Open source the core framework for v4.0

[ADKGamers]

Documentation is what's keeping my friend from developing for IPB. He does developing work all the time and most stuff he gets done in a short amount of time. But with that being said, he just doesn't have enough time to try to look through all the code and figure everything out.

He would love to do more, but with a lacking documentation we have to resort to other developers.

[Marcher Technologies]

Because the core is worthless without apps.. it's just a framework and nothing else. Anybody could install the core but the next step is going to be going out and buying apps for it.

Microsoft created a monopoly out of locking people into their platform ya know. As for developers? They're going to flock to where the money is.

And as for IPS, why do it? If they go to a typical 70/30 revenue split model for the marketplace then they are pulling in $9 on every $30 third-party app they sell in the store.. all for giving away the core for free and hooking people into their platform. As a developer I'd even pay a few extra bucks if I could get my app some type of "Gold certification" status or something that tells people that my app is well-written and supported and can be trusted (and hopefully more visibility in the marketplace as well).

Bold: Like saying an OS is useless without a single program, right? The next step could be building a custom app you want.

Italic: It sure as *heck* is not free. The free OS, Linux, with all of its flavors, has never had a "Vast pool of developers". Free means the money is not here, or easily parted with.

The last: Shrugs, sure, be happy to hike everything up to compensate for that increased cut. :smile:

The above post: Heard that time and time, and time again.

[Marcher Technologies]

As a final note. Lack of developer interest has nothing to do with the price tag, or the documentation in many, many cases.

Continually being unwilling to actually give it a chance and stubbornly think of it like it was still the 2.x series in framework, skin, and so-on is a continual recurring theme, which is why you see a lot more of the new-to-the-scene types like myself here.... the 'old hands' as it were continually and without merit slam IPB.

[mat206]

Bold: Like saying an OS is useless without a single program, right? The next step could be building a custom app you want.

Italic: It sure as *heck* is not free. The free OS, Linux, with all of its flavors, has never had a "Vast pool of developers". Free means the money is not here, or easily parted with.

The last: Shrugs, sure, be happy to hike everything up to compensate for that increased cut. :smile:

The above post: Heard that time and time, and time again.

Yes, an OS is useless without programs. This is a correct statement. Windows provides quite a few apps as does OSX in an out-of-box install. You don't buy an OS for shiny buttons, but for what you can do with it.

Most people get their OS with the hardware as well, and Microsoft does a great job of giving steep discounts to OEM vendors. And what is the windows 8 cost for those upgrading? Like.. $40? I'd guarantee you they put millions of dollars into creating Windows 8. They're doing it because they are trying to create an app ecosystem like Apple has created for their platform.

And Linux has a HUGE developer pool, are you kidding me? It has major corporations developing for it even..

In any case, it's indisputable that giving away the core for free at least lowers the barrier to entry for developers to develop for IPS. As for the individual apps, their prices *should* be adjusted if they think they are losing money on lost sales of the core.. but the lost revenue could be offset by marketplace earnings. But for developers, they WILL NOT INVEST in developing for a platform unless the market is there. That is why you need widespread adoption.. and IPS is in it's infancy with it's marketplace, which makes for a great opportunity for developers if their platform becomes more widely adopted.

And that 2.X stuff is a tired argument.. Apple shows us an example where OSX clearly changed the game for that company where their old OS was crap. It's about delivering killer apps for your platform.. if you can do that, then you can control the market. People go where the best apps are available.

[Rimi]

As a final note. Lack of developer interest has nothing to do with the price tag, or the documentation in many, many cases.

Continually being unwilling to actually give it a chance and stubbornly think of it like it was still the 2.x series in framework, skin, and so-on is a continual recurring theme, which is why you see a lot more of the new-to-the-scene types like myself here.... the 'old hands' as it were continually and without merit slam IPB.

Hey...that's what I said.

