Bluto Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 @Chris Bell if you're doing a lot of volume with messenger have you considered moving to support tickets? Nexus / Commerce Support is nice and it might solve your issue and allow you to fine tune what people are contacting you about. This won't solve your interface issues you have with messenger, but Support might provide you with a better way to manage volume.
Chris Bell Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 @Bluto thank you Bluto, i didn't know about that, our customers don't normally open a ticket on our site; we have a reputable publisher who manages technical tickets on their front, i strongly believe in making our group accessible to all our customers directly through our site; when they do come with an issue they need help with; they will usually open a thread or send a PM to one of the team members, many folks simply don't search or search isn't yielding what they are looking for, more often then not they will PM one of us directly; 9 out of 10 will be a repetitive question the answer already given before, now... i just need to find it in my inbox; make few adjustments and send, thats where my issue starts every day i have to do this, Same goes on our publishers site as well as other sites we manage support through, they all use IPS4 now! i have to sift through endless messages through that tiny window, while search isn't really working in inbox; the only viable option left is to start going one by one and expand each PM to find the one im looking for, in the older interface i almost never used search to find messages, the page was normal full page, worst case scenario i browsed through 2-3 inbox pages where i suspect it may be; i had my individual pages at the bottom i could jump right into; and find it without actually using search, i could find my messages with only scanning the page with my eyes very quickly! Association to find isn’t always a single word! It can be a member name, a page number I was on, or just a date range, or a combination, you can’t really do these intuitively now in this window, and that’s productivity lost for no good reason i can think of, (eye candy?)
Aiwa Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 @Chris Bell Nexus / Commerce has an awesome feature that sounds like it would benefit you here... Stock Replies. You have a canned reply already pre-made.. Just select it from a list, tweak it a bit if needed, and send. I'm sure something like that could be added as a mod to the PM system also.
Chris Bell Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 Thank you Aiwa (and Bluto) it does desperately sound like what Ive been missing all along in IPS4! we do own the complete suit; can that be integrated with inbox?
Aiwa Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, Chris Bell said: Thank you Aiwa (and Bluto) it does desperately sound like what Ive been missing all along in IPS4! we do own the complete suit; can that be integrated with inbox? Entirely possible. Stock replies are just stored in a DB table. It's as simple as getting the data out of the table, putting it in a drop down, and some javascript to populate the editor with the message that's selected. That may be an oversimplification, but it's do-able.
Chris Bell Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 that does sound a viable solution for my own sites, once i interact with external IPS's (and we all do!) its right back to the same loop! by now i am keeping templates in my outlook draft folder; its not about the response template per say, its the general feel of inbox now; it feels like our wings were clipped when you cant perform these basic daily chores intuitively; one has to resort to alternate solution's when it was the norm all along, modeling IPS inbox based on a social network inbox!? im sorry... but i'm about to be totally blunt (no offense please); who made Facebook an authority on handling emails or managing emails to be modeled after? seriously who's idea was that? this has nothing to do with productivity its a clear popularity choice when CMS is a productivity tool by nature! this is POOR judgment imo! choose any real reputable mail service provider to model inbox after and we wouldn't be in this predicament!
Chris Bell Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 On 6/26/2016 at 9:29 PM, Lindy said: it's about modern expectations. The messenger is modeled after other... Messengers, similar to Facebook. We're not aiming to be consistent with forums from 10yrs ago (including our own software from 10yrs ago), we're trying to create a (relatively) consistent experience between what users are used to today. Have you considered that Facebook interest is not to encourage their users to use private communications like PM or emails… rather use the public wall? they intentionally clip their inbox capability to drive people to post in public as much as possible! Granted Facebook has an obvious interest to clip its inbox wings; while IPS4 doesn’t! We’re left with clipped wings inbox for no reason! how is that the right inbox model for a forum?
opentype Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, Chris Bell said: Have you considered that Facebook interest is not to encourage their users to use private communications like PM or emails… rather use the public wall? I can consider it. Let me think … Okay, I considered it and just headed over to my Facebook inbox to look for signs for you claim. But no. It’s really a ridiculous idea. Sorry.
