What do you think of 3.2?

[.Ian]

I want the option to have a global sidebar so we can view it on forums and topics, not just the board index.

Hope to see this one day :)

Was probably the most missed item having converted from UBB.Threads, as we find many members stay firmly in their own forum and do not venture anywhere near the index page. I am sure if I put girls on the forum index page nobody would notice LOL

[• Jay •]

Hope to see this one day :smile:

Was probably the most missed item having converted from UBB.Threads, as we find many members stay firmly in their own forum and do not venture anywhere near the index page. I am sure if I put girls on the forum index page nobody would notice LOL

Seriously? That's some pretty serious addiction.

[.Ian]

Seriously? That's some pretty serious addiction.

Yes. We run several forums for non league football clubs in the UK - the problem is people tend to stay in their own club forum and do not even visit the general forums. In fact their use has ground to a halt under IPB, so people are not finding them. I would say they get between 1 & 2% of their previous traffic! Anything that will join these all together is worth it's weight in gold.

[Dreamlander]

I don't like the new version because ips took away many features from v.3.1.4, it seems to me like a downgrade.
It was fair to keep those features and to give the possibility to admins to customise the behaviour of their boards, with option enable/disable for those features removed.

I don't think I will upgrade very soon, I'll wait hooks for those features removed.

[Matt]

I don't like the new version because ips took away many features from v.3.1.4, it seems to me like a downgrade.

I honestly think you and some others need to take a moment, get some air and then go and read all the blogs on 3.2 before you conclude that 3.1.4 is a 'downgrade' because we removed a few icons.

[Dreamlander]

before you conclude that 3.1.4 is a 'downgrade' because we removed a few icons.

It Is not only about a few icons.
From my point of view it is because I can't use no more those features and my community also.This doesn't mean that, for all people is a downgrade.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not telling now v.3.2 is a failure because of missing them.
I'm aware that 3.2 must be more eficient than v.3.1.4 but I think it was a bad move removing some features from v.3.1.4

[Matt]

When you speak in generic terms, you do speak for your perception of 'everyone'.

It's not a nitpick, but these are two very different phrases:

"3.2.0 is a downgrade!"
"3.2.0 is a downgrade for my site!"

The former implies that you perceive 3.2.0 to be a let down for everyone whereas the latter implies that you feel it would be a downgrade for your sites specific needs.

Honestly though, I think you'll be surprised at how much your members will love it once they've made the small adjustment.

[LAC]

I think its great.

[Biker.GA]

Honestly though, I think you'll be surprised at how much your members will love it once they've made the small adjustment.

And there lies the rub. Small adjustment? It has taken a YEAR for my users to get fairly comfortable with the change from vBulletin to IPB. These are not "small" changes, nor would I expect these kind of changes in a minor revision release.

And before Charles jumps in about "not getting hung up on version numbers", I'd suggest looking at virtually every other software company out there and what is usually considered minor version releases vs major releases and the changes that occur with them. This was not a minor update. This was a major revision I would expect from a major upgrade (ie, 3.x to 4.x).

You want specifics? I'll give you specifics. The default skin is STILL geared towards "younger eyes". It's difficult to find things, and one shouldn't have to rely on something to "magically appear" in order to perform a function. What did you guys do? Go look at Xenforo, go "ooooooooooh SHINY!" and copy some stuff? If we had been that impressed with the stuff Kier was doing, we'd have gone with that package.

Bah. You do what you need to do. However, if the software continues on in the current direction that it's taking, I suspect I won't be the only one looking for a different solution.

[Rikki]

You want specifics? I'll give you specifics. The default skin is STILL geared towards "younger eyes". It's difficult to find things, and one shouldn't have to rely on something to "magically appear" in order to perform a function. What did you guys do? Go look at Xenforo, go "ooooooooooh SHINY!" and copy some stuff? If we had been that impressed with the stuff Kier was doing, we'd have gone with that package.

With all due respect, we are quite capable of making improvements off our own back, and not because someone else has done it. Sure, xF came out and is 'shiny'. IPB 3.x has been around for (including development) approaching 4 years. It was time for an overhaul. It's simply coincidence that xF came out too. We would have made the changes anyway because that's where the modern web is going.

That's what we're influenced by. Modern web applications. Hundreds of millions of people use Facebook, Twitter, Last.fm, Wordpress, and so on. There's some conventions and styles that work because people see them every day.

I appreciate your needs are different, and I'm sorry if you feel that out of the box we aren't up to meeting them. But that's exactly why our software is highly extensible, skinnable and so on. You might groan at once again being told that you can make changes in your skin, but please look at it from our point of view - if we met your needs, someone else would come along and tell us we're doing it wrong (and indeed that's exactly what they did with 3.x - see the next paragraph). We cannot possibly meet all needs by default. (Set up a stock Wordpress install - it probably does very little of what you need. That's why it, too, is extensible).

