot upgrade to 4.0 until ALL of those applications are upgraded. Then there are the 30+ hooks that we also have enabled. To me, that is the bigger issue, and one that none of us can properly anticipate. It isn't a matter of knowing when 4.0 will be released but a sense of confidence that the application developers will actually decide to redo their application for 4.0

What about skin development? What happens if a skinner decides they don't want to upgrade this or that skin for 4.0? Are you going to communicate to all of your clients that the new IPB version will probably come out in Q3 2014, but then a prudent client should wait another 3 months for the maintenance release of .1 and/or release .2 are available, and then they will have to wait probably another 8 months for most of the applications to be upgraded, and for this or that skin to be released?

I would answer no. I would develop sites for my clients with the existing architecture and fulfill their needs. Those needs would continue to be fulfilled for at least another 12 - 24 months after 4.0 has been released. I cannot even consider a client deciding that they would prefer to wait 18 - 24 months to get what they need when they can get it now.

So it really just boils down to honest communication with a client, explaining that using the IPB Suite of products will involve the following current and future costs. I can understand that specialized applications developed for individual clients will involve a supplementary cost but can you seriously assert that the US $1800 development fee for a given application will cost another US $1800 for 4.0 compliance?

If you are a developer that only works with application development for the marketplace, I would choose to develop for the current release of 3.4 because there will be certain (large?) percentage of communities who will wait to upgrade and you can continue to earn sales with those purchasers.

Lobbing a hundred lightening bolts at IPS and Charles really doesn't make any sense. Either you develop for 3.4..x or you wait and develop for 4.0 but if you choose to wait, that delay could be much longer than just a specified release date.

- Brian

Brian,

IMO, the architecture/technology drives the ability to fulfill the need to a large degree (in terms of your corresponding vision) when you are coupled to the software. Maybe you can and don't mind writing the code to build on the older architecture, and perhaps it will fulfill the need of your clients/users. But the reality is, IPS 3.x is becoming antiquated in terms of UI/UX. In highly competitive site niches, it becomes a matter of offering something not only better but different than your competitors. Granted there are niches that appreciate certain architectures and don't want them changed (Digg vs Reddit, when Reddit became the mainstay), so it all depends on your individual site's goals and users' wants.

For me, I want to advance my site's design and components at some stage, and to a large degree it's just simply not efficient or effective to do in the current architecture.

IPS is a huge value in what it offers for it's corresponding price, the question for me remains as to whether it can do all that I want in the future.

If it can, great. If it can't, then I have to explore other (likely custom) options.

But 3.x out of the box cannot do what I want to do, and there is no working around that via IPS exclusive functionality.

IPS realizes this, they are staying current, they are updating their architecture...but it's not unreasonable for paying clients to want to stay abreast of targeted release timeframes to do their own planning. I could say if you aren't willing to share targeted release timeframes, why share anything, but there is obviously advantages for client's to prepare based on the blogs IPS has posted and get a jump start on understanding the changes that are coming. But there is a point of diminishing value in that respect, playing devil's advocate to the extreme, it is advantageous for anyone to have information provided if the software isn't released for 5 years? Obviously not, it's a lot of wasted time and effort planning for something that is still very distant.

Again, with a lack of communication in that respect, it puts IPS's clients in a questioning and negative space...they have to make business decisions, but they don't have enough information from IPS to make their decision relative to IPS's software and it's availability. So it just pushes them to think about alternatives, which to me, doesn't seem like a good way to ensure customer retention. And even worse, say they invest in developing in 3.x given the lack of communication, spend their budget and then 4.0 gets released with functionality they just spent on an inferior solution. Now you have completely turned off, pissed off, and disappointed your customer and also impacted their business' bottom line and strategy.