Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 I think it is going to be useful to see IPB4 in a full forum environment on a wider scale than this board. I'm reserving judgement on whether the gamble IPB seem to be taking will pay off or not, but I'm confident once people get used to the new features/way of presenting information, we'll be having the same conversations when IPB5 comes along! We had this conversion for 2, 3, 4, and I am sure we will for 5 as well One person's "removed" is another person's "changed" or "irrelevant"... and sometimes it's "whoops we forgot about that." Yes there have been many things we just forgot to put in until someone brought it up. Other things we removed thinking no one really used them only to have someone point out a really good use case. So do post those topics. I have seen countless topics where someone posted about something being "removed" only to find out it's still there just in a different form. There is no magic, master list of what has been "removed" as so much is different. This is why I am asking for specifics. We can then ask questions, get information, decide if it's needed, still there, or whatever else we may need to consider.
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 no friends system anymore? Why not? There have been a few other topics about this If you are only just now noticing Friends is gone it's clearly not that important to you Friends system was replaced with a Follow system.
SJ77 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 There have been a few other topics about this If you are only just now noticing Friends is gone it's clearly not that important to you Friends system was replaced with a Follow system. I don't think that is a fair assessment. I haven't used IP4.0 yet on my site. It's not been noticed for this reason. You could safely say I haven't been trying to add friends here on the invision community. However, it is very important on my site. While I appreciate the reply, I don't find the insight useful, may I instead have an answer to the question? Or a link to where the logic behind removing the friend system is being discussed? Thanks :)
CheersnGears Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 There have been a few other topics about this If you are only just now noticing Friends is gone it's clearly not that important to you Friends system was replaced with a Follow system. Gosh that is the entirely wrong stance to take. What if she hasn't played with any of the betas yet? We're not all on the same schedule you know.
esquire Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Nothing was "removed" in 4.0 specifically from 3.x. Things were added, changed, modified, etc. but nothing was removed just for the fun of it. During our initial preview stages a lot of things were added in 4.0 that we either forgot about or were things we thought were no longer needed but it turns out were needed. If you see something specific missing in 4.0 that you have a use for please start a topic with information on how you use a feature. Often we are happy to add something if it is used in a way we did not realize at the time we implemented features. A make-a-list topic like this is easily overlooked From my 5 minute review: - Post Numbering (now none, no choice) - Best Answer by Post (now by forum only, totally incompatible with prior iterations) - Thread/Topic Title length (now none - supposedly cured by "responsive design" - would love more explanation) - Request/Acceptance requirement for Friends (now none - Friends replaced by Stalkers Followers) - Members landing page (dedicated, now none, admitted some workarounds) - Prune/Mass Move (none) - IP.C >> IPS 4 Pages (and blocks, templates, custom fields... where are we? -> Will you every be able to get full IP.C functionality in Pages?) - Editing the quote field (exactly how does one do this conspicuously to break it up into two parts, addressing each in replies) Missing/Inability: The ability to install modules anywhere else but the subdirectory of the install. (why?) This just a very short list from my minimal review and I see others have added more. I've been a very big fan of you guys for a long time. But I come here and there is so much indecipherable as well. I honestly don't even know how to use the "blogs" module as a user and that is supposedly finished. I couldn't even find the blogs I was looking for that had short lists of what I read. I'll give you complete credit for honesty, Charles. What you're telling us is that the team decided to remove, change, modify or otherwise make "no longer available in IPS4" a bunch of items that were in IPB 3. And now you're asking users to justify why it should be added back in assuming it even can at this very late date?
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 We are not asking people to "justify" anything: we are asking people to explain a use case so we know the difference between knee-jerk reaction of "different = bad" and honest problems we need to address. I am sure you can agree that people have the tendency to instantly react to change. So that is why we ask for topics about specific things so we can understand the reasoning and implement any changes that make sense for everyone's benefit.Feel free to start feedback topics about specific features. Thanks!
SJ77 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I like the idea of followers. I am not sure why "friends" and "followers" can't coexist. Does it just seem like too much of an overlap conceptually? Facebook has both, they are number 1 for planet earth, seems like reasonably good evidence that both things can exist at once.Also many forum suites don't have Post Numbering listed in post. What is the argument for needing this? I am interested in hearing it.
SJ77 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Feel free to start feedback topics about specific features. Thanks!I did that once and my thread got locked.. by you no less. You know it's true! Sorry, but I have to point that out. So can my thread finally be unlocked?