Aiwa Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Not everyone works the same way. That's evident. But when there are common mediums that people use, Facebook was used as just one example, making a messenger match as many of those other mediums as possible simplifies the user experience by making it more intuitive.
Chris Bell Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 @opentype i have my reasons (and its not what you think Lindy ); i don't use Facebook personally, i am unsure if this is the exact model IPS chosen; i think Lindy was speaking in general terms there, either way i don't know how Facebook inbox looks like; im not sure which inbox model IPS4 is actually based on, regardless of which applications its modeled after; in comparison to previous inbox i find it almost useless for anything beyond browsing recent PM's, we're entitled to have different opinions; i wouldn't call your opinion ridicules because its different then mine! @Aiwa i get it! i don't think one contradicts the other, one can design the feel around something to mimic another; we all do it everyday, not on the expenses of existing functionality though,
opentype Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Chris Bell said: we're entitled to have different opinions; i wouldn't call your opinion ridicules because its different then mine! And you are suggesting I do that? That’s of course not true. I don’t even have a horse in this race. I haven’t built the current inbox and somehow need to defend it. I am not clinging to its currently layout for some reason and attack everyone who wants it differently. I wouldn’t even care that much if the inbox would work exactly like you asked it to be. So please don’t try to suggest I would call your opinion ridiculous because it’s different than mind. I did not do that. Not at all. But what I did and will continue to do is judge specific arguments which were and are laid out. And the argument Facebook has built its messaging inbox so that people should rather not use it, IS ridiculous. It makes no sense and is completely unsubstantiated. And you didn’t even base the argument on your experience, since you don’t even use Facebook. You really just make this stuff up as you go. And that won’t work. There will be pesky skeptics like me, who call out the flaws or incorrectness of such arguments.
Chris Bell Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 @opentype once again you're entitled to your opinion; i appreciated any feedback on this matter as my aim is to improve all of our experience as a whole (not just my personal), i don't think i speak out of my ass http://www.joesdata.com/executive/Chris_Bell_789222880.html just because you cannot spot the difference doesn't again imply that my observation is wrong! especially after the long and through research you've conducted on the subject (do you really expect Facebook to highlight or be obvious about this? seriously?) no offense... this may seem bit personal, because it is! i've seen you around; i see your post count, your obviously someone who spend time here on IPS; and not from yesterday! with that said i don't feel you are the right "user profile" to comment on this particular subject, my point of view as a community admin/manager is slightly different than end user or a web designer, ( i could be wrong! from my impressions that is what i believe your trade is), i would take an active admin who runs a production community that is similar to my situation; with bit more weight in this particular case! unfortunately most of us don't have as much time or leisure to hang on other communities; while we manage ours and run a full day time job!
opentype Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Chris Bell said: just because you cannot spot the difference doesn't again imply that my observation is wrong! Logically correct. But unfortunately, you are using a straw man argument once more. You put words and intentions in other people’s mouths and then refute them to make it look like their positions have flaws, which might never have been there to begin with. Your “observation“ isn’t wrong because “I claimed I couldn’t see it”. It’s wrong because: a) it isn’t an “observation” at all. It’s a claim you made up on the spot, as it was pointed out to you that sites like Facebook use that layout you dislike. You haven’t described any observations about Facebook’s inbox and therefore haven’t made a point at all. Instead you completely ignored the actual observations. You started this topic with claims like that the inbox would somehow be a mobile-only layout and it was shown to you that this is untrue. You claimed that “No inbox in the world operates out of the left side window” and once again, it was shown to you that this is untrue. But those things don’t sink in. You just stick to your original position despite the facts that were presented to you and not surprisingly your own arguments get more and more ridiculous and desperate as you go on like this. b) your argument (that’s the word I actually used) is wrong, because it is unreasonable to begin with and – so far – completely unsubstantiated. I won’t bother argue against it in detail. It was your claim to make your point. The burden of proof is on you and if you present arguments for it, we can then check how valid they appear. Quote i would take an active admin who runs a production community that is similar to my situation; with bit more weight in this particular case! No. That’s the logical fallacy “argument from authority”. If you present good arguments, I am happy to accept them without any titles. If you present poor arguments, I will of course not give them any more weight because of your title, supposed experience or whatever. Out of curiosity: what’s the biggest IPS site you run? The one you keep showing in the screenshots seems to be comparatively small. Quote unfortunately most of us don't have as much time or leisure to hang on other communities; while we manage ours and run a full day time job! And there is the lowest form of all your logical fallacies: the ad hominem attack. Come on, you are better than that!
