Designers Mode concerns

[DesignzShop]

@ csm sorry did i miss this bit 

I don't think anyone has worked with IPB more than me on this particular subject. Every single beta this was reported in by myself  As far as I knew they got the last issue with logo transfer corrected when I reported it so that should be a wrap on that? This bug alone has caused and has been the major show stopper every time because without it you need to re-create every theme in the next version. 

sorry i must been very confused there i believe your statement little wrong i have been providing many bug reports of the DM,

​My comment wasn't meant in the context you're taking it Pete. Everyone's been reporting this bug I understand

[Tom Christian]

​Tom the big issue is that the DM is not working on a live server for most of the designers, and the main ideal is for the code to work for everyone.

If power users can't get it to work on a live site then how is the every day user going to. Using a localhost is good to start theme designs as I do

but then being able to refine the code for live use you have to have the full DM working or an alternative mode.

​I understand but if people want to starting theming but can't because of the issues, why not try locally? If neither work, then regrettably nothing can be done at the moment.

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

​I understand but if people want to starting theming but can't because of the issues, why not try locally? If neither work, then regrettably nothing can be done at the moment.

​Tom I have been working locally and have four themes waiting, but I have found a bug in the manual mode which is my preferred method to design that has

my work stopped because it is a code error that is stripping bits that break fonts from displaying properly when editing themes. And that is very important

as that will the preferred way for normal users to edit their themes.

[Tom Christian]

​Tom I have been working locally and have four themes waiting, but I have found a bug in the manual mode which is my preferred method to design that has

my work stopped because it is a code error that is stripping bits that break fonts from displaying properly when editing themes. And that is very important

as that will the preferred way for normal users to edit their themes.

​I'm talking broadly here, not directly at you. I know that you're already working locally :). Is that issue in the bug tracker? I've not seen that one yet.

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

Yep and listed as high priority

 

Error

 

  Wait one minute, Tom you posted a work around on the bug post.

[ehren.]

​And here's the problem, themes require database interaction and ftp will not update the database. What it would take to get the database to interact with the ftp'd files I'm afraid could bring more issues and development. I can't see personally how this would go down.

​​I have zero knowledge on how the backend code works, but would it not be possible to have a "Sync" button in the manage resources area? If files/folders have been uploaded via FTP, you press the Sync button and those files are added to the database..?

Another issue I'd face with DM is how resource intensive it is, unless I'm mistaken? I have a "demo" board which showcases themes before customers buy them, registration is disabled. Themes are developed on that board, but if DM is required to develop themes, it's not ideal to have it enabled on a demo board which receives a lot of visitors. Developing locally then applying the fixes to the online demo board seems to be the only solution, which isn't practical nor ideal.

I hate being the guy who tags people for their attention, but I'm wondering if any solutions are possible..? @bfarber @Matt Once again, working with the html/css files isn't the issue here. It's the fact that DM must be enabled for uploading files via FTP and creating theme settings.

[DesignzShop]

​​I have zero knowledge on how the backend code works, but would it not be possible to have a "Sync" button in the manage resources area? If files/folders have been uploaded via FTP, you press the Sync button and those files are added to the database..?

Another issue I'd face with DM is how resource intensive it is, unless I'm mistaken? I have a "demo" board which showcases themes before customers buy them, registration is disabled. Themes are developed on that board, but if DM is required to develop themes, it's not ideal to have it enabled on a demo board which receives a lot of visitors. Developing locally then applying the fixes to the online demo board seems to be the only solution, which isn't practical nor ideal.

I hate being the guy who tags people for their attention, but I'm wondering if any solutions are possible..? @bfarber @Matt Once again, working with the html/css files isn't the issue here. It's the fact that DM must be enabled for uploading files via FTP and creating theme settings.

​I'm not far behind apparently on the back-end  No wiz coder for sure I am not. I would think something like this is heading in the right direction for sure in regards to your first comment. Part 2 is a little more difficult as I do not think anyone has as many themes as you so for me to speak on that would be maybe wrong. I can say here I plan to have around 30 themes myself on a demo board. That leads to the last part of your comment and it seems it wouldn't be ideal to run in dm while customers are at constant use.
 

