Big fat Manage Topic Poll button -- wha?

[crabpaws]

Starting a topic is a fundamental and, we all hope, frequent user task.

But a topic poll -- how frequent is that?? And yet, a big fat Manage Topic Poll button *precedes* the text box in starting a topic, as though starting polls was more common than starting off with some text.

The Manage Topic Poll button is a speedbump in the way of starting a topic. It takes up way too much prime real estate in respect to its importance to the user.

Suggest it be moved *below* the text box, next to the suggested Post Options button (also see ).

[Francismori7_2]

You should make a simple template edit about it, some people require there and some not, that's mainly why.

[Pfeiffer]

Agreed. I also tried suggestion this http://community.inv...icing-features/

I think that template edit to make changes isn't the solution, it should be standard - no one is saying take poll function away from the post form. Those that need a poll or advanced post functions will know where to find them - below everything else.
Making a new post is maybe 90% of the activity. Making a poll is way down and is something that should be below all the main functions.

[crabpaws]

Thanks, Pfeiffer.

A fundamental usability principle is to optimize the interface design for the largest number of users. I guess I'll keep repeating this until I give up on IPB.

If Invision surveyed every installation of IPB that ever was, I would be surprised if even 5% of the topics contained a poll. There is no reason why that big fat Manage Topic Poll button is taking up prime real estate in the start topic task, interrupting the user's concentration and intention.

My solution is going to be to turn off the polls altogether, they're going to be used so rarely -- that's how important it is for me to offer my users an easy way to do extremely common tasks.

An IPB developer can spend 40 minutes making this correction in 3.2, or IPB can force each customer to spend time on work-arounds.

[Michael]

An IPB developer can spend 40 minutes making this correction in 3.2, or IPB can force each customer to spend time on work-arounds.

Having been around this product for years, and seeing not one topic before this one where someone has expressed these views about this button, I doubt that IPS is forcing "each customer" to spend time on work-arounds for this. It would be awesome if they could make software that absolutely everyone could use without having to make custom changes, but that is a pie-in-the-sky scenario.

It's a button, it is taking up probably about 1% of the screen space. This is truly not that big of a deal.

[crabpaws]

Having been around this product for years, and seeing not one topic before this one where someone has expressed these views about this button, I doubt that IPS is forcing "each customer" to spend time on work-arounds for this. It would be awesome if they could make software that absolutely everyone could use without having to make custom changes, but that is a pie-in-the-sky scenario.

It's a button, it is taking up probably about 1% of the screen space. This is truly not that big of a deal.

Please see my comments on good interface design in

Ultimately every element on an interface is just a bunch of electrons and not that important in the grander scheme of things.

[Mat Barrie]

Thanks, Pfeiffer.

A fundamental usability principle is to optimize the interface design for the largest number of users. I guess I'll keep repeating this until I give up on IPB.

If Invision surveyed every installation of IPB that ever was, I would be surprised if even 5% of the topics contained a poll. There is no reason why that big fat Manage Topic Poll button is taking up prime real estate in the start topic task, interrupting the user's concentration and intention.

My solution is going to be to turn off the polls altogether, they're going to be used so rarely -- that's how important it is for me to offer my users an easy way to do extremely common tasks.

An IPB developer can spend 40 minutes making this correction in 3.2, or IPB can force each customer to spend time on work-arounds.

You know, I would agree with you on making it a bit more streamlined if you weren't so damn condescending. Seriously, every post from you smacks of "I know better than you, you should do as I tell you". Haven't you ever heard the saying "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"? Have you ever stopped to re-read a post you make and said to yourself "oh, I should rephrase that, because it makes me sound like a pompous conceited self-righteous git"? You make good suggestions, then throw all that effort down the toilet by prefixing it with "A fundamental usability principle is..." or "This is usability 101..." or "I've been a usability designer since 1999 and..." - seriously. Even your subject line is patronising! Here's how I'd suggest rewording your post:

The new topic page has a rather large "Manage Topic Poll" button, which I think is a bit big considering how often it is used. Can it be moved to a more out of the way spot, perhaps to the area below the post box, where it's less in the way?

