Would you like to see a client directory?

[Marcher Technologies]

The 'non-issue' you speak of is in fact an issue.

Obviously every link would require manual approval.

So add that on top of pre-sales forum, feedback, tickets, bug reports, documentation, and the actual development of the product.

This I personally believe is exactly why IPS no longer has a links Directory. Maintaining it does in fact take time, regardless of your 'non-issue', tis time best spent elsewhere.

[Makoto]

The 'non-issue' you speak of is in fact an issue.

Obviously every link would require manual approval.

So add that on top of pre-sales forum, feedback, tickets, bug reports, documentation, and the actual development of the product.

This I personally believe is exactly why IPS no longer has a links Directory. Maintaining it does in fact take time, regardless of your 'non-issue', tis time best spent elsewhere.

And IPS shouldn't take lunch breaks either, because that takes away valuable development time. They shouldn't take breaks at all. All that time is being wasted, get to work you lazy bums! We don't pay for your software to have you lazily participate in your own community! In fact, why are you even reading this right now? IP.B 3.4.0 still needs work!

I'm sure no one here in the community is respectable or well known enough to help out with the staffing either. And of course, all link submissions need be given a guaranteed time frame in which they'll be reviewed and submitted.

Right?

[Aiwa]

That's what moderators are for, right?

Jay does make a fair point. There are IPB sites out there, I've seen my fair share, that would not be appropriate. So there would have to be moderation of any such directory.

Then you run into the issue of someone submitting someone elses site that they didn't want in the directory... So you have to prove who owns it and take it down if need be and add it to a blacklist so it isn't re-listed...

It's not so much the management, but the creation... Look at Tracker... IPS had to maintain it to keep it working on future version of IP.Board... So it was one more thing they had to maintain... Since switching to IPC, it's all handled with apps that are in active development...

The same would likely have to be done with a links directory... Use IPC, but now custom templates have to be made and maintained... It's just one more thing that IPS needs to worry about when upgrading their paid products... And I wouldn't expect IPS to use a 3rd party product for this simply because they push upgrades here first... A 3rd party app could break with the updates made and the developer has no clue what to do to fix it until they get the code...

So, yes, it does take ongoing development time outside of having to 'manage' submissions or reports...

[Marcher Technologies]

You volunteering then? I'm betting Aiwa just liked my post because she(?) knows the truth of what I had guessed of being an MP mod(observing Michael McCune), which such a links curator would be in a similar position of.

A lot of time eaten up could be spent making x hook/mod maintenance/features thereof, and custom work.

A LOT more than you think, 10, 20, 30 links a day? this would be spammed, each site would need checked(much in the same way every file needs tested).

Edit: dunno really about the male/female .

[Rimi]

:) Aiwa is a girl? Well played.... :)

[Aiwa]

You volunteering then? I'm betting Aiwa just liked my post because she(?) knows the truth of what I had guessed of being an MP mod(observing Michael McCune), which such a links curator would be in a similar position of.

A lot of time eaten up could be spent making x hook/mod maintenance/features thereof, and custom work.

A LOT more than you think, 10, 20, 30 links a day? this would be spammed.

Edit: dunno really .

Really? You're telling me I look like a chick in my avatar? That's harsh man...

But on topic... It takes time to moderate / investigate issues... I'd rather that be managed by moderators than IPS Staff... Like Marcher says... They have better things to do... Though they would be the ones that would have to put forth the upfront and continued development time to make it a reality. DEV time taken away from the products we have all paid for and anxiously await future versions of...

The MP looks calm and serene, but there is a lot that goes on in the background to keep it that way.

[Marcher Technologies]

I Fail. lol, point remains valid Apologies.

[Aiwa]

I Fail. lol, point remains valid Apologies.

Lets settle it then... I'm a dude... not a dudette.

[Makoto]

That's what moderators are for, right?

Jay does make a fair point. There are IPB sites out there, I've seen my fair share, that would not be appropriate. So there would have to be moderation of any such directory.

Then you run into the issue of someone submitting someone elses site that they didn't want in the directory... So you have to prove who owns it and take it down if need be and add it to a blacklist so it isn't re-listed...

