Open source the core framework for v4.0

[mat206]

I know this sounds crazy, but once you move to a system where all the apps exist apart from core it would be a tremendous idea for you guys to open up the core framework to *anybody*. The reasoning is that it vastly increases the developer pool for those looking to develop apps for the IP core framework beyond those who have licenses. This also allows developers like myself to openly involve others in developing applications without licensing issues.

There are dozens of MVC frameworks out there (like CakePHP), so you really don't have much to lose on opening up core. The more installations you can get out there of the base framework the greater chance you have to sell any one of your other apps (blog, content, forums, gallery, nexus).

If history has taught us anything, it's that opening up the platform for developers can be huge for adoption of that platform and would start to allow professional development companies to build apps for your software as adoption increases. Then you guys control the marketplace, which I would modify to a 70/30 revenue split where you get an automatic 30% on each purchase.

Then I would absolutely make a point of building the marketplace into the backend.. and allow people who have the framework to quickly purchase and install any of the major IP apps.

[MisterPhilip]

I wouldn't mind seeing the framework open sourced either. It'd definitely make the barrier to develop for IPS products lower... however, I have a sneaky suspicion that IPS won't go for it :(

[mat206]

I wouldn't mind seeing the framework open sourced either. It'd definitely make the barrier to develop for IPS products lower... however, I have a sneaky suspicion that IPS won't go for it :sad:

I wouldn't be so sure if it were me though. Core is only valuable IF there are great apps to go along with it.. and IPS already has a lightyear jump in creating these apps. Put it this way, they are already competing in an ecosystem where packages like Joomla, VBulletin, etc. already exist. Having a wider adoption of *their* platform not only increases their exposure, but opens up a wider potential customer base since they provide polished apps with professional support. They clearly aren't a fly-by-night company that will go under tomorrow.. so people can TRUST the longevity of their apps as they invest money into their site infrastructure.

[Marcher Technologies]

The core has a defined price tag and is commercial property.

Not gonna happen.

It is readable, so I'm not sure what you are looking for anyway. :ermm:

[Ryan H.]

The core has a defined price tag and is commercial property.

Not gonna happen.

It is readable, so I'm not sure what you are looking for anyway. :ermm:

It's a suggestion. He's asking for the core to be free, not visible (which, of course, it is anyway). Opening it as a development platform could vastly increase the resource pool and audience, while IPS could continue refining the existing applications and offer it as a first step for anyone installing or using the core. Continue to control and regulate the marketplace as mat suggests, and you have a potentially highly lucrative opportunity.

Unlikely, perhaps, but certainly worth serious consideration.

[• Jay •]

Just curious, why would an API approach not work for the purposes outlined in the OP?

[mat206]

The core has a defined price tag and is commercial property.

Not gonna happen.

It is readable, so I'm not sure what you are looking for anyway. :ermm:

Obviously it's commercial property, and it always would be. Maybe instead of calling it "open source" they should just simply give away core for free and charge for apps. The value isn't in the framework.. it's in the apps and *that* is where IPS has their bread and butter. I want *more* developers that are bringing quality apps and mods for this platform. Tell me.. why on earth would anyone choose VBulletin if they could get a huge suite of high quality apps here with support? And who in their right mind is going to try competing with IP.Board on their own framework? It wouldn't make any sense if IPS is the sole distributor of the framework and controls the license.

Anyone can get a framework that does exactly what IPS core does for free at http://cakephp.org/ .. check out this: http://book.cakephp.org/2.0/en/index.html

But you know what I can't do?

• I can't get an app as polished as the forums, blogs, gallery, etc. that has the support IPS offers - when my business relies on this software that is important
• I can't get a developer for my site (to even work on a third party app specific to my site) unless they come from this board and already have a license (so the talent pool is miserably small and most people here are preoccupied with developing their own sites)

Having and fostering a developer ecosystem is huge for companies like IPS because it fills in the gaps when it comes to the stuff they can't offer. For them, if they control the marketplace too they can quite simply not allow competing apps to be sold in their marketplace that use the framework. But for everyone else it answers a critical business need in being able to bring on additional developers who can easily poke around the API and create/test new applications.

