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Open source the core framework for v4.0


mat206

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Do you dev?

Do you know how much work goes into the smallest of applications?

If i were to tally the items I have generously contributed freely to the mp in sheer man-hours, you would drop a golden brick in shock.

This is one of the main issues with the MP, inability to appreciate any of the time, energy, and skill involved, and attitudes like that.

Yes I do develop, but the MP isn't really big enough or full-featured enough to warrant spending a lot of time writing full-featured apps. The upsides aren't there.. like you said, it would be more lucrative to develop on a contractual basis. What you do is great Marcher. It fulfills a need that is there. What I'm saying is that we need more people like you.. that it needs to be EASY for developers to get involved and that a profit motive drives where developers focus their time.

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I would say keeping them involved is more important than the gone in the night got involved but got burned.

And yes, you hit the nail on the head, the lack of Developers is an issue, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking the cost of IPB is the cause.

Frankly, the Clients themselves are often the cause.... I only have so much hair left on my head personally :smile:

Customs are so much more sane, and the worst thing I did for my work in reflection was list anything on the MP.

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That's where I think IPS is at a critical mass point where they really *can* focus on a future where developers become a key part of their business strategy. But that also means doing a lot of things right for developers and winning them back over to their platform. That means great documentation, support, promotional tools for the marketplace, and accessibility to things like the core at no charge. You can't learn how to develop an IPS app unless you've already jumped with two feet into licensing IPS.

Organizing the developer pool and retaining them is also vital as a service to the community. We as a community benefit when IPS has a large third-party developer pool.

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I again reiterate the idea of a free unsupported core (great for developers) and a premium edition core with CDN, anti-spammer, and great IPS support (still $100). Support for any of the IPS apps like forums, blogs, etc. could require that the purchaser have the premium edition of the core.

Marcher, people pay for quality apps. Most MP stuff is pretty small and doesn't warrant a large price tag.

That's where I think IPS is at a critical mass point where they really *can* focus on a future where developers become a key part of their business strategy. But that also means doing a lot of things right for developers and winning them back over to their platform. That means great documentation, support, promotional tools for the marketplace, and accessibility to things like the core at no charge. You can't learn how to develop an IPS app unless you've already jumped with two feet into licensing IPS.

Organizing the developer pool and retaining them is also vital as a service to the community. We as a community benefit when IPS has a large third-party developer pool.

Man...you do realize that IPS is an actual company right? Their mission, goal, desire, duty, whatever you want to call it is not to create an active community of developers. What they set out to do is create quality software to help people build communities of their own. Releasing the core for free will not bring in more developers, we've already told you this. It will not improve the marketplace either. Everything Marcher is saying is completely true. The marketplace isn't bad because of the lack of developers. It's bad because of the obnoxious clients who drive developers away. I mean there was once a person on the contributor board who was practically crying over how a certain client treated them. As it stands IPS gains absolutely no financial benefit from releasing the core for free. They only take a financial risk. And no that risk is not alleviated by offering a premium core (which I'll mention was not a part of your initial idea and the fact that you're now considering it only shows that you've been forced to acknowledge that your idea isn't that great after all).

And again, I still don't think 3rd party apps can run standalone on the core anyway, which, of course, isn't going to be pulling any developers in as the price barrier is still there.
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The marketplace isn't bad because of the lack of developers. It's bad because of the obnoxious clients who drive developers away. I mean there was once a person on the contributor board who was practically crying over how a certain client treated them.

There's two sides to that coin.

I have a lot of respect for those who develop mods and skins for IPS products, and those who do so without charging should also not be subject to unreasonable demands from users. However, when a developer releases apps for a price, that changes the ballgame, we're no longer users. We're customers. Yes, there's a huge difference. If we are paying for a mod or a skin, we have every right to expect it to work. When a paid skin turns out looking like crap, it takes time out of our schedule to get it fixed. When a paid mod goes without support, it takes time out of our schedule to get it fixed. If the developer is gone for a ridiculous amount of time and questions are going unanswered on paid mods/skins, THAT is what ruins the marketplace for us.

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There's two sides to that coin.

