Ways to compensate for IPB 3.x not fully supporting IE6

[Fast Lane!]

I know this has been talked about before but IE6 will not be fully supported in IPB 3.x. As of today IPB 3.x renders unusable in many circumstances on IE6 however Charles and other IPB Staff indicate that it will be supported better (but not fully) in the final release. My question is this. Will it be possible to utilize all the new IPB 3.x features without IE6 native support? Would it require a complex (and costly) 3rd party skin to obtain this and if so would this lead to compatibility and other problems with future upgrades?

What are people's thoughts? As of today it was published that IE6 globally still has a 23% market share (http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/03/04/firefox.overtakes.ie6/), which is a HUGE portion of potential users that would be affected by this. My sites have about a 15% IE6 user base based on my statistics and even that number is high enough for me to be concerned about them. My personal opinion is that despite the urge to move forward to a more standards compliant skin, supporting IE6 is still an evil that we have to deal with. No matter how much we want, many people are not upgrading any time soon. Sites like Digg.com which is very web 2.0'ish even support IE6.

Basically, what are people's plan to overcome this issue? Please do not simply post "tell my users to upgrade to IE7/8/firefox". This is not the question and not realistic. I am NOT going to have a major website say, "Best if browsed with IE7 or higher, Firefox, etc".

[iMonkey]

I'm no expert, I just use the software, but the way I understand it is the system is now developed to utilize far newer technologies than have previously been used and IE6 merely doesn't "cut it" anymore. It can't handle what this forum software does and making all of these features work in IE6 would be a step backwards let alone a huge waste of time. As far as I know, they will make a lite template that cuts down on a lot of the functions but still allows IE6 to use the boards basic functionality of viewing, posting, etc., none of the newer cooler features.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='iMonkey' date='05 March 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1236286549' post='1788949']
I'm no expert, I just use the software, but the way I understand it is the system is now developed to utilize far newer technologies than have previously been used and IE6 merely doesn't "cut it" anymore. It can't handle what this forum software does and making all of these features work in IE6 would be a step backwards let alone a huge waste of time. As far as I know, they will make a lite template that cuts down on a lot of the functions but still allows IE6 to use the boards basic functionality of viewing, posting, etc., none of the newer cooler features.


That solution bothers me though. That is like telling me that 23% of my members will get a lower quality version of my site. They will also not get the same user experience as other people (which from a branding perspective is bad). Additionally it increases my workload supporting two skins and tech support for people on both. Also the "bare skin" would probably not work as the primary skin for me as I have to "integrate" it with the main website skin which then takes away the purpose of it being the "light" skin.

[rct2·com]

I guess it depends on the customer base for your site and their ability/willingness to upgrade IE. The fact is, IE6 SP2 goes out of Microsoft support in around 15 months time [July 2010]. Are your IE6 visitors paying customers? Are they going to keep with IE6? What is the cost of retaining them? Is the cost worth the retention?

Eventually ensuring that your board supports IE6 is going to become your problem rather than IPS problem. But I guess the key question is "When"?

[sparc]

It sounds like IPS is going to make a reasonable effort to take care of the biggest issues with it. It just may not look perfect.

I would guess IE6 users are already experiencing problems viewing sites on the internet. Or some features being disabled for certain browsers.

The way i look at it......as long as the larger problems are taken care of and nobody on our site complains....i'm not going to worry about it.

We're almost at IE8.

[Novawave]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1236286770' post='1788955']
That is like telling me that 23% of my members will get a lower quality version of my site.


Sure, and what's wrong with that? If 23% of your users have a low quality browser, I don't see how they can expect to see the same quality design elements as those who have upgraded to modern browsers.

There's cut to be a cut-off point somewhere. I mean IE8 is on the way.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='novatech' date='05 March 2009 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1236287341' post='1788962']
Sure, and what's wrong with that? If 23% of your users have a low quality browser, I don't see how they can expect to see the same quality design elements as those who have upgraded to modern browsers.

There's cut to be a cut-off point somewhere. I mean IE8 is on the way.


I do see your point. But tell me this. If you consider your website as a business and every visitor a paying customer, would you tell 23% of your customers that they get a "lesser" version of the site? Would you want to risk losing that income just to have a standards compliant skin? I could see doing this for 5% or less maybe. Personally when a decision like this threatens to hurt my pocket book in terms of $ (turning off potentially 23% of users to a competing site potentially) then I am pretty concerned.

So a little math. Lets say you make $1000 a month from your website. Now lets say 25% of them are using IE6. Lets say that a third of that 25% decide they want to leave because of this. That means that you will be losing roughly 8% of your userbase NET and losing $80 a month or $960 a year. This is a low estimate because of the referral nature of forums and websites and that you have that many less people talking about your site and referring others.