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

​I'm not far behind apparently on the back-end  No wiz coder for sure I am not. I would think something like this is heading in the right direction for sure in regards to your first comment. Part 2 is a little more difficult as I do not think anyone has as many themes as you so for me to speak on that would be maybe wrong. I can say here I plan to have around 30 themes myself on a demo board. That leads to the last part of your comment and it seems it wouldn't be ideal to run in dm while customers are at constant use.
 

​That's the main issue, Coders that have Demo sites for sales/display of their themes, and also using the site for live site editing are finding the DM over burdening

the site.

[Woodsman]

​I keep waiting for AARP to send me a letter with the cure. It's just never came

Sheryll tossed mine... said it was to expensive for old farts like me.

[Woodsman]

​That's the main issue, Coders that have Demo sites for sales/display of their themes, and also using the site for live site editing are finding the DM over burdening

the site.

I am already seeing issues between my local and test site... Server at this point will handle the load just fine but I am fearing the possible extra load as I upgrade my live site and demo board. Not to mention adding 2 more DM's to the batch. Unfortunately the IDE won't work over the internet. At least not for me. What seemed to be time saving has turned into more time being spent.

[DesignzShop]

I just ran 10 themes at once through DM and it took 3 minutes  I have a powerful server of my own that runs great and is fast using 2 quad core xeons with I think 16gb mem. I can't imagine running more than this through. I know I'm gonna have more skins and if I run into a situation where I need to update a few at a time I can see the time consumption here is imo way too far out as compared to ftp. Mass amounts of time will be spent in DM over ftp. All I need DM for is changing some images and adding some. Hoping someone is still looking at this and alternatives

 

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

I just ran 10 themes at once through DM and it took 3 minutes  I have a powerful server of my own that runs great and is fast using 2 quad core xeons with I think 16gb mem. I can't imagine running more than this through. I know I'm gonna have more skins and if I run into a situation where I need to update a few at a time I can see the time consumption here is imo way too far out as compared to ftp. Mass amounts of time will be spent in DM over ftp. All I need DM for is changing some images and adding some. Hoping someone is still looking at this and alternatives

 

​That would be good if you could afford that server configuration, but for those that have to depend on shared host for cost purposes, put us at the

mercy of the corporate line. My host want upgrade base servers to the latest code. They are looking at the big picture.

[ehren.]

This issue by @AlbusDumbledore-Terry also seems to be fairly concerning (regarding enabling Designers Mode, posted in a bug report):

I have 8 themes in development and enabling DM causes extreme server issues. I use a shared host account on a major company and the server continues to time out, I sat and keep refreshing the screen to make the rebuild to complete. It may not be bad to a site with one or two themes but for us developers it is a major issue.

[DesignzShop]

​That would be good if you could afford that server configuration, but for those that have to depend on shared host for cost purposes, put us at the

mercy of the corporate line. My host want upgrade base servers to the latest code. They are looking at the big picture.

​I imagine a shared host would have you on suspension after doing what I just done ...

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

​I imagine a shared host would have you on suspension after doing what I just done ...

​Not Yet 

[ehren.]

I just ran 10 themes at once through DM and it took 3 minutes  I have a powerful server of my own that runs great and is fast using 2 quad core xeons with I think 16gb mem. I can't imagine running more than this through. I know I'm gonna have more skins and if I run into a situation where I need to update a few at a time I can see the time consumption here is imo way too far out as compared to ftp. Mass amounts of time will be spent in DM over ftp. All I need DM for is changing some images and adding some. Hoping someone is still looking at this and alternatives

 

​

I have 8 themes in development and enabling DM causes extreme server issues. I use a shared host account on a major company and the server continues to time out, I sat and keep refreshing the screen to make the rebuild to complete. It may not be bad to a site with one or two themes but for us developers it is a major issue.

Despite the initial reply from Matt, there unfortunately hasn't been much developer feedback to let us know if a solution is in the works. There is no doubt in my mind that I will have at least 8 themes on my development board within the first few weeks of 4.x "final", so this is something that's very concerning for me. I don't plan on simply doing colour modified themes using colour selectors - mine will include extensive theme settings, an "update notification URL" and custom resources, which means I have to enable DM - and I'm sure the same applies for other serious theme developers. If servers are struggling or timing out with a small amount of themes, and if no solution is introduced, I'm not actually sure how it will be possible to develop numerous themes on one installation..