[Marcher Technologies]

Yes, an OS is useless without programs. This is a correct statement. Windows provides quite a few apps as does OSX in an out-of-box install. You don't buy an OS for shiny buttons, but for what you can do with it.

Most people get their OS with the hardware as well, and Microsoft does a great job of giving steep discounts to OEM vendors. And what is the windows 8 cost for those upgrading? Like.. $40? I'd guarantee you they put millions of dollars into creating Windows 8. They're doing it because they are trying to create an app ecosystem like Apple has created for their platform.

And Linux has a HUGE developer pool, are you kidding me? It has major corporations developing for it even..

In any case, it's indisputable that giving away the core for free at least lowers the barrier to entry for developers to develop for IPS. As for the individual apps, their prices *should* be adjusted if they think they are losing money on lost sales of the core.. but the lost revenue could be offset by marketplace earnings. But for developers, they WILL NOT INVEST in developing for a platform unless the market is there. That is why you need widespread adoption.. and IPS is in it's infancy with it's marketplace, which makes for a great opportunity for developers if their platform becomes more widely adopted.

And that 2.X stuff is a tired argument.. Apple shows us an example where OSX clearly changed the game for that company where their old OS was crap. It's about delivering killer apps for your platform.. if you can do that, then you can control the market. People go where the best apps are available.

ok, so take that $90, and renewals, and split it off on the other apps?

I still have trouble understanding how you fail to see that cost will be transferred to you, both in first-party, and third-party offerings, but w/e.

Hey...that's what I said.

Yes it was, and as much as you can say it is old hat, go visit an admin forum, any, and you will find these misconceptions are rampant.

[Rimi]

Yes it was, and as much as you can say it is old hat, go visit an admin forum, any, and you will find these misconceptions are rampant.

Indeed. It's not that IPS isn't an appealing framework to develop for. It's that most people are too stubborn and stupid to realize the potential it has for them. I mean we have developers here who make their entire living off of apps and hooks for the marketplace. That's saying something.

[mat206]

Indeed. It's not that IPS isn't an appealing framework to develop for. It's that most people are too stubborn and stupid to realize the potential it has for them. I mean we have developers here who make their entire living off of apps and hooks for the marketplace. That's saying something.

So how to you get people to realize the potential it has for them? Maybe that is a question that needs an answer. No company can ever sit back and hope to recapture lost market share without doing things differently. You need to do something great.. and other people have to see it. I think giving away the core for free and creating a huge focus on the app marketplace and developers (including documentation) does that. The best apps are by far the ones IPS has developed thus far.

[Marcher Technologies]

*hangs head in defeat* Dunno how much more clear Lindy's like of my first post in this topic could be.

Is very much not my call, nor your call, and I doubt very highly after years of it being a commercial product to just be given away... but you surely know best :) .

The best apps being made by IPS is a rather opinionated statement firstly, and if valid is a direct result of a monopoly on the most desirable content types and no more.

A downloads manager, a Gallery, a Forums, a Content Creation System, A blogging system, a Store... and what precisely does that leave in the general view of things?

Love how you literally completely renounce hooks of any value or mention.

*Roasted Done Out*

[Ryan H.]

ok, so take that $90, and renewals, and split it off on the other apps?

I still have trouble understanding how you fail to see that cost will be transferred to you, both in first-party, and third-party offerings, but w/e.

We understand that perfectly. Yes, it will probably mean increased app costs and Marketplace fees. People may get upset. We say it's for the greater good.

As far as I can see, it's the only way of evolving it into a feasible open development platform for websites. The core split helps situations where people have no desire for a forum, but it does nothing to encourage companies (like mine) to actually start using it for client implementations. Isn't that worth going for?

Stop trying to shut it down, Marcher, and entertain the idea.

[Heyhoe]

I can see that if more developers where attracted to IPS then the platform would become more popular and therefore more successful (More money for IPS)

But I can't see that making it free would change any developer serious about their business to make them want to develop for it. It MAY attract a few more. But anyone who begrudges paying for the framework would likely be a developer of lesser quality.