[rct2·com]

You could charge them less I guess for the lesser experience. But unless they are customers who don't have control over what is installed on their desktop, all you're asking them to do is download and install a free upgrade to their browser.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='rct2dotcom' date='05 March 2009 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1236288155' post='1788967']
You could charge them less I guess for the lesser experience. But unless they are customers who don't have control over what is installed on their desktop, all you're asking them to do is download and install a free upgrade to their browser.


Well anything I run is free to the user and funded by other means. I can not charge people less than free :).

In general, people are lazy. They will often just go to another website than figure out how to download a newer browser. There is that thing about page load time and if it is more than 3-5 seconds you will lose visitors -- and it is true. Additionally to those who just wont upgrade, there are those that can not (many many businesses and government offices) which end up being a large number of people during the work day.

[sparc]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1236286107' post='1788945'] I am NOT going to have a major website say, "Best if browsed with IE7 or higher, Firefox, etc".

From what I understand gmail is doing that already and I expect more sites to follow.
_______________________________

Also, there are custom skins that will likely be available. And IPS hasn't necessarily ruled out offering other skins at some point.

[rct2·com]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1236288535' post='1788968']Additionally to those who just wont upgrade, there are those that can not (many many businesses and government offices) which end up being a large number of people during the work day.

That's OK, let them rot. They should be concentrating on governing and planning us out of this economic crisis and not visiting your site. :)

[Peter F.]

I would ask them to upgrade to IE7 or Firefox or Google Chrome or Opera, all of which are free.

If they don't have control over installing programs on their desktop there are very good portable versions of Firefox available from portableapps.com which can run off of a USB stick or from their H drive etc.

If they don't want to upgrade because they like IE6 (why I don't know) then I would suggest informing them that IE6 will no longer be supported as a browser by Microsoft in June of 2010 and that it would be in their best interest to upgrade sooner rather than later.

If they still don't want to upgrade then the only thing you can do is let them know that in order to improve the site certain technologies need to be used which are unfortunately not supported by IE6 and that there will be an IE6 compatible skin but that it will not have many of the features that newer browsers would be able to support "out of the box".

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='peaderfi' date='05 March 2009 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1236289661' post='1788979']
I would ask them to upgrade to IE7 or Firefox or Google Chrome or Opera, all of which are free.

If they don't have control over installing programs on their desktop there are very good portable versions of Firefox available from portableapps.com which can run off of a USB stick or from their H drive etc.

If they don't want to upgrade because they like IE6 (why I don't know) then I would suggest informing them that IE6 will no longer be supported as a browser by Microsoft in June of 2010 and that it would be in their best interest to upgrade sooner rather than later.

If they still don't want to upgrade then the only thing you can do is let them know that in order to improve the site certain technologies need to be used which are unfortunately not supported by IE6 and that there will be an IE6 compatible skin but that it will not have many of the features that newer browsers would be able to support "out of the box".


So I get all these items and even now I would promote this (even with an IE6 supported skin). That said, would you be willing to lose $$ and market share over this issue? I know I am not. These new fancy features we get are just not worth it (and users really care about content and that the site has a general ease of use and basic features).

[Peter F.]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1236290138' post='1788980']
So I get all these items and even now I would promote this (even with an IE6 supported skin). That said, would you be willing to lose $$ and market share over this issue? I know I am not. These new fancy features we get are just not worth it (and users really care about content and that the site has a general ease of use and basic features).


Your best option would be then to poll your users and see what they think of it, and if they would be willing to upgrade or if they can't/won't if they would still visit the site without being able to access all of the fancy features?

And honestly it depends on how much money you make off of each individual user (if any at all) or if your money is gained via advertising and the like.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='peaderfi' date='05 March 2009 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1236290334' post='1788982']
Your best option would be then to poll your users and see what they think of it, and if they would be willing to upgrade or if they can't/won't if they would still visit the site without being able to access all of the fancy features?

And honestly it depends on how much money you make off of each individual user (if any at all) or if your money is gained via advertising and the like.


I agree but this does not cover getting feedback from guest users (probably a 2 or 3:1 ratio on most sites (to registered users)) and it does not cover new users down the road. Even if you got all current registered members to swap it would still be an issue.

I do understand you point also. For small sites it is easier to get everyone moved to a new browser if needed. When you have tens of thousands or more members it is another story all together. For larger sites this is an issue and I feel like IPB is not considering customers in this situation. I am sure their corporate and larger customers such as NBC and others who use IPB will take ill to this decision.

[bfarber]

I'm surprised another topic has been opened about this tbh. :unsure:

The reason people don't bother upgrade most of the time is become nothing forces them to. It was the same way with PHP5 - had tons of nice features and functionality we've been wanting to put to use, but because hosts didn't want to upgrade because nothing forced them to, nobody releasing an application available to a customer base could really make use of the new features for a very long time.