[Pfeiffer]

Having been around this product for years, and seeing not one topic before this one where someone has expressed these views about this button, I doubt that IPS is forcing "each customer" to spend time on work-arounds for this. It would be awesome if they could make software that absolutely everyone could use without having to make custom changes, but that is a pie-in-the-sky scenario.

It's a button, it is taking up probably about 1% of the screen space. This is truly not that big of a deal.

I have been around this product for less than two years, and I have seen at least 5 serious posts about this. It seems you also missed the links here to similar posts. And I guess it depends on what kind of target group your community caters for.
In my case, the users are new to forum software like IPB. They get confused with all the options and it sometimes actually stops them from posting. Now this is not a measurable thing - like "who wanted to post but didn't because it felt complicated?". Fortunately, I meet a few of my forum members IRL and they then TELL me things like "what is the poll thing there for... all the buttons and things.. I gave up"

So to sum up what most of the post on this subject have been asking for: Just move the layout around. It doesn't hurt experienced users, they will always find the Poll, Attachments, etc options anyway. So it ends up suiting the majority of people and the majority of uses. Nothing wrong in that.
Then the few minority of cases where someone wants Polls to be a prominent feature, they can do the custom changes.

And whether the OP is condescending or not is a different argument. I still think it is valid point - why is a button for a feature that is used so rarely, the very first thing you see?

[rastaX]

Oh give me a break!

The OP has been making some very valid suggestions.

Michael can come off sounding a little snippy sometimes as well. And yet he is one of the best guys around here.

Take the suggestion or leave it, but spare us the "tone" lectures. :rolleyes:

[crabpaws]

Kyanar, thanks for the style pointers. And thanks to the other posters, too.

Thank you for listening and, to some extent, appreciating what I've been saying.

I've gotten increasingly frustrated about common usability errors on screens to be used universally. vBulletin solved these design issues 9 years ago, and IPB should be standing on vBulletin's shoulders.

It makes me worry that end-user usability is not very high on IPB's priority list and perhaps has never even been considered.

It's obvious IPB developers have given a lot more thought to the usability of the ACP, probably because it's something they personally relate to.

My users are also going to be naive and not very tolerant of usability errors. One of my concerns is how much time I'm going to have to spend supporting them and answering their complaints, as well as how much time I need to spend to "customize" basic user tasks to conform to basic usability that should be there out of the box.

As to how big a deal the Manage Topic Poll button is -- it's a pretty good example of a violation of the "minimize scrolling" principle of interface design, which is still in effect.

[Mat B]

It makes me worry that end-user usability is not very high on IPB's priority list and perhaps has never even been considered.

It's obvious IPB developers have given a lot more thought to the usability of the ACP, probably because it's something they personally relate to.

I would strongly encourage reserving judgement on that - we still haven't posted anything really on the front end to the company blog. You might be pleasantly surprised if you just wait...

[MexiMelt]

Kyanar, thanks for the style pointers. And thanks to the other posters, too.

Thank you for listening and, to some extent, appreciating what I've been saying.

I've gotten increasingly frustrated about common usability errors on screens to be used universally. vBulletin solved these design issues 9 years ago, and IPB should be standing on vBulletin's shoulders.

It makes me worry that end-user usability is not very high on IPB's priority list and perhaps has never even been considered.

It's obvious IPB developers have given a lot more thought to the usability of the ACP, probably because it's something they personally relate to.

My users are also going to be naive and not very tolerant of usability errors. One of my concerns is how much time I'm going to have to spend supporting them and answering their complaints, as well as how much time I need to spend to "customize" basic user tasks to conform to basic usability that should be there out of the box.

As to how big a deal the Manage Topic Poll button is -- it's a pretty good example of a violation of the "minimize scrolling" principle of interface design, which is still in effect.

Many users dislike the vB Admin CP, and many would choice IPB's over it anyday.

Also may I ask if you used the demo before buying the software? It seems that all you do is complain about the product when you didn't do your research before hand. The product is highly customized, you can skin the front end and backend any way you want. It is good feedback you provide but don't be so stuck up about it, be constructive.