So if this happend, IPS are essentially giving a product away free, just so people can give money to a 3rd party developer...

This is also entirely dependant on whether IPS allow a third party app to run on the framework without any official IPS apps of course.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more it gets complicated!

[Marcher Technologies]

We understand that perfectly. Yes, it will probably mean increased app costs and Marketplace fees. People may get upset. We say it's for the greater good.

As far as I can see, it's the only way of evolving it into a feasible open development platform for websites. The core split helps situations where people have no desire for a forum, but it does nothing to encourage companies (like mine) to actually start using it for client implementations. Isn't that worth going for?

Stop trying to shut it down, Marcher, and entertain the idea.

I have entertained the idea, repeatedly, and considering my own experiences with *free* this not only would devalue the core, but devalue the time and energy devoted to maintaining it.

You know yourself that free provides 0 drive, and amounts to 'when I get to it'.

Also, I would like to know why you expect to make money off of your clients while reaming IPS time and energy?

Certainly, you still have to make your custom application for your client, but the work already *done* by the core is no less valuable, nor the time to maintain it and add enhancements.

[Rimi]

So how to you get people to realize the potential it has for them? Maybe that is a question that needs an answer. No company can ever sit back and hope to recapture lost market share without doing things differently. You need to do something great.. and other people have to see it. I think giving away the core for free and creating a huge focus on the app marketplace and developers (including documentation) does that. The best apps are by far the ones IPS has developed thus far.

Ummm....lol? IPS does do thing differently. Spam service? Hosting services? CDN service? Backup service? Does any other forum company do this? IPS was the first to make a mobile skin. An overwhelming majority of IPS' final product is based off of client feedback. IPS has the best support out of any forum software on available. IPS has been great and lots of people know about it too. Like I said, they're too stubborn to admit it which is why they stay away from IPS. Releasing the core for free won't cause those people to change their minds and approach IPS. Go look at their posts on any admin forum. They will continue to hate IPS because they are spiteful.

I also want to point out the new pricing structure that will come with 4.0. The core will be $100 and board will be $75 and all the other apps won't change. So if I want to run standalone content then my total will be $150. What you're suggesting is that the fee for the core be dropped and core be given away for free. That causes IPS to lose at least 57% and up to 66% on every sale. Your solution to this is for IPS to raise the prices of their apps. Seriously? You want IP.Board, on it's own, to cost $175, maybe $200? You want IP.Content to cost $150? IP.Gallery should cost $165? The current price of IPB is primarily for the sake of the core and the support behind it. Giving it away for free would force them to significantly increase their prices. And if a third party were to make a cheaper Gallery, even with a 70/30 split IPS would not recover. Even if IPS did this and upped their prices accordingly, or reasonably, and it did bring in more developers, it would certainly not bring in more customers.

So my conclusions are basically this. No developers will be brought in unless they're completely new faces like Marcher was and customers will practically run away. The only real argument for bringing in more developers for IPS is what Marcher has stated repeatedly: documentation. And frankly, Brandon has been more than willing to do the documentation, but he just doesn't know what's needed. You need to tell him. I asked him for documentation on how to send a PM. Done. I asked him to document ccsFunctions. Done. I asked him to document the gallery helper class for images. Done, and he did it for albums too. Just ask for documentation and you will receive. If it's a question of structure of the documentation, or the entire suite being documented then I recommend presenting an outline for him because he just doesn't know what people need documented.

[Marcher Technologies]

Not only the above, but then A: determining a valid license becomes utterly painful.

B: There would be individuals, having no use for any IPS app, that would very basically use the core as a dev platform, and what would IPS see for this? That's right, 0$, the dev would be raking in cash from clients with IPS getting no cut for their hard work.

<sarcasm>So, App Prices to make consumers run, and the above... what's not to love here then?</sarcasm>

[mat206]

Having the core be free doesn't mean that the framework necessarily need be open. They could explicitly require that all apps that are sold be sold and certified through the IPS Marketplace and they could specify the requirements (ie. no apps that compete with existing IPS services). This is similar to what Apple does.