Chris Bell Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 i managed sites ranging from my current private complimentary forums and shop starting from a single user (its still new and relatively small); to well over 700 million users! i interact with good 50% IPS based environment during my days (v3&4); i manage my customers through external communities as well, the biggest of them has over 1/4 million registered users! and thank GOD they didn't migrate to 4! we are getting side tracked here, i suggest we take a step back and stay on point, Inbox! current inbox layout/design/model anyway one wants to refer to it; in my eyes its wrong and crippled compared to v3! the reasoning behind it is its modeled after popular messenger used today in social media; doesn't hold a candle as a solution in my opinion, the design maybe streamlined to mimic a popular site inbox; i still claim it is the wrong model for IPS CMS,
Chris Bell Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 i managed sites ranging from my current private complimentary forums and shop starting from a single user (its still new and relatively small); to well over 700 million users! i interact with good 50% IPS based environment during my days (v3&4); i manage my customers through external communities as well, the biggest of them has over 1/4 million registered users! and thank GOD they didn't migrate to 4! we are getting side tracked here, i suggest we take a step back and stay on point, Inbox! current inbox layout/design/model anyway one wants to refer to it; in my eyes its wrong and crippled compared to v3! the reasoning behind it is its modeled after popular messenger used today in social media; doesn't hold a candle as a solution in my opinion, the design maybe streamlined to mimic a popular site inbox; i still claim it is the wrong model for IPS CMS Inbox, compare really... you don't see a difference oriented towards public posting when compared to the two above? we went from this in v3 to this, what are you defending here? popularity & technically speaking... each and everyone of Facebook members has a normal gmail/yahoo etc.. inbox prior to registering on Facebook! To further illustrate my specific predicament; let’s say I have 1000 users, They come to my site when they need specific support, each send me one pm, The end user has a nice window with one message; and so are all the other 1000! I have the same small window with all their 1000 messages to sift through,
Sai5i Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 I read quite a bit of posts in this thread and I wonder how difficult it is to just add a simple Toggle on top which let you choose the view like email software.. It could be 2 view options.. (1) sidebar list view. (2) list on top, message in bottom view.. or a third option like ipb v3 can be added as well.. full page list view and message on new page. Or make a responsive view like 100% list when no message is selected.. but once you select a message, it dynamically move list to 3 columns and selected message open in remaining 9 columns (if it's 12 column setup).. I'm sure i have seen something like this but i don't remember where.. Either change should make everyone happy.. And when you're making improvements based on each user feedback, you should consider minority as well. I don't receive large quantity of PM's on my forum, so it won't be an issue for me. But i can certainly see it if i had to manage 100 messages daily in a 3 column view..
opentype Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 On 30. Juni 2016 at 9:07 AM, Chris Bell said: i managed sites ranging from my current private complimentary forums and shop starting from a single user (its still new and relatively small); to well over 700 million users! i interact with good 50% IPS based environment during my days (v3&4); i manage my customers through external communities as well, the biggest of them has over 1/4 million registered users! and thank GOD they didn't migrate to 4! I was just curious to check out a specific IPB board you run currently. So I was asking for a URL. I was not asking you to throw big numbers around, since I already explained that arguments from authority don’t impress me at all. But never mind. It wasn’t important. We can skip that. On 30. Juni 2016 at 9:07 AM, Chris Bell said: really... you don't see a difference oriented towards public posting when compared to the two above? No. Not at all. Try some words to make your point. A screenshot isn’t enough in this case. Asking me questions about your point also doesn’t help. On 30. Juni 2016 at 9:07 AM, Chris Bell said: to this, what are you defending here? I don’t do that I made that very clear already. I don’t defend the current inbox, I refute poor or false arguments against it. That’s all. If you have good and realistic ideas about improving the inbox I am all for it and would happily support it.