Feedback on the original 3.x experience was fairly unanimous, even from the many people who love it - it was a little clunky, quite dark, confusing, and just didn't feel modern. That's party because it's 4 years old. So we've worked based on that feedback to make 3.2 what it is. Other than a handful of people making their voices heard, the feedback has been outstanding - so we must be pleasing a lot of people.

If your needs dictate that you need something done differently, that is why we're so extensible. I'm sure you'll be able to resolve it and make it work for you while still having the excellent foundation that 3.2 provides.

And regarding version numbering, would it matter if we called it 4.0? Would your feedback change? I'm not entirely sure how 'major update 3.2', 'major update 4.0' etc. would change things. It's just a number. The core hasn't changed, so that's why it's still '3'.

[.Ian]

Biker.GA - I am not saying that all your points are not valid, but I believe from another post you are an alternative contact for your forum. What does the licence holder think? Not sure who (s)he is, but I am sure IPS would welcome their input as well :)

[Aisha]

Ultimately, I don't understand what is wrong with IPS adding those features back in and letting the people who will complain about them delete them. It is a lot easier to delete something than it is to add something in.

Anyway, I'm not upgrading to IPB 3.2 because my boss likes to think backwards and wants to convert the site to vbulletin 3.8. Something about IPB not being compatible with the server. Whatever. :angel:

I've decided to just start a different forum because I enjoy IPB too much. I believe that 3.2 will work amazingly well for a brand new forum. The problem for you, Biker.GA, (and myself if I wasn't being forced to go backwards :frantics: ) is that we're not looking forward to our user's reaction to the upgrade. Lets make one thing perfectly clear here. You can not win with IPS. They are stubborn and refuse to change their minds on even the most tiniest of details. Did you see how long it took and how many people had to complain until IPS finally added pagination to VNC? And this fancy little emoticon dropdown..did you see how many people had to complain about there not being one until it was finally added? Just give up. Stop trying to change IPS to suit your needs and instead try and change your approach. IPS has a goal in mind which is to move forward along with the rest of the web. Your goal is to stay in place. Your goal (and mine - though it's not really a goal it's more of a preference) is to keep things the way they are. Lets remember though that our concerns are fueled by our desire to keep our own individual communities healthy and active. And that is why it's important to focus now on your approach to 3.2 because you've tried to talk to IPS and you will never get through to them.

First of all you need to evaluate your community and determine whether or not you really need 3.2. Lets keep in mind that lots of forums are still on 2.3.6 and who can forget the countless forums that refuse to upgrade to vbulletin 4? You will not be at a loss if you do not upgrade. However, if you do choose to upgrade then there's a method I suggest you follow.

This is what I would've done if I wasn't moving backwards ( :frantics: ). First and foremost, I acknowledge that my community does not like change. At all. There was a huge backlash when I upgraded from IPB 2 to IPB 3. Similarly, it seems you had one when you moved from vbulletin to IPB. However, we should take advantage of these experiences and learn from them. Ask yourself, what were people upset about? What could you have done better? Just how bad was the reaction? For me I realize now that the reaction was initially pretty bad, but within two weeks people get over everything. The change from 3.1 to 3.2 is really just a matter of adjusting to something new. If you be patient then you will be fine. I believe that the best approach is to be open with your community. Humans in general are very stupid and simple minded. If you explain to them your plans to upgrade to IPB 3.2 then they will be happy that you're including them in your discussion. Additionally if you were to take things a step further and go into excruciating detail on the pros and cons of an upgrade (relative to your community) and let the community make the decision on whether or not you should upgrade then your community will be happy with you. As admins, we may think we know what our users want, but really the best approach is to directly ask them. A good example of this is IPS. They think that they know what we want, but if they'd asked us if we wanted them to remove *insertfeatureofchoicehere* then they probably wouldn't have removed it. :ahappy: Don't make the same mistake that IPS is making with customers like you. Use this as an opportunity to get involved with your community and make them feel like their opinion is valued. For some reason forum members like it when they think they have a say in what direction the forum goes in.

Really, this is the best you can do now. I think after a week of this you should come to realize that you'll never get IPS to change to suit your needs so instead just change yourself. And never forget that there are indeed customers here who agree and sympathize with you and are capable of restoring the features you need. Already there are 3 or 4 hooks that are there just for the sake of restoring 3.1 features. Now, IPS believes that since people are making hooks for the features that they don't need to add those features back in. Well, that's because IPS is stupid. But whatever, IPS is stubborn so let them think that. The rest of the community though is still here to help I'm sure.

