Moving a post

[Elbmek]

In my forum, for decades, I used to move an incorrectly placed post or image into the correct section by simply  clicking on 'move' and clicking on the correct place for it to be inserted. Too easy. Then the software was upgraded and has a nice 'feel' to it. BUT

Now if I want to move a post from A to B I have to firstly tick on the post and then select 'split' from the appearing menu. At first I took this to mean the obvious - that a split meant that the item would remain in A and appear in B also. Which of course I did not want so I made a support ticket and the very helpful lads explained ti me what had changed and how.  I followed their instructions and it became complicated, asking me if it was to a new thread or old, but I had never been asked before to put in a requested url for the destination, instead selecting  the destination from a drop down menu.  OK, so my suggestion:

I want to move a post from an incorrect place elsewhere, I should be able to select one post, tick it, and open move to: click on the resulting place and submit as I used to  - in the UK army we have a saying KISS. (Keep It Simple Stupid).

[Morrigan]

I think the URL method is the simplest and probably for the best honestly. Having IPS load topic titles (which lets be honest could be have multiple with the same topic title from a few to a few hundred depending on community size) would be daunting and you may have to do it multiple times if you accidentally choose the wrong one.

Just doing a search here on IPS for "Need some help" there are two pages of topic results with a few variations but there are multiples that are just titled "Need some help" and nothing more:

https://invisioncommunity.com/search/?&q=need some help&type=forums_topic&search_and_or=and&search_in=titles

A quick copy of the topic's URL that you want to move a single post to ensures you are going to move it to the correct topic every time.

[Elbmek]

Thanks for replying. The problem I had initially was that I did not know I was heading for a url related move. Now I know, I can grab the section url before beginning the transit. I still think the previous method was the best, long tried tested and working.

[Morrigan]

I'll be honest, I don't have to do a post split/merge often enough for this to matter. I find it odd that you need to do it often enough that its a problem.  Also, I haven't had 3.x installed in like 5 years so I totally forget how that system even worked.

[bfarber]

I've been trying to understand the fundamental suggestion here and it seems like the request is basically to rename "split" to "move" in the multi-moderation tool?

[Elbmek]

My members are all ex army. I have been running this forum since late 90s in various formats; the current one is the best and the oldest.  Its attached to a web site www.1rtr.net. My  forum keeps different sections on different subjects to make navigation by some who still do not understand the net easier. An 'expert' does not know what I put into my forum, all they see is the broader picture. How to write script, how to present something online and how to correct errors, of which there are many. I am 71, many of the members are not far behind me. We have a saying in the British Army KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid, but experts try to complicate matters.  The lads who run the software are and have been a great help, and I am in their debt. It was their idea to post this as a 'suggestion'.

OK, the 'fundamental' suggestion is to revert the controls back to when one of my old gits (myself included) posts a fun image in my jokes section. But I want it ti go into my 'fun pics' sub forum instead. In the last issue of this software I could do this by selecting the offending post, right click, click on 'move' then the software asked me where do I want it to go. From a drop down I select 'fun images' sub forum and say GO! And it does. Whats so hard to appreciate about that simple procedure.

Now, in the new software, the word 'Move' has been replaced by 'Split' with new options including the fact I have to insert a 'url' which I never had to do before. When I MOVE something I move it in entirety. When I SPLIT something I have TWO. Easy! Remember: KISS.   I tried 'split' and selected my new destination and I ended up sending the whole damn thread to the destination which I did not want.

If all this is above some peoples heads, forget it and I'll try to bumble on regardless.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Elbmek

[Joel R]

2 hours ago, Elbmek said:

OK, the 'fundamental' suggestion is to revert the controls back to when one of my old gits (myself included) posts a fun image in my jokes section. But I want it ti go into my 'fun pics' sub forum instead. In the last issue of this software I could do this by selecting the offending post, right click, click on 'move' then the software asked me where do I want it to go. From a drop down I select 'fun images' sub forum and say GO! And it does. Whats so hard to appreciate about that simple procedure.

Now, in the new software, the word 'Move' has been replaced by 'Split' with new options including the fact I have to insert a 'url' which I never had to do before. When I MOVE something I move it in entirety. When I SPLIT something I have TWO. Easy! Remember: KISS.   I tried 'split' and selected my new destination and I ended up sending the whole damn thread to the destination which I did not want.

If all this is above some peoples heads, forget it and I'll try to bumble on regardless.

Hi @Elbmek,

I think I understand the confusion - you want to move a single post.  