Chris Bell Posted July 2, 2016 Author Posted July 2, 2016 @opentype my apologies for missed reading your question there, if the visual comparison isn't enough for you to see the difference between a mail client and a messenger; i don't know what words i can use to illustrate the diffract between a messenger and an email inbox!? (please lets not go into that here; i am happy to discuss this privately if you are interested!) @Sai5i Thank you for taking the time to go through this long rant i've suggested similar approach as you have outlined; i received a no go as this is considered an old concept/design base reasoning (flimsy imo); the good old multitask real estate or the new "modern messenger theme" should be selectable feature based on ones needs, in my eyes as you see it; its the right approach and not that technically complicated! an end user may find the messenger feel fun and sufficient; at the same time you cannot ignore that this isn't the most comfortable area to manage volume email or encourage communications, Atari and myself both suggested an adjustable vertical divider, anything to be able to mange emails efficiently outside of this restricted view,
donrocks Posted July 2, 2016 Posted July 2, 2016 Since folks are discussing the Inbox, and I'm somewhat new to this forum, I'll go ahead and ask this here: If I want a list of all messages to/from a certain user, dating back for many years, how do I generate that list? I have 20,000 PMs in my inbox, and deleted another 20,000 before that, and I don't see an easy way to do this - any help would be much appreciated (I actually have numerous questions, but if this one can be answered, that will go a long way in terms of me figuring out the others on my own). Much obliged, Rocks
Chris Bell Posted July 2, 2016 Author Posted July 2, 2016 unfortunately you cant! but you should be happy; we have a Facebook like messenger for inbox in 4
Chris Bell Posted July 3, 2016 Author Posted July 3, 2016 @Lindy IPS has a dedicated messenger module! imo... it makes more sense integrating this functionality there, instead of overhauling inbox with inadequate application model!
Aiwa Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, Chris Bell said: @Lindy IPS has a dedicated messenger module! imo... it makes more sense integrating this functionality there, instead of overhauling inbox with inadequate application model! See that dead horse you're still kicking? You've made your point, you don't like the messenger... And you've offered solutions... Be like Elsa, Let it Go...
Chris Bell Posted July 3, 2016 Author Posted July 3, 2016 who decided its dead... you? roflmao palease... if i was the type who lets things go this easily you wouldn't be here today arguing social networking to start with! don't make it sound like its a personal preference please, imo this is a fundamental flaw i bring attention to, i believe there are many out there confronting the same issue; just not here atm to voice their opinion, if you don't like my opinion or my point of view; no one is forcing you to stay on this topic!
opentype Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 On 2. Juli 2016 at 0:33 PM, Chris Bell said: i don't know what words i can use to illustrate the diffract between a messenger and an email inbox!? That wasn’t the argument you originally used and in turn not the argument I answered to. So just another straw man. 3 hours ago, Chris Bell said: who decided its dead... you? The CEO of the software company himself said there “nothing to do here”. Sound’s like a pretty dead horse to me.
Chris Bell Posted July 3, 2016 Author Posted July 3, 2016 what are you suggesting; that Lindy doesn't care? he explained their decision selecting the model they modeled after; that doesn't imply he is set in his ways or mind! he advised they are making some changes that may improve the situation; as well as asked for suggestions for improvements, yes i am harping on this topic; i have no intention of letting go anytime soon, if needed i will contact other site owners and ask them to chime in as well, instead of getting frustrated every day, other advanced elements can take a back seat while basic daily necessity is properly resolved first, i intend to do everything in my power to overturn this or see that a proper solution is provided once and for all, did you ever hear the sentence "The squeaky wheel gets the greased"?Squeak, Squeak , Squeak!
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