[mat206]

It's a suggestion. He's asking for the core to be free, not visible (which, of course, it is anyway). Opening it as a development platform could vastly increase the resource pool and audience, while IPS could continue refining the existing applications and offer it as a first step for anyone installing or using the core. Continue to control and regulate the marketplace as mat suggests, and you have a potentially highly lucrative opportunity.

Unlikely, perhaps, but certainly worth serious consideration.

You got what I'm saying.. IPS management really shouldn't brush off this idea of a free core. It makes it so much easier for their customers when more developers can support their site infrastructure beyond the standard IPS apps.

[Dmacleo]

if the core were like that I would also wonder about 3rd party integration modules being easier, would be nice to integrate something like clipbucket w/o needing to know tons of code.

however as good as it could be, it could also be that bad for IP.

interesting topic though.

[MisterPhilip]

I think mat206 hit the nail on the head, for me at least:

• I can't get a developer for my site (to even work on a third party app specific to my site) unless they come from this board and already have a license (so the talent pool is miserably small and most people here are preoccupied with developing their own sites)

I'm honestly surprised this isn't brought up more... or maybe I'm just missing those threads.

[Marcher Technologies]

>.> I like the door charge personally, means I have to put up with less of the free-monger attitude types.

I would not be developing on this platform in the first place if it was free.

[Dmacleo]

>.> I like the door charge personally, means I have to put up with less of the free-monger attitude types.

I would not be developing on this platform in the first place if it was free.

gimme.

:P

[Michael]

I've really not yet seen any compelling arguments here that would lead me to believe this change would lead to a sudden influx of new developers who would be tripping over each other to provide their services to waiting customers.

I guess maybe I just don't get the goal here. I've been around IP.Board since the 1.3 days, when the entire code base was available for anyone to download and look at, and honestly it does not seem like there are fewer available developers. If anything, I think the more recent incarnations of IP.Board have gotten easier to write products for. It's been said to death, but I still think the top thing that is lacking to get more developers out there for people to hire is a well-organized and rich set of documentation.

[mat206]

>.> I like the door charge personally, means I have to put up with less of the free-monger attitude types.

I would not be developing on this platform in the first place if it was free.

Of course you do.. the marketplace looks like the "Marcher Technologies" show at times since you have so many contributions. That's awesome that you've done so much and you are an asset to the community, but I'd gladly take a much larger developer pool and some real competition between app developers to improve the quality and variety of apps even if it meant you stopping your development activities (which I'd hope you wouldn't)

On the IPS side what they would need to do is really tighten up the marketplace and address versioning issues. But they could also serve in a capacity to ensure that app developers are following development guidelines. That these apps utilize the proper framework and conform to styling issues.

[• Jay •]

I've really not yet seen any compelling arguments here that would lead me to believe this change would lead to a sudden influx of new developers who would be tripping over each other to provide their services to waiting customers.

I guess maybe I just don't get the goal here. I've been around IP.Board since the 1.3 days, when the entire code base was available for anyone to download and look at, and honestly it does not seem like there are fewer available developers. If anything, I think the more recent incarnations of IP.Board have gotten easier to write products for. It's been said to death, but I still think the top thing that is lacking to get more developers out there for people to hire is a well-organized and rich set of documentation.

Don't say the "D" word!

[Marcher Technologies]

I've really not yet seen any compelling arguments here that would lead me to believe this change would lead to a sudden influx of new developers who would be tripping over each other to provide their services to waiting customers.

I guess maybe I just don't get the goal here. I've been around IP.Board since the 1.3 days, when the entire code base was available for anyone to download and look at, and honestly it does not seem like there are fewer available developers. If anything, I think the more recent incarnations of IP.Board have gotten easier to write products for. It's been said to death, but I still think the top thing that is lacking to get more developers out there for people to hire is a well-organized and rich set of documentation.

Well said.

Don't say the "D" word!

Documentation.

For the love of... the documentation available does no good to any developer not already neck-deep.

I myself learned through source-digging, and often still have to resort to it.

Still no post api documentation, no mention of the moderation class I have to use in a couple of apps, no documentation of the topics/forums api.

This is not counting the numerous valuable items pulled out of the *other apps*.