Keep in mind that most posts are not isolated to themselves.  There are subsequent posts that flow with the discussion, so in most cases (and I'm speaking broadly here), when you move a post, you normally want to move that post and all subsequent posts.  That' why IPS calls it 'split,' because it divides the topic at that point.    

I believe you want to move only that one post, yes?  

[CoffeeCake]

I think the confusion stems from the fact that the "split" option for moderators has two inherent functions. In the current incantation of IPS, split is the single option you'd select for the following two scenarios:

• Move selected post(s) in a thread to a new thread in the same or different forum; and
• Move selected post(s) into a different thread that already exists, regardless of what forum it's located in

I think what @Elbmek is trying to do is the first option. One of his members posts a funny picture in reply to a conversation about something else, and he'd like to remove that post from that discussion and instead put it in a new thread in the funny post section of his web site.

From @Elbmek's perspective (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), keeping things simple would involve to separate options in the moderator toolbar. One that moved posts into new threads in a forum of his choosing, and a second button that stuck posts in the middle of a preexisting thread.

"Move" may be a better name for "split" in the moderator toolbar. While move exists for threads within a forum, it's got a different name at the post level within a thread. I think the names we have now are just a byproduct of the things that existed before IPS and how they worked in the past, rather than a reflection of any common sense.

I've been confused by the ability to merge two posts together into a single post, even when the posts are written by different people. That'd be a nice one to turn off entirely. Good luck fixing that mistake. 🙂

To give you a simple way to do what you're trying to accomplish, @Elbmek, tick the single post you'd like to move to your funny forum, click "Split" on the toolbar, make sure "new topic" is selected, and then choose your funny forum from the drop down list. The other options in that window are likely not things you're looking for, but you can do things like set the title of the new topic that will be opened in your funny forum, or lock the resulting thread so no one can reply, etc.

You shouldn't have to preselect a URL for anything unless you're putting all the funny picture posts into a single thread, in which case you'd copy the web address of the funny post picture thread and supply it for the existing thread option.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Paul E.
Clarity.

[CoffeeCake]

Also, @Elbmek, you could rename "Split" to "Move" on your forum for your moderators if you'd like to do so.

To do that, log into the ACP, go to Customization > Localization > Languages and click on the globe icon next to your installed language to "translate." You can then search for the word "split" and provided a translated word or phrase to make things easier to understand for your moderators. For example, you may want to change the System string "Split" to "Move Posts."

Thank you for your service, and for providing your feedback. It takes a bit of a distinguished and trained eye to point these things out sometimes, and while others here may not bother with such things and accept them as they are, I think you raise a wonderful point about decisions in the user interface that could use a bit of KISS.

3 hours ago, Joel R said:

Keep in mind that most posts are not isolated to themselves.  There are subsequent posts that flow with the discussion, so in most cases (and I'm speaking broadly here), when you move a post, you normally want to move that post and all subsequent posts.  That' why IPS calls it 'split,' because it divides the topic at that point.  

Split doesn't do this. All subsequent posts will go wherever the poster replying decides to post them (unless you lock a topic to further replies). Split, in all honesty, just moves posts to either a new thread or a preexisting one. It does nothing more.

I think IPS uses the word split here because that's what other forum software was using when it was first written, and they kept the conventions at the time. One of the most common use case scenarios would be where in the course of discussion on a thread, the topics branch off. As an example, perhaps @Elbmek has members in a single thread talking about military uniforms and then someone adds a funny picture, and a series of replies are made about the picture that have nothing to do with uniforms any more.

In this case, you might want to "split" that conversation into two--keeping the military uniform discussion in one place, and the funny picture and anyone that has commented on the picture into a separate thread. In this context, "split" makes sense--the moderator is "splitting" off a series of posts. Yet, there are other reasons to move posts that will vary from community to community.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Paul E.
Somehow hit save too early. :D

[Morrigan]

Its not a move.... not technically. Its two actions that they are doing. A split (remove this post from this thread) and a merge (put said post into another thread).

Its not an actual "move" action. A move action is to take this topic and send it elsewhere.

Technically the action that is being performed is "remove this post from this thread and add it to this thread" which in this instance the split/use URL to place it in the other topic is the option. (Like I said in my original post is Split/Merge).

What I believe is the core suggestion here is that @Elbmek wants an auto-select option for threads. So instead of placing a URL for where they want to merge said post to they type in the start of a title and it does a quick database search (like the tagging system) to find it and they just click on it. I pointed out in my original post, the flaw in this sort of item but if its done like Pages relational database fields it would be fine.

