Need help getting CycleChat up to speed

[Fishfish0001]

Another thing you might consider is shrinking the size of your images, or even using sprites (if you know how to/want to).

Yahoo Smush is a good way to see how much smaller your images can get.

[Graeme S.]

First thing I immediately suggest is that you optimize all the PNGs. You can use this simple little program here.

http://psydk.org/PngOptimizer.php

[blair]

Yes, I'm going down that route ... after polling my membership it seems a lot of them are not liking the new skin and want something plainer, simpler ... "like we had it before" ... lol

I really think you are chasing your tail regarding server optimization. Sure you can squeeze out a couple of tenths worth of performance, but the problem seems to be your forum skin. It looks heavy, and it is heavy.

Using yslow I got the following when comparing the skins:

New skin:
Empty cache
HTTP Requests - 64
Total Weight - 220.8K
1 HTML/Text 60.3K
5 JavaScript File 68.3K
2 Stylesheet File 14.8K
18 CSS Image 15.7K
37 Image 61.2K
1 Favicon 0.3K

Primed cache:
HTTP Requests - 61
Total Weight - 99.0K
1 HTML/Text 60.3K
3 JavaScript File 0.0K
1 Stylesheet File 0.8K
18 CSS Image 9.5K
37 Image 28.3K
1 Favicon 0.0K

Old Skin:
Empty Cache
HTTP Requests - 29
Total Weight - 93.9K
1 HTML/Text 10.0K
8 JavaScript File 49.9K
2 Stylesheet File 6.9K
2 CSS Image 7.4K
16 Image 19.6K

Primed Cache
HTTP Requests - 29
Total Weight - 16.3K
1 HTML/Text 10.0K
8 JavaScript File 0.0K
2 Stylesheet File 6.3K
2 CSS Image 0.0K
16 Image 0.01K

You likely already know this but an empty cache is someone's first page load. A primed cache is subsequent page loads. Compare the size differences! vB3 was very efficeient. An upgrade to vB4 would have resulted in longer page loads as well, call it progress I guess.

In an era of broadband internet, 99K is not a lot. It's not just the load time, but the look-and-feel that seems heavy compared to the old. I bet if you dedicated all your free waking hours (or hired someone) to develop a skin that looks as much like your old one as possible, you'd alleviate the vast majority of complaints from your avid (and most vocal) users. Yes, the site is performing measurably slower, but at a more basic level, it's human nature to resist change.

Edit: For giggles, I ran yslow on vbulletin.com forum:
Empty:
HTTP Requests - 64
Total Weight - 339.9K
1 HTML/Text 17.3K
11 JavaScript File 120.5K
3 Stylesheet File 26.6K
1 IFrame 1.4K
11 CSS Image 26.7K
37 Image 147.2K

Primed:
HTTP Requests - 61
Total Weight - 46.0K
1 HTML/Text 17.3K
11 JavaScript File 27.2K
1 IFrame 1.4K
11 CSS Image 0.0K
37 Image 0.0K

..and here:
Empty:
HTTP Requests - 55
Total Weight - 276.6K
1 HTML/Text 60.8K
5 JavaScript File 104.5K
2 Stylesheet File 14.2K
12 CSS Image 5.3K
34 Image 90.3K
1 Favicon 1.4K

Primed:
HTTP Requests - 13
Total Weight - 60.8K
1 HTML/Text 60.8K
2 JavaScript File 0.0K
9 Image 0.0K
1 Favicon 0.0K

[Clickfinity]

Yes, I'm going to focus on the skin now - it seems the radical change of layout is as much responsible as the change in software ... if not a little more so ... :wink:

I'm also looking at using FCGI for PHP too ... just in case I can squeeze a little more speed out ... lol

[Yup - seems to have helped reduce server load, and despite a short pause after clicking, page display times are faster (checked with Firebug). Overall, much better than before, so I'll leave the server alone for a bit now and get a light, compact, fast skin put together - should get people back on board ... :thumbsup:]

Thanks,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

First thing I immediately suggest is that you optimize all the PNGs. You can use this simple little program here.

[url="http://psydk.org/PngOptimizer.php"]http://psydk.org/PngOptimizer.php[/url]

Thanks for this ... good tip ... :D

I ran all the PNG's through it, and whilst it was able to compress most of them a tiny bit further, the overall saving across the 400+ images was a couple of hundred k.

The best saving (shaving?) was 3k off the logo PNG - not much, but over thousands of requests it's a decent saving.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

Blair, thanks too for the test figures and your analysis ... very interesting and a good illustration of the difference a skin can make, both visually and physically.