I have a lot of respect for those who develop mods and skins for IPS products, and those who do so without charging should also not be subject to unreasonable demands from users. However, when a developer releases apps for a price, that changes the ballgame. We're no longer users, we're customers. Yes, there's a huge difference. If we are paying for a mod or a skin, we have every right to expect it to work. When a paid skin turns out looking like crap, it takes time out of our schedule to get it fixed. When a paid mod goes without support, it takes time out of our schedule to get it fixed. If the developer is gone for a ridiculous amount of time and questions are going unanswered on paid mods/skins, THAT is what ruins the marketplace for us.

That is when you should be reporting the mod/skin/w/e as broken(I'm bloody serious, dev won't respond for a ridiculous amount of time __at all__, that to me says dev vanished, and the mod/skin/w/e should be removed).

^ Goes back to again, what I said, when these devs vanish, is it so *truly* hard to understand *why* in this atmosphere?

Additionally, being a paying customer does not give you the right to feature-creep and 'call' it support, then flame the dev when your feature request is not granted in a time frame you expect/demand.

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Additionally, being a paying customer does not give you the right to feature-creep and 'call' it support, then flame the dev when your feature request is not granted in a time frame you expect/demand.

When have I ever claimed it was?

The only time I ever gave a dev hell that I can recall, he was not replying in his support thread at all for legitimate issues with his mod (even though he was posting elsewhere here on the forums). I reported that mod broken. the dev showed up for a day and put out some b/s post and the MM removed the report, and he disappeared again. Again, I reported it and kept on posting in the support thread telling people what the problem was, and I got griped at!

I shouldn't have to be the MM police, just to get griped at for warning potential customers not to spend their money on a crap dev.

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:) Updates/bugfixes were not quick enough for you.

Add 1 to the counter of devs driven away.

That particular mod, and modder is now gone.... Happy? :)

Play it how you want, But I know what mod, modder and topic you speak of.

At first I was going to say that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand but in fact it completely proves my point. As Marcher has pointed out here is the perfect example of clients driving away developers. It wasn't the price tag of ipb it was the client.

Guys, please don't run off topic.

It's actually completely relevant to the topic. The idea is that a free core will bring more developers. The counter is that it won't because of clients that do the above.
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At first I was going to say that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand but in fact it completely proves my point. As Marcher has pointed out here is the perfect example of clients driving away developers. It wasn't the price tag of ipb it was the client.

It's actually completely relevant to the topic. The idea is that a free core will bring more developers. The counter is that it won't because of clients that do the above.

You're right, I run off developers that post all over the IPS forums but completely ignore their own support threads while their broken mods and numerous pissed off customers languish in the marketplace.

Defending such irresponsible behavior is just stupid.

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You're right, I run off developers that post all over the IPS forums but completely ignore their own support threads while their broken mods and numerous pissed off customers languish in the marketplace.

Defending such irresponsible behavior is just stupid.

You'll only see more of it with a free core.
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You're right, I run off developers that post all over the IPS forums but completely ignore their own support threads while their broken mods and numerous pissed off customers languish in the marketplace.

Defending such irresponsible behavior is just stupid.

So spending weeks developing an update fixing outstanding bugs is ignoring the mod(this never got released, obviously, was less headache to walk AWAY than put up with it).

Good to know, will remember that.

You frankly expect outstanding service with a smile for chump change.

I'm apparently one of the few willing to put up with it.

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So spending weeks developing an update fixing outstanding bugs is ignoring the mod(this never got released, obviously, was less headache to walk AWAY than put up with it).

Good to know, will remember that.

You frankly expect outstanding service with a smile for chump change.

I'm apparently one of the few willing to put up with it.

The fact the dude couldn't just take 30 seconds to say, "Hey, I'm working on this", tells me your claim is optimistic beyond any measure of belief.

Customers bought that mod and could not use it, period for over a month with no response from him. It had nothing to do with a "bug" or "wanting more features". It was useless, simple as.

There's no point making posts in the contributor's forum about what he's doing when the people that need to know are the ones that spent their money on a broken product.

You're a smart guy, Marcher. How do you not get that simple concept?



You'll only see more of it with a free core.

I'm not the one advocating for it.

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