If I wanted/valued a PHPDoc, I *would* just go open the source instead, not much difference with a decent IDE.

[mat206]

I've really not yet seen any compelling arguments here that would lead me to believe this change would lead to a sudden influx of new developers who would be tripping over each other to provide their services to waiting customers.

I guess maybe I just don't get the goal here. I've been around IP.Board since the 1.3 days, when the entire code base was available for anyone to download and look at, and honestly it does not seem like there are fewer available developers. If anything, I think the more recent incarnations of IP.Board have gotten easier to write products for. It's been said to death, but I still think the top thing that is lacking to get more developers out there for people to hire is a well-organized and rich set of documentation.

I think IPS has reached a critical mass that would make this possible with their current app suite. The developer documentation is the best it's ever been. While I'm not saying it will open a flood gate of developers, it does allow site owners to start to contract third-party developers from a larger pool than those who advertise their services on this site and makes things essentially free for any developer to begin developing apps for this platform. Identifying which apps are quality is another issue, but a solvable one (all app stores have to find ways to address this issue).

[mat206]

Well said.

Documentation.

For the love of... the documentation available does no good to any developer not already neck-deep.

I myself learned through source-digging, and often still have to resort to it.

Still no post api documentation, no mention of the moderation class I have to use in a couple of apps, no documentation of the topics/forums api.

This is not counting the numerous valuable items pulled out of the *other apps*.

If I wanted/valued a PHPDoc, I *would* just go open the source instead, not much difference with a decent IDE.

To be fair though, you don't need the post api, topics/forums api, or moderation class necessarily to write an app. They have definitely provided sufficient documentation for an app developer to write a standalone app.

[Marcher Technologies]

Of course you do.. the marketplace looks like the "Marcher Technologies" show at times since you have so many contributions. That's awesome that you've done so much and you are an asset to the community, but I'd gladly take a much larger developer pool and some real competition between app developers to improve the quality and variety of apps even if it meant you stopping your development activities (which I'd hope you wouldn't)

On the IPS side what they would need to do is really tighten up the marketplace and address versioning issues. But they could also serve in a capacity to ensure that app developers are following development guidelines. That these apps utilize the proper framework and conform to styling issues.

>.> I'm just going to comment and state I am by no means the most proficient producer of hooks/mods on the mp, and I would *prefer* many more quality developers available.

Demand>Supply, none of us can keep up.

Your argument remains highly invalid however, are you saying VB(of old, note, not the monstrosity 5 is) and XF's price tags removed developer interest?

Any developer completely unwilling to spend money to make money... I simply have no words for.

[Rimi]

I've really not yet seen any compelling arguments here that would lead me to believe this change would lead to a sudden influx of new developers who would be tripping over each other to provide their services to waiting customers.

I guess maybe I just don't get the goal here. I've been around IP.Board since the 1.3 days, when the entire code base was available for anyone to download and look at, and honestly it does not seem like there are fewer available developers. If anything, I think the more recent incarnations of IP.Board have gotten easier to write products for. It's been said to death, but I still think the top thing that is lacking to get more developers out there for people to hire is a well-organized and rich set of documentation.

I agree with this. I don't think that developers will come diving in, or even trickling in, if this type of change was made. Furthermore, the goal of 4.0 is to make it the IPS Community Suite. The true focus of the framework is community, networking, and bringing people on the internet together. Not all types of php applications have that in mind and not all developers will be pulled into IPS because at it's core IPS will always always have IP.Board as their main product and people will tend to lock themselves into only developing out extensions of that community ideal. IPS can certainly try to make IP.Content the center of their product set, but lets face it. After over 10 years of IP.Board changing gears and getting everyone else in the developer world to acknowledge it isn't simple. I honestly don't think people will look at IPS and go "Huh, that's a very convenient framework for what I have in mind". Additionally, I may be wrong, but I vaguely recall someone from IPS saying that a 3rd party application wouldn't be capable of running as the default app..so the framework they have in mind would require an IPS product running in some form. I might be wrong about that though.