As far as the other apps are concerned, I wouldn't be raising each app by $100. I would be raising each app $10-20 tops and then adjusting the revenue split on the marketplace to 70/30 and trying to recruit as many developers as possible to be making money for themselves *and* IPS. Right now the top app on IPS did what.. $48K in three years? That's not a livable salary.

And for the company I run, it is the SUPPORT that is the most valuable thing IPS offers compared to other forum companies. They could certainly create a "Free Core" edition and a supported/premium core edition with additional services like CDN, spammer filtering, etc. I would purchase the premium core because we need that support.

[Marcher Technologies]

Focused by a laser on the mp.

And how exactly do you respond to my statement above regarding custom apps spewed forth by a dev with IPS never seeing a dime?

The MP is not the bread and butter of IPS modding as you appear to think, nor should it be, much is done completely custom that never sees submission on the MP.

The luxury apple has of complete control of what gets installed is not present here on IPB, and it would be completely wrong to enforce such in the first place.

[mat206]

Focused by a laser on the mp.

And how exactly do you respond to my statement above regarding custom apps spewed forth by a dev with IPS never seeing a dime?

The MP is not the bread and butter of IPS modding as you appear to think, nor should it be, much is done completely custom that never sees submission on the MP.

The luxury apple has of complete control of what gets installed is not present here on IPB, and it would be completely wrong to enforce such in the first place.

Point one about IPS not seeing a dime on some custom apps.. So what? IPS doesn't make money when VBulletin sells a license either. But the difference is that that end user is using IPS's core framework rather than VBulletin. Which has a better chance of working out in favor of IPS if that end user wants premium apps like the forums?

I think you are assuming it's easy to develop an app for IPS and just go out and market it all on your own without involving IPS and it's community. That would take a ton of resources when the audience for your apps is right here.

And why can't the MP be the bread and butter of IPS modding? If it were, then IPS would also be making more from it. There just aren't any killer apps that aren't developed by IPS in the marketplace yet.

[Dmacleo]

I would be concerned, if core opened up like that, that what happened to SMF would happen. it turned into a messy developer cage match.

[Marcher Technologies]

Point one about IPS not seeing a dime on some custom apps.. So what? IPS doesn't make money when VBulletin sells a license either. But the difference is that that end user is using IPS's core framework rather than VBulletin. Which has a better chance of working out in favor of IPS if that end user wants premium apps like the forums?

I think you are assuming it's easy to develop an app for IPS and just go out and market it all on your own without involving IPS and it's community. That would take a ton of resources when the audience for your apps is right here.

I am assuming, and validly, that clients contact modders for x. x may not be usable to the community at large, or modder may be contractually obliged to not release x.

Market, Market *what*? they come to the modder directly, there is no need to market such.

This Sentence above rephrased slightly should help clarify.

Which has a better chance of working out in favor of IPS if that end user does not want premium apps like the forums?

[Rimi]

Having the core be free doesn't mean that the framework necessarily need be open. They could explicitly require that all apps that are sold be sold and certified through the IPS Marketplace and they could specify the requirements (ie. no apps that compete with existing IPS services). This is similar to what Apple does.

As far as the other apps are concerned, I wouldn't be raising each app by $100. I would be raising each app $10-20 tops and then adjusting the revenue split on the marketplace to 70/30 and trying to recruit as many developers as possible to be making money for themselves *and* IPS. Right now the top app on IPS did what.. $48K in three years? That's not a livable salary.

And for the company I run, it is the SUPPORT that is the most valuable thing IPS offers compared to other forum companies. They could certainly create a "Free Core" edition and a supported/premium core edition with additional services like CDN, spammer filtering, etc. I would purchase the premium core because we need that support.

Except IPS has a bigger piracy problem with less ability to control than apple does.

