Line Spacing

[SJ77]

this is a test. I am now going to hit enter

I see a double line break but I will have to see what the code looks like

I wonder if it will be wrapped in <p> or just double <br>

 

as marcher pointed out, I stand corrected.

<div class="ipsType_normal ipsType_richText ipsContained" data-controller="core.front.core.lightboxedImages" itemprop="text" data-role="commentContent">
<p>this is a test. I am now going to hit enter</p>
<p>I see a double line break but I will have to see what the code looks like</p>
<p>I wonder if it will be wrapped in <p> or just double <br></p>
</div>

 

[SJ77]

Oh dear,
Sorry guys, this clearly demonstrations your both swimming in waters too deep for you both to be in and don't realise it yet.

We're not holding teaching courses for this stuff here.

If this seems rude, sorry, but I'm pulling out because it's becoming a waste of time explaining.

​

 

[Cyrem]

​

 

​Bye, but I'm glad you noticed your invalid assumption... maybe this might get somewhere after all. But I'm going to leave the others to explain as they have more time than me.

[Cemmos]

@wimg, you're mentioning logic in your post. There's also logic behind markup, which is one of the large points we're trying to establish here. The solutions of using old methods should not be used because they're incorrect ways of marking up HTML. In essence, the previous solutions are illogical to use.

I completely understand why one might want to use line breaks over paragraphs, and it can be controlled. There was mention earlier, as well, that we shouldn't follow the likes of WordPress or Microsoft Word. In fact, we should. We need to practice standardizing the internet, not bastardizing it.

There are other solutions to this small issue: install a different text editor, use CSS styling, or utilize the technology at your fingertips. An extra key press should really be a nonissue. Instead of going backward with technology, we should work with it and use the various solutions that have been posted in this topic. On mobiles, it's an understandable issue. There are more problems on mobile than just the editor though. Things like that will have to be worked out over time.

[SJ77]

 

 

I can buy into the argument that this is the way technology is moving and we should be on board not going against the grain. However, I still don't understand why a double break is better in the first place. Let's just assume the whole world thinks hitting enter should = double break; Can someone explain why that is better? To me it's just annoying.

[wimg]

​Please explain your logic then – but don’t base your logic on what you are used to from a typewriter. That’s a habit, not logic. As I have said before: the concept of a paragraph was established hundreds of years ago and it is logical and useful today as it was 300 years ago. It’s the typewriter who broke that logic because of purely technical restrictions of the machine itself.

​First of all, <ENTER>, the representation of  CR-LF, was invented as part of a digital communications protocol, that is what it stood for originally.<ENTER> was the key to created that code, a single character in the ASCII-set. Somehow, this code seems to have been allocated to creating a paragraph, and yes, on the web it now has gotten a different interpretation as a result.

A line is part of a paragraph, therefore hierarchically, it is subordinate to a paragraph. A paragraph may consist of more than one line, it is a set of line(s). A line is a set of words, etc. Therefore, indicating the end of a paragraph and the start of a new one, should not be allocated to the end of a new line and the start of the next - that is what has happened, and that is what is incredibly confusing. And it gets confounded by the fact that a paragraph may have a different styling than the lines in a paragraph. It became very clear here in the message editor of ICS4 what this causes. That is why it is a point of discussion here.

And the difference between the behaviour of a line and a paragraph may be a natural thing to those who work with the concepts on a daily basis, but I can assure you that it isn't clear at all to those who are average users. Many that I have met are not at all happy with the consequences of the current, fashionable stylings that come with it. I have reset many styles for users over time these last 4 or 5 years.

As to typewriters: I have worked with many which allowed to have a different style for paragraphs than for ordinary line breaks. The hierarchy there was as intended, IMO. You had to do some extra stuff in order to break a paragraph other than with a few line breaks.

I have never said a paragraph is not a useful concept or structure. I am only saying I want better control over its creation and its styling.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

@wimg, you're mentioning logic in your post. There's also logic behind markup, which is one of the large points we're trying to establish here. The solutions of using old methods should not be used because they're incorrect ways of marking up HTML. In essence, the previous solutions are illogical to use.

I completely understand why one might want to use line breaks over paragraphs, and it can be controlled. There was mention earlier, as well, that we shouldn't follow the likes of WordPress or Microsoft Word. In fact, we should. We need to practice standardizing the internet, not bastardizing it.