I like the work Ehren has done - it is a great looking theme, and I feel I got value for money and a very good service - I just hadn't expected so many people to find it hard to get on with (there are a heck of a lot more than on the poll).

Like you say, people don't like change, and I've changed the whole shebang in one fell swoop so it's to be expected that some people won't be happy, but I think getting the "look and feel" reverted to "how it was" would go a good way towards making those people feel "included" again.

Cheers,
Shaun

PS. Thanks for the help and advice, it's very much appreciated.

[Clickfinity]

Oh, and can a mod please add this in front of the topic title [NO LONGER] - thanks ... :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Graeme S.]

Cycle, images are just the first step. Obviously there is a lot more you can do. As you suggested yourself, users often find "sudden change" very hard to deal with. However, perhaps look at your new registration stats and see how those look.

The new skin is definitely a lot "heavier" than the old one (although it's very nice!), so perhaps it's just a matter of optimizing as much as possible here and there. I can try to have a look when I have time and see where you can make optimizations (shrink CSS, for example).

It's the little bits that make the difference, as they eventually add up.

[Clickfinity]

I tweaked MySQL again last night and made a small breakthrough by configuring Apache to run php through FastCGI - it's trimmed page loading times, and reduced the server load. I'm not seeing any 3+ server load averages today, which is good.

The skin is my next project - once I've got it "looking" similar to the old layout, I'll take the same "little bits at a time" approach to cutting it down so it loads optimally.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[stoo2000]

It *only* seems to happen when loading a forum view, ie. http://www.cyclechat.net/forum/39-the-welcome-mat/

As such it's probably barely even contributing to any load issues you have. The load issues sound like a badly configured SQL server to me.

When the server load is high, you need to be logged into the box, with top running, and checking what's eating the CPU time, whether it's Apache or MySQLd.

Yep, it's only in the forum view, and according to Firebug adds around a second to the page load whilst it might not affect your server performance, it may give your users the impression of being slow.


(for above comment)

There's also a link to an url that's not correct, whilst not usually a problem it's hanging around for ~900ms waiting for it.

http://www.cyclechat.net/forum/7-beginners-and-riding/#{img}

[surinp3]

Made small test on my favourite speedcomparing site.

[Clickfinity]

Thanks again for the feedback. (surinp3, what is the URL for that site?)

I've thought about this some more and decided to commission a "look-a-like" skin that approximates my old site where possible.

I think this is the key to getting people back to the site, and hopefully if the new skin can be optimised, those figures can be brought more into line with the old vB site.

I was going to attempt the redesign myself, but it'll be quicker and better getting a professional to do it and I'll hopefully get some of those missing regulars back ... :thumbsup:

Isn't owning/running a forum fun ... (w00t)

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Matt]

Hi Shaun,

I love the site and I much prefer the newer skin, but of course that is just a personal preference, I've had a poke around and it seems to be pretty snappy now. I did a quick GZIP test and the old vB is sending over 9kb data when gzipped and the new IP.Board is sending 18kb gzipped so the difference in actual mark-up is negligible.

Looking through the source, it seems as though you have all the right stuff switched on. Can you check your DB to see if "sessions" table is set to MEMORY or HEAP? If it is not, then you may find a speed boost.

Also, your robots.txt has "Crawl-Delay: 10" - might be worth tweaking that to 20 seconds to see if that improves things. Spiders *love* IP.Board mark-up and will suck a site dry if given half a chance. Keep an eye in your logs. There are some naughty spiders out there that will ignore a robots.txt

Transition is never easy and some people hate change. Usually sticking with it and riding it through is better in the long run that appearing indecisive and switching back. Even if you switch back you will *have* to upgrade to something else at some point. vB 3 was good software but after a few more PHP and MySQL updates it'll be obsolete.

Just a few thoughts. :D

[Ryan R]

Transition is never easy and some people hate change. Usually sticking with it and riding it through is better in the long run that appearing indecisive and switching back.

I tend to agree with this.

Your new skin at CycleChat looks phenomenal - much better than what you had previously. There is always resistance to change, and you need to be ready and prepared to handle that. This doesn't mean that you should give in to all of your user's demands and never change. It's in the best interest of your community to constantly improve your forums, and this will sometimes mean "out with the old, in with the new". There have been times when websites that I frequent introduce a new interface or feature that rocks my world (Facebook and Gmail come to mind). Initially I hate it because I have to relearn how to navigate/use the website, but after a while, I realize that I enjoy the new stuff much more than the old. The only reason I hated it as first was because it was different, but it just took some time to get used to.