It's not so much the management, but the creation... Look at Tracker... IPS had to maintain it to keep it working on future version of IP.Board... So it was one more thing they had to maintain... Since switching to IPC, it's all handled with apps that are in active development...

The same would likely have to be done with a links directory... Use IPC, but now custom templates have to be made and maintained... It's just one more thing that IPS needs to worry about when upgrading their paid products... And I wouldn't expect IPS to use a 3rd party product for this simply because they push upgrades here first... A 3rd party app could break with the updates made and the developer has no clue what to do to fix it until they get the code...

So, yes, it does take ongoing development time outside of having to 'manage' submissions or reports...

It is an understandable point, but it's being grossly over-exagerated. "All that time needs to be spent on DEVVING!" I mean, come on. Really? IPS isn't glued to the computer screen 24/7 every day, they're human, they needs breaks, and simply taking time to skim over some link submissions sounds like a pretty nice break from coding to me. It lets you see all the creative sites people have made with the software you're working hard on. It's debatable how popular it would be, but it's not like every IPB forum in existence is going to come pouring in all at once.

How popular would it get? I don't know. IPS probably has some idea since they say they've had one twice now. But even if it does get to be a little too much work, they can simply stop accepting submissions until they have the free time on their hands to go through the existing ones. It's not something that needs any priority, but it still does sound kinda cool.

I am well aware there are site's out there that wouldn't be appropriate. Those site's wouldn't be appropriate to post here on the forums either, and I'm sure there have been at least a few "show off your site" threads.

I've never posted my site here and there's good reason for that. I obviously wouldn't contribute my site to the IPS directory either.

I think one of the important things to do would be to write up some solid guidelines people have to read before being allowed to submit anything. If they don't follow the guidelines, they just get banned from posting to the directory. The "people posting site's they don't own" is a valid point though, I honestly didn't really consider that, but I'm curious as to how often that would really happen.

I also think the Links Directory app in the marketplace would work pretty well for this. I don't think some custom IPC page needs be made for it. That I agree would probably be more effort than it's worth.

You volunteering then?

I have way too much free time on my hands. Sure, I wouldn't mind. But I don't think you'd really want me to volunteer, would you?

[Aiwa]

I also think the Links Directory app in the marketplace would work pretty well for this. I don't think some custom IPC page needs be made for it. That I agree would probably be more effort than it's worth.

I think you overlooked a key point I tried to make about using 3rd party apps... Say the Links directory breaks on a 3.4.0 upgrade? Now IPS would be responsible for upgrading that 3rd party app for compatibility, or remove it, when they run alphas like they are running now the developer doesn't have access to the source to make it work on an upgraded version they haven't seen... That's one reason Tracker went by the wayside for an IP.Content managed bug tracker...

So in all reality, IPC is the only 'upgrade proof' option for such a directory.

[Makoto]

I think you overlooked a key point I tried to make about using 3rd party apps... Say the Links directory breaks on a 3.4.0 upgrade? Now IPS would be responsible for upgrading that 3rd party app for compatibility, or remove it, when they run alphas like they are running now the developer doesn't have access to the source to make it work on an upgraded version they haven't seen... That's one reason Tracker went by the wayside for an IP.Content managed bug tracker...

So in all reality, IPC is the only 'upgrade proof' option for such a directory.

Okay. Fair enough. I should have considered that. You're completely right.

[CallieJo]

I'd suggest that if someone really wants a Powered By IPB directory; they can purchase a domain, buy an IPB license, purchase the Links addon, invite people to submit their website, and manage it all themselves. Problem solved.

Some of us would not use it at all. But, others might.

Just don't forget the recent freakish Google panic where some webmasters are running around the internet demanding their links be taken down from non-related websites. Don't add websites without the website owner's permission and you should be in the clear from the latest scare.

[Makoto]

I'd suggest that if someone really wants a Powered By IPB directory; they can purchase a domain, buy an IPB license, purchase the Links addon, invite people to submit their website, and manage it all themselves. Problem solved.

I think I'd rather just use a standard open directory script :s

But that doesn't sound like a terrible idea in itself.