There are other solutions to this small issue: install a different text editor, use CSS styling, or utilize the technology at your fingertips. An extra key press should really be a nonissue. Instead of going backward with technology, we should work with it and use the various solutions that have been posted in this topic. On mobiles, it's an understandable issue. There are more problems on mobile than just the editor though. Things like that will have to be worked out over time.

​I have no problems with markup, I use markup all the time, and styling. And I always do my utmost to stick to the correct way of doing things when I do. Neither have I said we should go backwards. I do think, however, that using <ENTER> to create a new paragraph, is not going forward. And regarding WP and MS, what I meant, is their styling. I don't like to be forced into a straightjacket, and that is how it feels. But that is just a personal feeling, I will get over that and find a fix anyway.

However, the problem is with the user out there, who can't do that, or isn't capable of doing that. Especially the mobile user. That is my main beef.

Kind regards, Wim

[opentype]

​First of all, <ENTER>, the representation of  CR-LF, was invented as part of a digital communications protocol, that is what it stood for originally.

Yes, that was when computers were used for nothing else than programming code. Obviously when coding, you just want to get to the next line and this is what apps made for coding do. Programming code doesn’t have or need paragraphs. This however has nothing do to with writing text, meant to be read by others — may it be in a book or in an online article or forum post. In these cases you create structured text content: paragraphs, headlines, lists, image descriptions … There is hardly any reason for line-breaks in such a use.

In fact, in my job as a designer, the first thing I do when I get texts from clients is to remove all those multiple line breaks, tab stops and so on. They are there by mistake. It’s just wrong to style your text through structure, as I have said multiple times now. If you want space before the next headline, you don’t insert two line-breaks before every headline. You don’t insert any line-break at all. The headline just directly follows the last paragraph and you only assign a “top margin” to the headline in your CSS, your Word paragraph styles or wherever the styling is defined. 

 

And it gets confounded by the fact that a paragraph may have a different styling than the lines in a paragraph.

Of course! Any distinct structural element, may it be a list element, a headline or a paragraph have their own set of styling options. That’s an advantage. In your “typewriter world” where everything is just line-breaks you can’t have that. You don't have any inherent structure in the markup, because you have no markup. Note that properly structured text might still be displayed as if there were just line-breaks. But your line-break only text doesn’t offer any choices. You can’t apply any styling to the structural elements, because the are not separated. They are all just lines. 

 

 

I have never said a paragraph is not a useful concept or structure. I am only saying I want better control over its creation and its styling.

​And like I explained over and over including my last paragraph, the best possible way to have full control over the styling IS through proper markup, and that means: creating a new paragraph when someone hits Return. Only this solution gives us all the options for the visual display: Both the little space you want for your site, as well as the larger space others might prefer. 

You say markup and paragraphs are useful, but still want line-breaks as standard action for hitting Return. The latter makes the former impossible. When hitting Return just creates line-breaks, how should a Word or online forum user even create a proper paragraph with proper markup? That’s not possible. And please don’t say two line-breaks make a proper paragraph …

 

P.S. Interestingly, looking at your posts above, you actually execute what I am preaching. You write simple paragraphs. You combine several sentences to one though and then you hit Return. You don’t even put in line-breaks, because they are neither useful nor necessary. The only thing you dislike are the default paragraph margins. But as forum owner, you have full control over that anyway. Arguing about that is as pointless as arguing about the default font of the IPS suite. 

[ABGenc]

 

You say markup and paragraphs are useful, but still want line-breaks as standard action for hitting Return. The latter makes the former impossible. When hitting Return just creates line-breaks, how should a Word or online forum user even create a proper paragraph with proper markup? That’s not possible. And please don’t say two line-breaks make a proper paragraph …

​That was what I was wondering all the way through reading the discussion. If we reject the current form and return to Enter = Line-break, there would be others complaining not having an option for a paragraph when typing. 

Personally I really enjoyed the topic and learned from it. Thanks all for pointing this subject and sharing the knowledge..

[Vikestart]

I can buy into the argument that this is the way technology is moving and we should be on board not going against the grain. However, I still don't understand why a double break is better in the first place. Let's just assume the whole world thinks hitting enter should = double break; Can someone explain why that is better? To me it's just annoying.

​It's NOT a double line break, it's a new paragraph. Double line break =/= new paragraph.

It's important because each paragraph of text is then wrapped inside the <p> element, which allows custom styling. It's most common to have margin-bottom:15px; for parapgraphs to increase readability, but this can easily be removed if you don't want that.

If you hit Shift + Enter, you'll make a soft line break which does not create a new <p> element, but puts <br> inside the current one.