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 I like the idea of followers. I am not sure why "friends" and "followers" can't coexist. Does it just seem like too much of an overlap conceptually? Facebook has both, they are number 1 for planet earth, seems like reasonably good evidence that both things can exist at once.Also many forum suites don't have Post Numbering listed in post. What is the argument for needing this? I am interested in hearing it. Yes the can coexist. Here is the short version:Friend system in 3.x was pointless. It didn't really do much of anything but show a list of people.In a community system like ours content-discovery is important so being able to Follow someone you are interested in to be notified of what they're up to is way more useful.We have plans for a "friends" system in 4.1 that is actually useful and does some cool stuff very different from the Follow system.Going back to point #2: really a Follow system makes the most sense for the majority of our clients. It allows for content discovery which is important to most any community. A Friends system is more niche but we think we have come up with some interesting ideas for that in a future version.
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 I did that once and my thread got locked.. by you no less. You know it's true! Sorry, but I have to point that out. So can my thread finally be unlocked? Your old topic was locked because it had gone way off the rails ... hope that doesn't happen to this one
SJ77 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Yes the can coexist. Here is the short version:Friend system in 3.x was pointless. It didn't really do much of anything but show a list of people.In a community system like ours content-discovery is important so being able to Follow someone you are interested in to be notified of what they're up to is way more useful.We have plans for a "friends" system in 4.1 that is actually useful and does some cool stuff very different from the Follow system.Going back to point #2: really a Follow system makes the most sense for the majority of our clients. It allows for content discovery which is important to most any community. A Friends system is more niche but we think we have come up with some interesting ideas for that in a future version.I can't object. I am excited about these features. Thank you for the explanation.
Izaya Orihara Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I like the idea of followers. I am not sure why "friends" and "followers" can't coexist. Does it just seem like too much of an overlap conceptually? Facebook has both, they are number 1 for planet earth, seems like reasonably good evidence that both things can exist at once. IPB is not the only software with a follower system. So this is nothing really new in the forum world.The friends concept on IPB 3.X really is basic. Like I have friends on my own forum but they just sit there on my page showing I have X amount of friends. It doesn't actually do anything(that I am aware of). The followers thing is a better evolution.You still have the general concept of 3.X with more features...is it possible to rename followers to friends and "follow member" to "add member"? Facebook added followers due to the cap they have on how many friends you can have....especially for high profile users.
Exocet Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I don't think that is a fair assessment. I haven't used IP4.0 yet on my site. It's not been noticed for this reason. You could safely say I haven't been trying to add friends here on the invision community. However, it is very important on my site. While I appreciate the reply, I don't find the insight useful, may I instead have an answer to the question? Or a link to where the logic behind removing the friend system is being discussed? Thanks :)I've followed you to try the feature out. Hope that's okay.
esquire Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 There have been a few other topics about this If you are only just now noticing Friends is gone it's clearly not that important to you Friends system was replaced with a Follow system. Or perhaps many had plans for it hoping IPS4 would be IPS3+. But IPS never developed this concept to its full potential and now, like IP.C, IPS 4 seems designed to only be a very limited subset to what it was and should be, just like IP.C is now some limited thing called Pages. And there is no way most of your users could tell the difference between the two, probably believing that "followers" was just a superficial renaming of Friends. Again, it's why your stalker system is not a Friends "improvement" - it's totally different and a limited subset. We are not asking people to "justify" anything: we are asking people to explain a use case so we know the difference between knee-jerk reaction of "different = bad" and honest problems we need to address. I am sure you can agree that people have the tendency to instantly react to change. So that is why we ask for topics about specific things so we can understand the reasoning and implement any changes that make sense for everyone's benefit. Feel free to start feedback topics about specific features. Thanks! This makes no sense to me. You're asking for topics for specific things so that you can understand the repercussions of what might happen if you remove/modify/change something after you've already made the changes? Don't you do that BEFORE you change things? Knee jerk is making the changes you've made and then asking for confirmation whether you actually got it right!! These issues aren't whining about a reaction to change for the sake of change - some of these (like Best Answer) reflect significant departures from prior usage! I don't understand how you expected a user forum to be all X or all Y or even how to import legacy data into this new system and force it in.
SJ77 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I've followed you to try the feature out. Hope that's okay. NO NO NO .... just kidding. I am glad to help
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 Or perhaps many had plans for it hoping IPS4 would be IPS3+. But IPS never developed this concept to its full potential and now, like IP.C, IPS 4 seems designed to only be a very limited subset to what it was and should be, just like IP.C is now some limited thing called Pages. And there is no way most of your users could tell the difference between the two, probably believing that "followers" was just a superficial renaming of Friends. Again, it's why your stalker system is not a Friends "improvement" - it's totally different and a limited subset. This makes no sense to me. You're asking for topics for specific things so that you can understand the repercussions of what might happen if you remove/modify/change something after you've already made the changes? Don't you do that BEFORE you change things? Knee jerk is making the changes you've made and then asking for confirmation whether you actually got it right!! These issues aren't whining about a reaction to change for the sake of change - some of these (like Best Answer) reflect significant departures from prior usage! I don't understand how you expected a user forum to be all X or all Y or even how to import legacy data into this new system and force it in. Of course we ask about things before doing them. Everything in 4.0 was the result of reading years of feedback. It wasn't made in a vacuum. I understand it might not make sense to you but it works really well in real life practice. If there is something in 4.0 missing/you don't like/causes you great grief/etc. then just start a topic. Explain very simply and to the point what's up. Others will chime in if they agree or disagree. This is how it has always works and it works well for us I look forward to your specific topics. Thanks!