Right. You'll only raise the price by $20 tops. This still leads to massive cut (still over 50%) in revenue. You then expect to break even with revenue acquired by the 70/30 split on the apps required to be sold through the marketplace, which again, you have no control over and could easily be sold elsewhere. Not to mention that you're working under the assumption that all marketplace apps will be paid will be charged high enough so that revenue is actually generated and that people will actually buy these expensive apps (based on current marketplace dynamics nobody will buy them - just look at my hooks. I purposely overcharge them with the intention of not having anyone buy them and it works out for me). Then assuming that everything I just mentioned works out in the best way possible (it won't) you expect IPS to instead go out and recruit developers instead of focusing on their work. It's pretty simple here, the math just doesn't add up. *insert Mitt Romney joke here* You're working off of too many assumptions that simply will not hold true when you actually look at the state of developers in regards to forum software.

Where did you get that $48k figure from? o.O Regardless of accuracy IPS makes money from their monthly hosting services, there products, the renewal fees attached to them, and the custom jobs they do for enterprise customers. I was offered a job from IPS and the pay they offered me was pretty decent for part time, so it's really not your place to question how much they've made in the past three years. I'm convinced they rake it in quite well. If they were to follow your economic model, however, then they would surely collapse. You're suggesting that they cut their revenue by more than half and hope that the marketplace kicks off (it won't).

The MP is not the bread and butter of IPS modding as you appear to think, nor should it be, much is done completely custom that never sees submission on the MP.

Confirming for true.

[Rimi]

And why can't the MP be the bread and butter of IPS modding? If it were, then IPS would also be making more from it. There just aren't any killer apps that aren't developed by IPS in the marketplace yet.

IPS shouldn't be making commissions off of other people's work anyway. The fees they charge now are only in place to keep the marketplace going. IPS should rely on their own work and their own products to generate revenue. Any company that relies on third parties to bring in the revenue for them is going to lose out. And please don't try to compare to apple's app store again. Apple has tons of other products to make up for revenue. IPS would not be able to reliably recover if they offset all their fees into the marketplace. At least work out the math.

[Marcher Technologies]

And why can't the MP be the bread and butter of IPS modding?

Look at the MP.

Look *hard*.

put a $50 price tag on an app, and watch the scorn, put 100$ and watch it sit forever with 0 purchases.

My hourly is 40$, the MP doesn't even light a candle.

My answer, because the general MP consumer is cheap, the general client requesting custom work means business.

[Rimi]

Look at the MP.

Look *hard*.

put a $50 price tag on an app, and watch the scorn, put 100$ and watch it sit forever with 0 purchases.

My hourly is 40$, the MP doesn't even light a candle.

My answer, because the general MP consumer is cheap, the general client requesting custom work means business.

Not to play devil's advocate, but there's an exception to every rule.

Ends there though. In the end you're right.

[mat206]

I again reiterate the idea of a free unsupported core (great for developers) and a premium edition core with CDN, anti-spammer, and great IPS support (still $100). Support for any of the IPS apps like forums, blogs, etc. could require that the purchaser have the premium edition of the core.

Marcher, people pay for quality apps. Most MP stuff is pretty small and doesn't warrant a large price tag.

[Marcher Technologies]

Marcher, people pay for quality apps. Most MP stuff is pretty small and doesn't warrant a large price tag.

Do you dev?

Do you know how much work goes into the smallest of applications/mods?

If i were to tally the items I have generously contributed freely to the mp in sheer man-hours, you would drop a golden brick in shock.

This is one of the main issues with the MP, inability to appreciate any of the time, energy, and skill involved, and attitudes like that.

Small function !== small effort expended or small amount of code.

Just FYI, there are mods I have made I won't release here because of that attitude, because it would be labeled as too small to be worth much(after weeks of getting it WAI), and would mean yet more time devoted to support of non-appreciative and sometimes hostile consumers.

And yet we wonder why developer's actually run away from this platform, vanishing wholly without a word?