When it comes to the question of which function that should use Enter and which one that should use Shift + Enter, the answer is simple. New paragraphs are used far more frequently than soft line breaks, and will therefore have the fastest keybind. The opposite would be completely illogical.

[Charles]

It's also for accessibility. By wrapping things in proper paragraph tags you are telling the browser "new paragraph now!" which, in turn, is telling that to search engines, screen readers, and so on.

We chose to implement a certain amount of space between each paragraph using CSS that we though looked nice. You can certainly change that if, for some reason, you like your paragraphs all squished together.

[chilihead]

I understand the double spacing for more formal posts, like if writing an article, etc.

But my forum users just make quick informal posts or replies, and the double spacing is overkill. At least for my site. Is there a way to bring back single spacing for posts?

Thanks!

[Lindy]

I understand the double spacing for more formal posts, like if writing an article, etc.

But my forum users just make quick informal posts or replies, and the double spacing is overkill. At least for my site. Is there a way to bring back single spacing for posts?

Thanks!

​This is default CKEditor behavior, but if you prefer the old style, please see: http://docs.ckeditor.com/#!/api/CKEDITOR.config-cfg-skin and search the page for enterMode for details. 

[chilihead]

Cheers!

[opentype]

… or just change the CSS to visually reduce the space between the lines.

The default behaviour of adding paragraphs instead of line-breaks is the right way to do it. I wouldn’t recommend changing that. 

[chilihead]

… or just change the CSS to visually reduce the space between the lines.

The default behaviour of adding paragraphs instead of line-breaks is the right way to do it. I wouldn’t recommend changing that. 

​Then to make an actual line break wouldn't you have to hit it a bunch of times to make it look like one?

So this issue came up when the maker of the editor changed it, not IP?

My users don't know about the Shift+Enter. And they post on FB a lot too as do a lot of people today, which single spaces. This is just going to upset my members. I'm not one of those people that rallies against change. Members need to get used to certain things, but I'd really like to see the Enter key single space.

They don't format much on my site. They post and go. And the replies. Replies are even more informal. It's really going to make replies look like book reports.

[opentype]

So this issue came up when the maker of the editor changed it, not IP?

​Two things are at play: the structure underneath (the HTML code) and the styling (the CSS). 

You can have your editor just create line-breaks like a typewriter, or you can have it create paragraphs by default, which can have different margins than the default linespace within a paragraph. 

Using paragraphs is the superior way. So if you don’t like the large line-space, my recommendation is to just reduce the margins of the paragraphs. Then you get the look you want, but you still keep the flexible paragraph system underneath. 

[SJ77]

​Then to make an actual line break wouldn't you have to hit it a bunch of times to make it look like one?

So this issue came up when the maker of the editor changed it, not IP?

My users don't know about the Shift+Enter. And they post on FB a lot too as do a lot of people today, which single spaces. This is just going to upset my members. I'm not one of those people that rallies against change. Members need to get used to certain things, but I'd really like to see the Enter key single space.

They don't format much on my site. They post and go. And the replies. Replies are even more informal. It's really going to make replies look like book reports.

​double breaks with each "enter" push are super annoying. It's annoying here on this forum. Not much we can do. However,  "Shift" + "Enter" will give you what you want.  People better get used to it.

[chilihead]

​Two things are at play: the structure underneath (the HTML code) and the styling (the CSS). 

You can have your editor just create line-breaks like a typewriter, or you can have it create paragraphs by default, which can have different margins than the default linespace within a paragraph. 

Using paragraphs is the superior way. So if you don’t like the large line-space, my recommendation is to just reduce the margins of the paragraphs. Then you get the look you want, but you still keep the flexible paragraph system underneath. 

​So are you saying in CSS cut this value in half, and it will act like it does in v3? Or is it not that simple? I will install a test version soon myself but this info would be great. Thanks!

[opentype]

​So are you saying in CSS cut this value in half, and it will act like it does in v3? Or is it not that simple?

​Yes. You just need to set the extra spacing around paragraphs to zero. 

[chilihead]

Very nice, thanks for taking the time.

Now it's just... keep it as is and let them adjust, or edit... ahhh choices.

[SJ77]

Very nice, thanks for taking the time.

Now it's just... keep it as is and let them adjust, or edit... ahhh choices.

​Keep it as is, it's industry standard now. Take the path of least resistance. I am one of the few that thinks this is super lame but It's useless for me to argue. Even if I win here on IP the rest of the world is already on board. Sorry, to take away hope.