I would press your members a little bit. Force them to endure a little bit of pain as your forums change. I imagine that it won't take long for them to change their opinion and start to like love the new look and feel. If you turn back on yourself and immediately change everything now to make it look like your old forums, you're handcuffing yourself by not allowing your forums to ever progress. Don't throw your new skin out the window, it looks awesome. I understand the need for a lightweight skin, some members will want that for very valid reasons, so by all means create one. However, do not make it your default skin, but instead just a secondary option for your members.

[Clickfinity]

I'm NOT going back to vB, don't worry ... I've calmed down now ... lol :blink:

Sessions table as HEAP was one of the earlier changes I made , so that side of things is taken care of, thanks.

After twiddling around under the bonnet and with the help of those on this thread, I've managed to speed things up somewhat, and would hope the new skin - cut down and optimised, will complete the package and get the forums running lightning fast again.

The members poll identified that quite a few are not liking the new layout, and TBH, I can't blame them too much - they've had it one particular way for 5 years and I've gone and changed not only all the controls and functions etc., but jumbled it all up and thrown up a really strong theme into the bargain to try and sift through to find things. Pretty full-on change to do in one go ... :blush:

Whilst looks are important and present your site as professionsal, serious, and well taken care of - members and content are the key to forums, and I don't want to write-off people who've been with CC for 5 odd years for the sake of how it looks.

The new "looking-something-like-the-old-forums" skin will give them at least some sense of familiarity and make them feel more like tackling the site controls and getting used to the changes. Once everyone's had a good long period of adjustment, I can review the "look" again and maybe make smaller, gradual changes in the future to bring it around to something bolder and more colourful.

I'd just like to thank everyone for their positive feedback and helpful hints and tips, and I would hope that someone in a similar situation in the future might come across this thread and at least be able to take something away from it that helps them.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[MissNinja]

However, do not make it your default skin, but instead just a secondary option for your members.

This. Very very much this.

Your new skin is gorgeous- leave that up for the new members just coming in and let others choose the classic view if they want. But I definitely think you're more likely to bring in users with the current look than something like the old. ;)

[Biker.GA]

Something I did immediately for my users upon converting was install more than one "look". The default look is just that. The default IPB theme. I then installed a couple of other skins so the more advanced users could change the way things look on their end. And while many of the younger users will embrace changes, including those that go to a bolder look, older users want things that are easy on the eyes as well as easy to read. One of the things that turns me off quicker than anything on a site is having to really work at reading what's on it due to the theme or style used.

Always remember that what looks good to you, may be a huge turnoff for a good chunk of your users. Tastes vary, and I've found it to be a good rule of thumb to stay on the more "conservative" side of things when making visual changes to the site.

[Matt]

I have updated the topic title to reflect the change of direction for this topic. :)

[Clickfinity]

Thanks Matt ... that looks better ... :thumbsup:

[Fishfish0001]

People always hate change, heck even I do. It will definatly take some time for them to calm down and see how much nicer the site is, but they will get used to it.

I think adding a simple skin will work fine for them, and they will keep coming back. Just let them know that you care about their opinions and that you are trying to make it easier/faster/more enjoyable for them. :)

[Clickfinity]

Just a small update - the reason I wasn't seeing slow queries was because I didn't have the log file.

I'd expect it would be created if it didn't exist, by after restaring mysqld at the command line I was notified the file didn't exist so logging wouldn't take place.

I've now created the file (and given it permissions to match the other mysql logs) and slow queries are being logged ... :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

I've also managed to pin down what is causing the page to load twice - Topic Hover Preview mod. When I disable it, the second request goes away.

However, I cannot turn it off otherwise my members will string me up ... lol - but it's good to know what's going on, then you can deal with them.

I'll PM the mod creator and see if there's an update.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

As an addendum, I upgraded the Topic Hover Preview mod today which has further reduced load (queries are more optimised in the latest release) so things running a bit smoother now.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

You may benefit from updating to the latest Apache 2.2 and PHP 5.2.14.

I have just noticed one thing though in Firebug, Something is loading the same page again after it's been loaded once.

[img]

[/img]

Just had word from the author of the Topic Hover Preview mod and it seems that a non-relative path reference is causing this when you FURLs turned on - which I have.

He's going to update the mod so that will hopefully get rid of this bug and further increase page loading speed.

Feels like it's back up to speed again.

Thanks to everyone for your help and patience.

Cheers,
Shaun :D

[Clickfinity]

Made small test on my favourite speedcomparing site.

I wondered how you'd compared them like that, but finally found it:

http://whichloadsfaster.com/

Great tool for looking at how your site compares to your competitors too !!! :D