I bet the new generation cares more about eye candy than usability. It is the old folks that care more about usability. Give it time...

[crabpaws]

I would strongly encourage reserving judgement on that - we still haven't posted anything really on the front end to the company blog. You might be pleasantly surprised if you just wait...

Thanks, Mat. I am very happy to hear that. For the last few days, I've been wondering if I will stick around to see v. 3.2.

Also may I ask if you used the demo before buying the software? It seems that all you do is complain about the product when you didn't do your research before hand...

I did due diligence among paid and free software mostly in the ACP area, because that is where I would have to spend my time. What I found is all ACPs are difficult but IPB's has the reputation of being a little less difficult. So I expected to have trouble there (but not the near-total absence of documentation about which, by the way, many have complained).

I went with paid instead of free software because I wanted customer support. I went with IPB instead of vBulletin because, as I told my constituents, being second, IPB would try harder.

So much evaluation, so little time. For reasons I now realize were foolish, I assumed the usability of IPB's core end-user functions, like Start Topic and Topic Reply, would be fine out of the box -- these design areas have been around since the beginning of time, it's not rocket science -- and would not require "customization."

I bet the new generation cares more about eye candy than usability. It is the old folks that care more about usability....

That's pretty funny. I bet not. Take a look at your iPhone apps. Ease of use is not happening by accident.

Human factors will be important in interface design until ordinary humans develop telepathy and mind-meld with software engineers to find out what the heck they were thinking.


Perhaps this can help you understand my perspective: The design errors in, for example, the end-user Start Topic and Topic Reply screens -- the core of every forum that ever was -- are, to my eye, like sentences written by someone who's illiterate. This is not what I expect from software I pay for, and I sure didn't expect it from IPB. Bad design engenders a lack of confidence. This is true in every field: clothes, architecture, software interfaces.

Now, MexiMelt, you mentioned IPB's flexibility regarding skins, etc. That sounds like it's important to you. It is almost irrelevant to me. All I want to do is get a very basic forum up and running.

At any rate, I'll bet now that Manage Topic Poll button definitely gets moved in v. 3.2.

[Matt]

For what it's worth, I mentioned the poll button placement to Rikki about 3 months ago and we all agreed it would be better moved back then.

So yes, it will be moved. :)

[bfarber]

And, for what it's worth, I haven't noticed any other topics/feedback on it in this forum to date, so it's clearly not an issue that our customers have found to be largely important to them. It has been in the same place since 3.0, and I've yet to see any real feedback about the placement of the poll button.

That is not to dismiss your feedback at all (as Matt said, we noted the same thing recently), it's just to point out that while this may seem a "glaring design issue" to you, it doesn't seem to be to anyone else.

[rastaX]

And, for what it's worth, I haven't noticed any other topics/feedback on it in this forum to date, so it's clearly not an issue that our customers have found to be largely important to them. It has been in the same place since 3.0, and I've yet to see any real feedback about the placement of the poll button.

That is not to dismiss your feedback at all (as Matt said, we noted the same thing recently), it's just to point out that while this may seem a "glaring design issue" to you, it doesn't seem to be to anyone else.

I think that's the value of feedback like crabpaws been doing lately. It's not a big deal at all. But it is a quality issue. I never really thought too much about much of what the op has been bringing up in several threads, but you know what? After reading them I kinda went, "Oh, yeah. That could be better."

You add up all the little things and they make a difference.

Having used this product for 7 years or so, it is easy to overlook the small stuff. Maybe some people see it as over-critical, but at what point do you stop trying to make a product perfect?

Then again I am incredibly anal sometimes, so this stuff is my cup of tea. :P

[Rikki]

We had already planned to revamp the posting screen. Note that although the button appeared in 3.0, that has been the location of the 'add poll' feature since 1.x. It's a legacy thing. We can't revamp every area of such a large project on a whim - things take time. We certainly value feedback, but ask you do so respectfully without driving a wedge between us doing our job, and you, giving us feedback :) We're all trying to make things better together.

I agree, it doesn't matter if it's something people often bring up if it helps usability to improve it anyway. And I certainly disagree with MexiMelt that usability is only for old people.