[Elbmek]

paul thank you for all that info, which I will need to read though a couple more times, that was some work you put in there and I greatly appreciate it.

morrigan, sort of - I am asking for a return to the previous move commands, which I had and used, in the last version. It was quite literally 'dead easy'

sorry Joel, just seen your post also. Paul explained it, moving an indavertently posted post to another different destination. NOT the topic. As I mentioned before my members are not au fait with technology in some cases, software to most and they easily get roped into the wrong thread, I have done it myself.  Because of these and other reasons I feel it is important to have definitive topics in definitive sub forms. This make it easy for the members to find topics of their interest.

One mentioned to me that he had asked a question addressed to me about the upgrade, but he had placed it 'somewhere' and then thought I had removed it, nor he does know where it went, and neither do I. Perhaps one day I/we will stumble upon it. 🔎

Edited October 13, 2020 by Elbmek

[Elbmek]

12 hours ago, Paul E. said:

To do that, log into the ACP, go to Customization > Localization > Languages and click on the globe icon next to your installed language to "translate." You can then search for the word "split" and provided a translated word or phrase to make things easier to understand for your moderators. For example, you may want to change the System string "Split" to "Move Posts."

OUCH! There are 577 pages in that section - still searching - joke - searched and found and 'translated to move' for now. Now to see if it worked.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Elbmek

[Elbmek]

I followed Pauls instructions and also made a new category 'Test Bed'. I changed Split to Move, it worked. I know its only a word, but original was confoooosing! It opened and offered me 'new topic' or 'existing topic'. If I open existing I get a request for a url and no drop down. If I select New Topic, I get my drop down menu and can directed the image/post into Test Bed. It move only selected and nothing else. THATS what I want.  (That does need changing to remove url menu. IMO. I then successfully moved the original posts back to fun images sub forum without a hitch.

Thank's to all contributors to my request, I appreciate you're efforts. Should this remain in case someone else has same idea, or delete thread?
 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Elbmek

[bfarber]

There's absolutely no need to delete this topic, no - a new take or view on a feature that's been present for a while is never bad. Things evolve and we're always working to make things simpler so this is something we can keep in mind and continue to gauge opinions and feedback on.

[Elbmek]

Thanks bf

[CoffeeCake]

Glad translating "Split" to "Move Posts" worked for you, @Elbmek!

4 hours ago, Morrigan said:

Its not a move.... not technically. Its two actions that they are doing. A split (remove this post from this thread) and a merge (put said post into another thread).

Its not an actual "move" action. A move action is to take this topic and send it elsewhere.

It's all about perspective, @Morrigan. The end result of using the "split" feature in all cases is that Post X goes from Thread A to Thread B. How or what steps are involved in making the determination, or in what buttons are clicked, or when Moderator Y of Community Z would typically do that don't matter all that much. If you want to put Post X "somewhere else," using the words "move Post X" is a perfectly sensical way of looking at things. Especially for those who haven't been working with forum software for decades. From a technical perspective, Post X's association changes from Thread A to Thread B--the identifier for the post is simply changed in the database to reflect the destination thread. "Change Thread ID for Post" would probably be the most accurate description.

I don't think there's a "correct way" of doing things, and the translate tools allow us to customize things to what work for our individual communities. I'd hypothesize that if you asked a non-technical person with no forum experience who didn't have the background knowledge you and I do of administering forum software for many years to describe the outcome of a moderator using the split tool to describe what happened, you'd be hard pressed to find that people universally use the word "split" to describe the activity that took place. Maybe in those cases where two distinct conversations are happening in a thread and replies to discussion A end up in one thread and replies to discussion B end up in another, yet what about when someone accidentally replies to the wrong thread? In that context, "oh the moderator moved Member W's post to where it was supposed to go."

I know understanding these terms are part of the training we put together for our moderators, who are typically non-technical. But the question is a good one that brings up things we might otherwise take for granted--is the right word to describe what this thing does for all communities and in most situations? Should we consider updating documentation to help make this clearer for new administrators and moderators? Are there improvements in the user experience we could make to help the person using the tool understand which tool is best for the intended action, and what choices are best to achieve the desired end result?