[• Jay •]

It is an understandable point, but it's being grossly over-exaggerated. "All that time needs to be spent on DEVVING!" I mean, come on. Really? IPS isn't glued to the computer screen 24/7 every day, they're human, they needs breaks, and simply taking time to skim over some link submissions sounds like a pretty nice break from coding to me.

Wrong.

Break time from coding should be spent away from the computer monitor, which places strain on the eyes. That strain is regardless of resolution and contrast, it's just an occupational hazard.

CVS is not a myth.

[Marcher Technologies]

What break time from coding? :P

Strong back-lighting helps a lot there.

[CallieJo]

CVS is not a myth.

Wow! Sounds very familiar...

If you have computer vision syndrome, you may experience some or all of these symptoms:

• Blurred vision
• Double vision
• Dry, red eyes
• Eye irritation
• Headaches
• Neck or back pain

If these symptoms are not treated, they can have a real effect on your work performance.

They have great tips to help prevent and improve computer vision symptoms.

[Makoto]

Wrong.

Break time from coding should be spent away from the computer monitor, which places strain on the eyes. That strain is regardless of resolution and contrast, it's just an occupational hazard.

CVS is not a myth.

Thanks for the online medical advice, but I've been staring at computer screens for 8+ hours a day 5-7 days a week for the last 3-4 years and I still have 20/20 vision and no real issues with eye strain or any of the symptoms listed there.

I'm sure everyone here appreciates you lecturing us on how we should take our breaks too.

[Rimi]

:) Come on guys. I'm pretty sure it's up to IPS and not you to decide what they should be doing with their time whether or not that includes what they do during breaks. The notion that what resources IPS dedicates where invalidates this feedback is pretty ridiculous because that's not really your call. I think an addition like this would be quite nice for the IPS community and quite frankly I think the IPS community as a whole could do with some nourishment even if it's not this specific suggestion.

There's nothing fun or engaging about being a part of this community. I enjoy some people's company here more than others and I've made a handful of friends who I chat with regularly on Skype/AIM/MSN, but at the end of the day everything here is strictly business. In the past I've heard of the people here having skinning competitions and stuff, but in all my time here I've never seen anything like that. I've never seen anything fun or engaging aside from the threads I've made myself in the client lounge which IPS says they hate. I've been told by a staff member here that this community is like a small family and on the same token I've been told that this forum is not my little playground. This forum does not feel like a community, or at least not in the way that the sites I run feel. I'd like to think that after spending a year here I'd know a little more about some of the people here (or at least what sites they run), but I can really only say that about 2 or 3 of the people here whereas on my forum I can say that about well over 30 users.

I think a client directory exclusive to members of the IPS community for submission is a step in the right direction for community development. It's not about IPS taking time out of development to make something you view as pointless. It's about IPS making time for the sake of developing their community. I do not know if community development is on IPS' agenda (and for all we know it may not be - they are a full fledged professional company after all, you know how corporations can be), but if it is I think a client directory would be beneficial. :)

[Rimi]

Thanks for the online medical advice, but I've been staring at computer screens for 8+ hours a day 5-7 days a week for the last 3-4 years and I still have 20/20 vision and no real issues with eye strain or any of the symptoms listed there.

I'm sure everyone here appreciate you lecturing us on how we should take our breaks too.

:) I've been doing that in addition to staring into my little phone screen the entire night watching movies in the dark. Although, I don't have 20/20 vision..but I don't wear glasses either. :)

[• Jay •]

It's not about IPS taking time out of development to make something you view as pointless. It's about IPS making time for the sake of developing their community.

If that was a priority, I don't think they'd have gotten rid of the general discussion forum.

[Rimi]

If that was a priority, I don't think they'd have gotten rid of the general discussion forum.

:) They didn't get rid of it. They have already stated that the client lounge will serve as the place for general discussion. Just nobody in this community uses it for that purpose because this community is neither fun nor engaging like I said above. :)

[• Jay •]

They didn't get rid of it. They have already stated that the client lounge will serve as the place for general discussion. Just nobody in this community uses it for that purpose because this community is neither fun nor engaging like I said above.