And if there's anyone who's a server expert who wants to contact me and save me from vbulletin 3.8 then please do so. :frantics:

[Hexsplosions]

It's crap, I hate it, I don't like it!!!! - Whoops, for second I had a nightmare I was a vB customer. :rofl:

User reactions when moving to a new software version will always be mixed. Some will love it, some will hate it, others will sit on the fence and think "this feels nice".

The trick is the manage the change with your users. Don't just upgrade, start drip feeding them information about the new released and get feedback beforehand. You may not be able to change things based on their feedback, but having that two-way dialogue is, sometimes, all they want. You'll be able to discuss the changes with them, find the benefits of the change, and move on.

For instance, I already know that some of my users are very 'anti social networking'. IPB comes with an abundance of tools designed to work with the likes of Twitter and Facebook, and I intend to utilise them all. My trick will be to introduce them to the forum having already told them it's going to happen, given them time to have their say and get used to the idea. Then, on upgrade day... Voilá!

Upgrading software will ALWAYS present challenges with an existing member base.

[Aisha]

And if all else fails just ban everyone. That's why the secret feature is going to be the ban everyone button. (:

[Hexsplosions]

And if all else fails just ban everyone. That's why the secret feature is going to be the ban everyone button. (:

I want this. NOW.

[rsyvarth]

Ultimately, I don't understand what is wrong with IPS adding those features back in and letting the people who will complain about them delete them. It is a lot easier to delete something than it is to add something in.

etc etc etc

And if there's anyone who's a server expert who wants to contact me and save me from vbulletin 3.8 then please do so. :frantics:

You just kinda contradicted yourself a bit there. You said that in general humans are stupid, but then you should listen to what these stupid humans say? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

Also, about IPS not tailoring every feature to be exactly what you want, they are professionals. They have goals in mind and are trying to keep IPB from getting bogged down with extra crap in the core of the product. Just because 25% of the people using IPB want a feature doesn't necessarily mean they should put it in because there is still the 75% that doesn't want it. I appreciate what IPS is trying to do with keeping the core of the product lean and then pushing the features which most people won't use into hooks and modifications. I don't see what is wrong with that, it allows IPS to focus on the core functionality instead of adding in random settings for everyone while it simultaneously allows for you to get the same sort of settings and customization which you are looking for through the use of hooks.

Also, mind you that not everyone is a "power user" looking for all of the features and settings in the world. There are many casual forum-goers who would probably prefer a more simplistic experience..

[Donkerrood]

Well, well... cdkey...

I totally agree with you on the participations of your community's members. If you do that, people will look forward to the upgrade if you present things well. Furthermore make sure that your layout is only changed where it really - in your opinion - an upgrade. I am already creating my own designed skin on the 3.2 framework and the CSS makes it very easy!

I do not so much agree on your other points :)

[Hexsplosions]

Just because 25% of the people using IPB want a feature doesn't necessarily mean they should put it in because there is still the 75% that doesn't want it.

In my experience, the 25% who say they want something are the vocal ones. The other 75% are made up of those who are not vocal (lurkers) or simply don't care. I would say very few of that '75%' would actually 'not' want something, if they can choose to ignore it (and that is the key, enable/disable controls are brilliant).

I do agree that some casual forum admins may benefit from a simpler tool set.

[ZakRhyno]

With all due respect, we are quite capable of making improvements off our own back, and not because someone else has done it. Sure, xF came out and is 'shiny'. IPB 3.x has been around for (including development) approaching 4 years. It was time for an overhaul. It's simply coincidence that xF came out too. We would have made the changes anyway because that's where the modern web is going.

That's what we're influenced by. Modern web applications. Hundreds of millions of people use Facebook, Twitter, Last.fm, Wordpress, and so on. There's some conventions and styles that work because people see them every day.

I appreciate your needs are different, and I'm sorry if you feel that out of the box we aren't up to meeting them. But that's exactly why our software is highly extensible, skinnable and so on. You might groan at once again being told that you can make changes in your skin, but please look at it from our point of view - if we met your needs, someone else would come along and tell us we're doing it wrong (and indeed that's exactly what they did with 3.x - see the next paragraph). We cannot possibly meet all needs by default. (Set up a stock Wordpress install - it probably does very little of what you need. That's why it, too, is extensible).

Feedback on the original 3.x experience was fairly unanimous, even from the many people who love it - it was a little clunky, quite dark, confusing, and just didn't feel modern. That's party because it's 4 years old. So we've worked based on that feedback to make 3.2 what it is. Other than a handful of people making their voices heard, the feedback has been outstanding - so we must be pleasing a lot of people.

If your needs dictate that you need something done differently, that is why we're so extensible. I'm sure you'll be able to resolve it and make it work for you while still having the excellent foundation that 3.2 provides.

And regarding version numbering, would it matter if we called it 4.0? Would your feedback change? I'm not entirely sure how 'major update 3.2', 'major update 4.0' etc. would change things. It's just a number. The core hasn't changed, so that's why it's still '3'.