@Matt, @bfarber Once again, I'm not normally the guy who tags people for attention and I understand this topic is getting a little extensive, but it's a fairly important issue for those of us who depend on your product for running a theme business. It not only affects me, but also thousands of my clients if I'm unable to release their products efficiently. Some insight would be greatly appreciated if possible, thank you.

 

[TSP]

Those who have a problem with it: What do you need that you only get in DM? 

To my knowledge you're still perfectly able to edit the HTML, template logic and CSS from the ACP (if you don't enable designers mode), I even think you're able to upload resources in the ACP without DM enabled.

So couldn't you just use the old approach of editing in the ACP without bothering with enabling DM? The ACP editing even have syntax highlighting and tabbing now.

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

Those who have a problem with it: What do you need that you only get in DM? 

To my knowledge you're still perfectly able to edit the HTML, template logic and CSS from the ACP (if you don't enable designers mode), I even think you're able to upload resources in the ACP without DM enabled.

So couldn't you just use the old approach of editing in the ACP without bothering with enabling DM? The ACP editing even have syntax highlighting and tabbing now.

The editing in DM allows for a more extensive coding than that which is afforded in manual mode. Many app developers also are able to code faster in DM.

[ehren.]

Those who have a problem with it: What do you need that you only get in DM? 

To my knowledge you're still perfectly able to edit the HTML, template logic and CSS from the ACP (if you don't enable designers mode), I even think you're able to upload resources in the ACP without DM enabled.

So couldn't you just use the old approach of editing in the ACP without bothering with enabling DM? The ACP editing even have syntax highlighting and tabbing now.

​It's not possible to create settings, assign theme author names/URL's or configure update alert URL's unless DM is enabled - all of which are fairly fundamental requirements for my themes.

Uploading resources via the admin cpanel is possible, but is far from user friendly compared to FTP programs.  It's fairly common for me to create forum themes which mirror a clients main website, some of which can have dozens of images. Uploading them individually via the resource manager in the admin cpanel isn't a very efficient method.

Additionally, due to the apparent lack of a "Template Merge Center" and "Difference reports", both of which were essential features in 3.x, it's impossible to find out what html/css files have been edited between forum updates unless DM is enabled, and a file comparison is completed on all files.

[Matt]

Building themes shouldn't be overly intensive. It's just looping over data and writing to disk. Locally it doesn't take very long at all.

Ideally, you'd be using a localhost server (even MAMP) to develop on where you can better control the environment.

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

Building themes shouldn't be overly intensive. It's just looping over data and writing to disk. Locally it doesn't take very long at all.

Ideally, you'd be using a localhost server (even MAMP) to develop on where you can better control the environment.

​Matt. the base issue that ehren and I have is that the live hosted sites, are heavy taxing on the host server. I use localhost for base coding, then final is done on live

server. In my case I use a shared host account, because of cost. Others may have the resources to have dedicated servers, but not all.

[ehren.]

Building themes shouldn't be overly intensive. It's just looping over data and writing to disk. Locally it doesn't take very long at all.

Ideally, you'd be using a localhost server (even MAMP) to develop on where you can better control the environment.

​So creating settings and uploading via FTP is 100% absolutely not possible to do, unless DM is enabled? They are the only two reasons why I'd enable it. A "sync resources" button or something isn't possible, after uploading via FTP? Developing locally is not ideal since I need to show my themes to my clients.

[ZakRhyno]

We're open to suggestion here. Tom has been posting bugs and issues and I've been keen to get the resolved ASAP.

We do feel that working with the actual template and CSS files - exactly as we do when developing IPS4 - is the easiest and fastest way to develop themes. It might take some adjustment, but I'm sure you'll find this the same too.

Ehren, 200+ themes is pretty niche - do you have any suggestions to help with that?

​Why not combine the IPB 3.0 features in to 4.0 in a hybrid way? An example would be take in some of the features that allow the skinners to make it how they like it without editing the database in xyz mode. While keeping the current abc mode so that live editing would be faster in IPS eyes. So both modes won't just got to waste have like an hybrid of both systems. I know this may be stepping back from what there to recode it and such, but it's an idea if any.