IE8 is almost out. IE6 will be EOL very soon. At some point you have to move on. There are potential alternatives for IE6 users, but we can't concentrate on supporting 10 year old technology. It's just unrealistic. The bulk of the big issues will be fixes as Charles has stated. But it's about time to move on, and the longer people (including us) cater to the outdated browsers, the longer people will cling to them, since there's no reason not to.

[bfarber]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1236290764' post='1788984']
For larger sites this is an issue and I feel like IPB is not considering customers in this situation. I am sure their corporate and larger customers such as NBC and others who use IPB will take ill to this decision.


Absolutely none of our corporate customers use our default skin, so this argument is irrelevant. It is possible to make a consistent skin if you want to (albeit likely without all the flashiness in the current skin).

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='bfarber' date='05 March 2009 - 11:06 PM' timestamp='1236290818' post='1788985']
I'm surprised another topic has been opened about this tbh. :unsure:

The reason people don't bother upgrade most of the time is become nothing forces them to. It was the same way with PHP5 - had tons of nice features and functionality we've been wanting to put to use, but because hosts didn't want to upgrade because nothing forced them to, nobody releasing an application available to a customer base could really make use of the new features for a very long time.

IE8 is almost out. IE6 will be EOL very soon. At some point you have to move on. There are potential alternatives for IE6 users, but we can't concentrate on supporting 10 year old technology. It's just unrealistic. The bulk of the big issues will be fixes as Charles has stated. But it's about time to move on, and the longer people (including us) cater to the outdated browsers, the longer people will cling to them, since there's no reason not to.


I agree with you on this and if I could force them to upgrade that would be ideal. However to think that one website (of the many my members visit each day) would have the power to force them to upgrade is a stretch. Most people would find it easier just to go to another site if the one they are visiting suddenly does not work well. If LOTS of sites suddenly did not work then maybe they would upgrade. I think that most sites still support IE6 and it seems a little quick for IPB which is the backbone of many websites to be on the leading edge of the transition. If anything I would thinking waiting until the EOL date would be appropriate.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='bfarber' date='05 March 2009 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1236290936' post='1788986']
Absolutely none of our corporate customers use our default skin, so this argument is irrelevant. It is possible to make a consistent skin if you want to (albeit likely without all the flashiness in the current skin).


NBC:
http://boards.nbc.com/nbc/index.php?act=idx

Nvidia:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=idx

For NBC, this is the stock 2.x skin with a simple bit of html in the wrapper around it to "integrate it" into the rest of the site. For Nvidia it is nearly stock entirely. If they did this with IPB 3.x it would have the problems I discussed with IE6.

[Mesmer]

Also nice to read:
Current international web sites warning against Internet Explorer 6

A Wiki, Facebook group and a Twitter hash tag.

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='Mesmer' date='05 March 2009 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1236291597' post='1788989']
Also nice to read:
Current international web sites warning against Internet Explorer 6

A Wiki, Facebook group and a Twitter hash tag.


I have never heard of any of these to be honest. Yahoo.com, MSN.com, MSNBC.com, cnn.com, digg.com, facebook.com, slashdot.org, foxnews.com, myspace.com, etc... all support IE6 and I doubt that will change soon.

[Terry - AKA Dumbledore]

As soon as most get ride of W98 and move to XP, then IE6 will faze out.

[Mesmer]

[quote name='Fast Lane!' date='05 March 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1236292060' post='1788991']
I have never heard of any of these to be honest. Yahoo.com, MSN.com, MSNBC.com, cnn.com, digg.com, facebook.com, slashdot.org, foxnews.com, myspace.com, etc... all support IE6 and I doubt that will change soon.


Blimey. I didn’t realise that Facebook are trending down support for IE6. The “new look†is disabled, and if you use the old look you get a big message complaining about your browser choice:



;)

Facebook doesn’t really support IE6

Link

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='Mesmer' date='05 March 2009 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1236292386' post='1788995']
Link

;)


Valid point. But they still chose to build in a fully functional skin (versus a very reduced and limited skin).

[Fast Lane!]

[quote name='AlbusDumbledore' date='05 March 2009 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1236292243' post='1788994']
As soon as most get ride of W98 and move to XP, then IE6 will faze out.


Yes. I would say we should at a minimum wait until Windows 7 / IE8 are final and released. This will help spell the end of IE6 especially with the EOL notice for IE6 just over a year out. This will force everyone to upgrade and solve the issue. I hope IPB can hold on to support for it until then. The other (and less terrific option) is if IPB extends it EOL notice for IPB 2.x out until then and provides bug and technical support to then. Even if this was not an option I would not upgrade to IPB 3.x for likely 3-6 months after its release to allow any latent bugs and security flaws to be found and fixed.