[crabpaws]

If you read my original post, you will find that it is not disrespectful or, for that matter, particularly haughty.

Thanks for your post, Rikki. I am reassured Invision is interested in good interface design. Good to hear plans for the 3.2 update included redesign of a legacy screen.

I know IPB engineers are dedicated and perhaps brilliant. Some may be more inclined to front-end design than others. This is true in every software company. In the rush and excitement of inventing new features, fundamentals like "minimize scrolling, clicks, and page refreshes" sometimes get overlooked.

As for seeing posts on these forums about end-user usability -- end users aren't IPB's customers, admins are. We are the ones who have to deal with end-user usability problems.

Invision doesn't get feedback about the end-user experience unless one of us customers, like Pfeiffer, takes on the role of user advocate. It's easy to overlook this feedback in the large, enthusiastic crowd of developers in these forums, who have their own interests in new features.

The need for end-user ease of use is there -- how many millions of ordinary people post on forums? -- but Invision is insulated from hearing about it, unless a customer sticks his or her neck out to make a point.



Hey, MexiMelt, here's some usability for you. There are 23 free iTune downloads on this page http://lstn.urbanoutfitters.com/13/. Let me know if you need the key code.

[bfarber]

As for seeing posts on these forums about end-user usability -- end users aren't IPB's customers, admins are. We are the ones who have to deal with end-user usability problems.

Invision doesn't get feedback about the end-user experience unless one of us customers, like Pfeiffer, takes on the role of user advocate. It's easy to overlook this feedback in the large, enthusiastic crowd of developers in these forums, who have their own interests in new features.

The need for end-user ease of use is there -- how many millions of ordinary people post on forums? -- but Invision is insulated from hearing about it, unless a customer sticks his or her neck out to make a point.

I would just like to note that while we have someone on staff dedicated to developing the interface (and that position includes usability), we do rely on feedback to direct us when our customers think the direction we take isn't the best way. It's a partnership in that respect.

We care very much about ease-of-use, and some of the ACP updates performed are dedicated to aiding this cause alone. Rikki is working on front-end changes that do the same on the front end, we just haven't blogged about them yet. We always care about the impression our product makes upon admins and users alike, as it's of course an important selling point. :)

[crabpaws]

Thank you, bfarber. If I should make suggestions about interface design, it is in the spirit of cooperation to make the product better. :yes:

I would never have thought any of these suggestions would cause such a furor, especially one about this darned button!

[Pfeiffer]

And, for what it's worth, I haven't noticed any other topics/feedback on it in this forum to date, so it's clearly not an issue that our customers have found to be largely important to them. It has been in the same place since 3.0, and I've yet to see any real feedback about the placement of the poll button.

That is not to dismiss your feedback at all (as Matt said, we noted the same thing recently), it's just to point out that while this may seem a "glaring design issue" to you, it doesn't seem to be to anyone else.

I would like to point out that, whilst it was not specifically about the Manage Topic Poll button alone, I and others have commented about the layout of the post/reply form and requested a more intuitive post/reply form. And I did find other topics like the OPs on the subject before I made my posts. So I will say that a few customers have found this largely important to them.

Also, as crabpaws writes, I would also agree that a lot of the people here are Admins. I feel a lot of the responses I have made and read regarding interface and usablility, do get a lot of responses in the line of "just edit it yourself", "skin it out", etc. In my opinion, just because there are a lot of very technical Admins with experience in skinning etc. telling me that the interface is fine, doesn't necessarily reflect on what a lot end-users feel.

And as mentioned before, making the interface easier to use, doesn't spoil anything for the versed user or Admin. They know where to find Poll, Post options, etc. So why they should be against moving a button to the bottom, when it used so rarely, is really a mystery to me. Just because you are used to doing/seeing something for years in one way, doesn't mean that someone can't give you feedback on what they think is an easier way to do it.

And correct, we are giving feedback because we are happy, use and care about the products. Otherwise we would just drop it and move on. And my short relationship with IPS has shown me, that they are a company that listens and responds very well to customer feedback. Please keep it up.