CheersnGears Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Yes the can coexist. Here is the short version:Friend system in 3.x was pointless. It didn't really do much of anything but show a list of people.In a community system like ours content-discovery is important so being able to Follow someone you are interested in to be notified of what they're up to is way more useful.We have plans for a "friends" system in 4.1 that is actually useful and does some cool stuff very different from the Follow system.Going back to point #2: really a Follow system makes the most sense for the majority of our clients. It allows for content discovery which is important to most any community. A Friends system is more niche but we think we have come up with some interesting ideas for that in a future version.But that means that some of us will be waiting till 4.1 before we can upgrade because the follows system, as is, is currently bad for business (annoying visitors is bad for business) and yet we don't want have our legacy friends lists wiped out.
ChicaSkas Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 One person's "removed" is another person's "changed" or "irrelevant"... and sometimes it's "whoops we forgot about that." Yes there have been many things we just forgot to put in until someone brought it up. Other things we removed thinking no one really used them only to have someone point out a really good use case. So do post those topics. Hello sir, sorry for being so reactionary in my first post... I will be compiling a full list of vital features I used in my day to day work on the version 3 system that I would deeply love to see returned on version 4.
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 Hello sir, sorry for being so reactionary in my first post... I will be compiling a full list of vital features I used in my day to day work on the version 3 system that I would deeply love to see returned on version 4. You may find that it's still there in a different form or we may say "oh you're right we do need that." So please do
ChicaSkas Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I like the idea of followers. I am not sure why "friends" and "followers" can't coexist. Does it just seem like too much of an overlap conceptually? Facebook has both, they are number 1 for planet earth, seems like reasonably good evidence that both things can exist at once.Also many forum suites don't have Post Numbering listed in post. What is the argument for needing this? I am interested in hearing it. I'll give you one right now, I'm a media archivist in my forum, and each post represents a different set of content. Having the posts numbered GREATLY helps to keep track of what has and hasn't been downloaded, through an easily to remember visual check of the post number.
ChicaSkas Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Friend system in 3.x was pointless. It didn't really do much of anything but show a list of people. In a community system like ours content-discovery is important so being able to Follow someone you are interested in to be notified of what they're up to is way more useful. We have plans for a "friends" system in 4.1 that is actually useful and does some cool stuff very different from the Follow system. Reponse to point 1. Not pointless. There are over 22,000 active members on our forum, and my handpicked selections of people and usernames kept my contacts at a glance like an address book in alphabetical order. Now that my admin has removed them before I had the chance to write them all down, I am sh*t out of luck, as they say, and am forced to go by memory of approximately 200+ contacts I needed for my work. Response to point 2. I may decide to befriend a contact to be able to find them again when I need to contact them, but I don't need to see a daily update of everything they did. There absolutely should be a Friends list and Follow Selected Friends' Activities option when you are dealing with a site with many members. Response to point 3. No offense at all to you intended, but sometimes it's best not to try to reinvent the wheel and keep it simple. As a user and a moderator, I can sure use a list of people I want to have a connection with in some way, and if I want to follow the content of some of them, I should be able to choose whose content I want to follow. There should be a separate page where I can see all their feeds if I feel so inclined. I guess, you would have to define "useful" a little more, haha!
Management Charles Posted March 1, 2015 Management Posted March 1, 2015 In regards to point 1: Your admin has a choice on upgrade to keep friends (turning them into followers) or not. So that was something they chose.Point 2 and 3... be it friends or followers really neither is designed to be a contact list. So you are using a feature in an unintended way, which is great, but it's also something we cannot always predict.
ChicaSkas Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 In regards to point 1: Your admin has a choice on upgrade to keep friends (turning them into followers) or not. So that was something they chose.Point 2 and 3... be it friends or followers really neither is designed to be a contact list. So you are using a feature in an unintended way, which is great, but it's also something we cannot always predict.Maybe you should create a Contacts feature that people could use as a way to keep an address book of sorts.
ChicaSkas Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 In regards to point 1: Your admin has a choice on upgrade to keep friends (turning them into followers) or not. So that was something they chose. now that we are on Version 4, can that action he chose be undone or is it completely permanent?Is there a way the Version 3 of a site could still be viewed to see one's friends' list?
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