[Elbmek]

Paul, you're last paragraph is very relevant. The answer is yes, the developers need to think as the end user. When I bought this software just over 10 years ago, I was so delighted with it. At that time I did have technical assistance from an aquaintance who understood. I certainly didn't. Before that I have been using another (swearword) that hiked their costs up so much it became financially unviable. So I came here and never regretted a moment. BUT, now that I have to do all my own changes, its not so easy now. The upgrades are brilliant because its all 'button driven' but customisation is another matter. nobody wants the dead end original, we all want something personal of different.  I have learnt a hell of a lot over the past couple of years but there are still lots and lots of terms I have no idea about so consequently don't touch.

Paul helped me on that score.  Tools, where possible should be orientated to the end user eg: Move - where do you want to move this to - done.  Bar colour, this is the bar you want to alter - yes/no - select - colour -change - done.  I sorted that last one myself !!! Whhoo.

Finally something I am still trying to master - inserting an image, in my case a small regimental badge, into the header before or after the title test without upsetting the balance.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Elbmek

[Morrigan]

See its absolutely an understanding thing but its understanding that "split" means "split from this topic" or "remove from this topic" it doesn't mean "merge into another" or "move into another" I think, overall, "move to another topic" being the default is actually more confusing then "split from this topic" overall.

Not everyone will understand the specifics depending on the community, you're both correct, but if you leave people uneducated then it can be overall more confusing because you're NOT moving a post. You ARE separating a post from its parent topic (the one that the person replied to) though which is "splitting" the topic. This has been the terminology for it since 3 so with this software for over 10 years.

I will concede that "split" often means that anything after X is being put elsewhere but that's just.... splitting hairs?

Could there be a better term? Possibly. I don't think move, is it. Because honestly what you all are thinking is move isn't the same to me. When I use split I intentionally want to separate the posts I choose and place them into a completely new conversation therefore "split" the conversation. I'm not "moving" the conversation. I'm taking the conversation that has derailed and split it to a new conversation that requires a different point of view which is the point of "Split" if you use it for other purposes or in other ways how is that the responsibility of IPS?

[Elbmek]

Well, well. Strange things happening. As I said earlier I followed Pauls instructions and change Split to Move. Not only did it work properly from then on, but  I have been cleaning and moving a lot of posts most of today and making the forum even more informative from the home page point of view and have noticed one thing:

All my move button are back to 'normal'. I thought about it and realised it could be a linkage error in the software. If you can understand that? I don't know how to really explain this but everything I mentioned up top, have all gone and now 'move' and 'to' are beautifully back to normal. I can only assume the word 'move' in the software still linked to 'moving' and not 'splitting' ?????  I think when the script for 'split' was added, the script for 'move' wasnt. So when I changed to Move, it changed to the other instruction -great eh? I have moved dozens of posts today old and new and never seen the previous software that followed on from 'split' - delighted! 

 

In image below, when I click on the (what was Split in bottom bar) now Move; this is what I get, which is what I am used to pre upgrade. As you can see its simplicity itself to move a post(s).  

Edited October 14, 2020 by Elbmek

[CoffeeCake]

The reason you're seeing Move there is because you're looking at threads (collections of posts), and not at posts within a thread.

The behavior you were expecting is exactly how it works for moving threads. Imagine a thread about military uniforms in a forum that's supposed to be about military vehicles, instead of the military dress forum. You could move the thread into the correct forum (and optionally, leave a link in the forum the thread was moved from that will be erased in 30 days to help folks find it).

The hierarchy, from smallest to largest, is as follows:

• Posts (what I'm typing in now)
• Threads (collections of posts, in our case here called "Moving a Post" that contains all of our posts)
• Forums (collections of threads, in our case here, this thread is currently in the "Feedback and Ideas" forum, which is a child of Sales, Feedback, and Information category-type forum)

You can move forums from within the ACP. This works by dragging and dropping forums in and out of parent and children containers.

You can move threads from one forum to another, anywhere within the hierarchy of forums you've created from the ACP. Out of the box, this is referred to "Move" and is what you had in your screenshot above.

You can move posts from one thread to another (or create a brand new thread consisting of the posts you're moving). Out of the box, this is referred to as "Split" and is what we were looking at earlier where you wanted to move a single post or subset of posts from a single thread into another.

Hope that helps!

Edited October 14, 2020 by Paul E.
A bit more on moving.

[Elbmek]

All posts have come from A to B; not A&B to C. I understand about moving forums within ACP, and have done so today. And created forums and slotted them into place. I created Modern Comms because I wanted to collate psos in my computer forum into their own, I selected some posts in Computers and moved them in one go. I could not do this until I 'removed' split.

 

Anyway, thanks paul for all your work and time.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Elbmek