With all due respect, we are quite capable of making improvements off our own back, and not because someone else has done it. Sure, xF came out and is 'shiny'. IPB 3.x has been around for (including development) approaching 4 years. It was time for an overhaul. It's simply coincidence that xF came out too. We would have made the changes anyway because that's where the modern web is going.

That's what we're influenced by. Modern web applications. Hundreds of millions of people use Facebook, Twitter, Last.fm, Wordpress, and so on. There's some conventions and styles that work because people see them every day.

I appreciate your needs are different, and I'm sorry if you feel that out of the box we aren't up to meeting them. But that's exactly why our software is highly extensible, skinnable and so on. You might groan at once again being told that you can make changes in your skin, but please look at it from our point of view - if we met your needs, someone else would come along and tell us we're doing it wrong (and indeed that's exactly what they did with 3.x - see the next paragraph). We cannot possibly meet all needs by default. (Set up a stock Wordpress install - it probably does very little of what you need. That's why it, too, is extensible).

Feedback on the original 3.x experience was fairly unanimous, even from the many people who love it - it was a little clunky, quite dark, confusing, and just didn't feel modern. That's party because it's 4 years old. So we've worked based on that feedback to make 3.2 what it is. Other than a handful of people making their voices heard, the feedback has been outstanding - so we must be pleasing a lot of people.

If your needs dictate that you need something done differently, that is why we're so extensible. I'm sure you'll be able to resolve it and make it work for you while still having the excellent foundation that 3.2 provides.

And regarding version numbering, would it matter if we called it 4.0? Would your feedback change? I'm not entirely sure how 'major update 3.2', 'major update 4.0' etc. would change things. It's just a number. The core hasn't changed, so that's why it's still '3'.

Could it be tho that you guys tune it to much when listening? Yes you wanted to fix it more better, simple but maybe to simple?

[Aisha]

You just kinda contradicted yourself a bit there. You said that in general humans are stupid, but then you should listen to what these stupid humans say? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

Yes, because if you act like you're listening to them they're all stupid enough to be content with feeling involved. :)

Also, about IPS not tailoring every feature to be exactly what you want, they are professionals. They have goals in mind and are trying to keep IPB from getting bogged down with extra crap in the core of the product. Just because 25% of the people using IPB want a feature doesn't necessarily mean they should put it in because there is still the 75% that doesn't want it. I appreciate what IPS is trying to do with keeping the core of the product lean and then pushing the features which most people won't use into hooks and modifications. I don't see what is wrong with that, it allows IPS to focus on the core functionality instead of adding in random settings for everyone while it simultaneously allows for you to get the same sort of settings and customization which you are looking for through the use of hooks.

Uh huh. I acknowledged that they have a goal in mind. I also agree that they're taking the proper steps to achieve these goals. I'm just telling Biker.GA to give up on trying to get IPS to change these goals.

Also, mind you that not everyone is a "power user" looking for all of the features and settings in the world. There are many casual forum-goers who would probably prefer a more simplistic experience..

That's wonderful! :)

[Aisha]

I do not so much agree on your other points :smile:

What were my other points? I wasn't really trying to make any unless calling IPS stupid and stubborn is a "point" which I don't consider it to be so. I think that was more of a fact an opinion. ^_^

[JVCode]

I want to upgrade but the 3.2 post states that "We plan to offer an upgrade path from Beta 1 to Beta 2 but this may not be the case so do not plan on this." - Does this mean that it come along and there's no upgrade path from BETA 1 to BETA 2 ? Also, I'm not happy with the "Forum Rules" background border being removed, can someone tell me how to add this back ? One more thing, does 3.2 change any topic URL's? or does it keep the same structure as 3.1.4 (does the IP.SEO tool work with 3.2?)

This is an example of what I mean by forum rules background.

[Aisha]

I want to upgrade but the 3.2 post states that "We plan to offer an upgrade path from Beta 1 to Beta 2 but this may not be the case so do not plan on this." - Does this mean that it come along and there's no upgrade path from BETA 1 to BETA 2 ? Also, I'm not happy with the "Forum Rules" background border being removed, can someone tell me how to add this back ? One more thing, does 3.2 change any topic URL's? or does it keep the same structure as 3.1.4 (does the IP.SEO tool work with 3.2?)

This is an example of what I mean by forum rules background.

In the css add a line for forum_rules

[JVCode]

In the css add a line for forum_rules

I'm not making any sense of this, can you expand a little more please.

[Aisha]

I'm not making any sense of this, can you expand a little more please.

Nope. :)

Go to look and feel tab. Click on the skin you want. Click the css tab. Click ipb_styles.css. Scroll to the bottom. Type this in.

.forum_rules {
background: #000;
}