The Client Lounge existed simultaneously with it before, because they had two separate audiences. IPS shut out general chatter from non-customers, hence the drop in activity.

It's not that hard to figure out.

[Makoto]

The Client Lounge existed simultaneously with it before, because they had two separate audiences. IPS shut out general chatter from non-customers, hence the drop in activity.

It's not that hard to figure out.

Do you just enjoy throwing insults every chance you get? Was that last line really needed?

I've honestly largely just considered this a technical support forum. It didn't feel like much a community until I started getting more involved. I can't say it's a bad thing, but I think a bit more community interaction could be fun.

[Rimi]

The Client Lounge existed simultaneously with it before, because they had two separate audiences. IPS shut out general chatter from non-customers, hence the drop in activity.

It's not that hard to figure out.

:) Well yeah, non-customers aren't a part of the community. :)

Do you just enjoy throwing insults every chance you get? Was that last line really needed?

I've honestly largely just considered this a technical support forum. It didn't feel like much a community until I started getting more involved. I can't say it's a bad thing, but I think a bit more community interaction could be fun.

:) You should just ignore the random outbursts. :)

[Eric Allione]

Regarding the problem of staff resources, there is a simple solution: Bring on volunteer editors. It is very easy to find people who are willing to be moderators for free.

For example,

I have way too much free time on my hands. Sure, I wouldn't mind.

I personally have labored for many solid weeks (beyond the span of a year) alongside other forum staff members who were getting paid for doing essentially the same thing, and it never bothered me.


Regarding the "concern" about people feeling entitled about posting links to the IPB forums that they are using to run their prostitution rings: Make sure the volunteer editors check the sites and make sure that they don't fall into the NSFW category. It's not hard to follow NSFW guidelines and to check if a site is really IPB.

The main thing that would need to be worked out is with verifying site ownership: in the event that someone is requesting that their site be removed fraudulently. But since fraudulent "take down my site requests" should be minimal or non-existent, I think it would be best to give such requests the benefit of the doubt, maybe notifying the original requester that the link has been removed. However, I see that as an extremely minor kink since the Panda/Penguin updates only created a panic to be removed from known link-buying services. Panda/Penguin do not penalize sites for having off-topic backlinks, they just give them a smaller boost. Then again, the presence of categories within the directory would force some relevance. Also, if the links were nofollow then that would completely resolve any such paranoia over this point, although I do believe that would be overkill.


But if for some reason, volunteer editors were not given a chance, then I imagine that the small boost in revenue that would result from A) IPB forums being showcased to prospective clients and B) seeing tangible evidence that IPS does in fact care about their clients (even though this would also be a business move). Yes, I'm aware that the IPS staff, especially Matt, invests long hours each day scrutinizing client requests. However, this is not obvious to an an outsider who is trying to scan the forums. There are many support threads, including many unanswered questions, and it would be easy to misinterpret the IPS staff's dedication from an outside view, especially from the reiterated sentiment of the Vbulletin community that IPS staff are "rude". I see this as a tangible, visible, and effective counterinstance to that misnomer.

Spoilered since I'm going off-topic here and probably overstepping my bounds. I'd prefer this part not be quoted:

On the point about the directory crashing with an upgrade: Take it down if it crashes and wait for JLogica to fix it and make it upgrade-compatible. That's a paid mod and he isn't going to let it go to waste. Anyway, forgive me for going off-topic and saying this, but I personally would have never been attracted to IPB if it weren't for his shoutbox, and I wouldn't be surprised if a substantial portion of IPB's revenue can be attributed to the existence of this shoutbox. My point is only that he is very capable and that it would not be irresponsible to depend on his app. And since IPS already depends on him somewhat unless they buy the shoutbox project for themselves, it would neither be a stretch nor the first time that IPS has depended on "third party" support. As an auxiliary example, this site's tutorial was designed by Michael was it not?Also, I see this crash as very unlikely since I have been reassured from all directions lately, most credibly from Levy, that IPB is getting better and better about not losing its hooks, skins, and major applications during upgrades.