If I may chime in on the documentation...most people who've known me in my time here (pretty much no one..) knows that I came into this forum with absolutely 0 knowledge in php. I've learned how to make all my hooks and IP.Content pages by reading IPS' documentation, post stalking Marcher, and tearing through Terabyte's and Michael's hooks and of course Michael's walkthrough for hooks and apps. IPS documentation really isn't that bad once you get the hang of the framework. If you want everything spoonfed to you then I guess the documentation isn't that great, but for someone who had zero php knowledge coming in I think I've done pretty well with it.

And I'm also kind of smart. :S

Your argument remains highly invalid however, are you saying VB(of old, note, not the monstrosity 5 is) and XF's price tags removed developer interest?

That's a pretty good point. There really are people who absolutely refuse to even look at IPS because of how IPB 2.3 was in comparison to VB 3.8 and other past histories. Amongst forum and community developers IPS seems to have built a reputation that it no longer stands by. If you look at IPS with an open mind or as a complete newcomer (like myself and I believe Marcher was too) then you'll see there are lots of opportunities, but some people just can't move on.

[Marcher Technologies]

To be fair though, you don't need the post api, topics/forums api, or moderation class necessarily to write an app. They have definitely provided sufficient documentation for an app developer to write a standalone app.

For 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, and 3.4, all muddled together.

Sure, that works, I suppose.... I often have to scarf code from a working example when the doc is dated, but w/e.

[mat206]

>.> I'm just going to comment and state I am by no means the most proficient producer of hooks/mods on the mp, and I would *prefer* many more quality developers available.

Demand>Supply, none of us can keep up.

Your argument remains highly invalid however, are you saying VB(of old, note, not the monstrosity 5 is) and XF's price tags removed developer interest?

Any developer completely unwilling to spend money to make money... I simply have no words for.

I think the idea here is to expand access to the developer community. IPS has a clear distribution channel that hasn't existed until the marketplace was created. That allows developers to have a profit motive in creating apps for IPS. Right now VB and XF (XF especially) have a very poor selection of apps.. so I wouldn't use them as an example of what is possible.

But then.. Joomla has 10,000+ extensions by comparison.

[Marcher Technologies]

I still fail to see where you think the core is worth 0$, or would ever be offered for such.

They plan to pull the board out, which to me is an inkling of what you pay for with IPB, the main selling point *is* the stable and dependable platform, not the board.

A hopeful dream perhaps, but not a valid one, it is still commercial property being actively developed, I don't understand how the removal of the board devalues the core in any way..

Would you, having spent the countless hours put in on that core, give it away? I highly doubt it.

[Ryan H.]

I still fail to see where you think the core is worth 0$, or would ever be offered for such.

They plan to pull the board out, which to me is an inkling of what you pay for with IPB, the main selling point *is* the stable and dependable platform, not the board.

A hopeful dream perhaps, but not a valid one, it is still commercial property being actively developed, I don't understand how the removal of the board devalues the core in any way..

Would you, having spent the countless hours put in on that core, give it away? I highly doubt it.

It's not a question of what it's worth... it's an investment. The core has a lot of code to it, but little if anything in terms of end functionality. We can assume it will include user management, settings, the app/hook framework, template and language system... but not a lot else. There's nothing of actual value in it for the customer. The reason they pay is for the forum and content and other applications that fill specific functionality needs. That's not going to change. Opening the core would allow them to easily capitalize on other people implementing functionality that they're never going to themselves--putting a greater focus on the Marketplace (and, yes, on commissions).

[mat206]

I still fail to see where you think the core is worth 0$, or would ever be offered for such.

They plan to pull the board out, which to me is an inkling of what you pay for with IPB, the main selling point *is* the stable and dependable platform, not the board.

A hopeful dream perhaps, but not a valid one, it is still commercial property being actively developed, I don't understand how the removal of the board devalues the core in any way..

Would you, having spent the countless hours put in on that core, give it away? I highly doubt it.

Because the core is worthless without apps.. it's just a framework and nothing else. Anybody could install the core but the next step is going to be going out and buying apps for it.

And obviously yes, I would give the core away if it were me even if I spent a million man hours developing the core because the money is in the apps and the support of those apps. I would offer service contracts to those who want support for the core as well. What I would spend my time on was making sure the marketplace was super slick and integrated into the core such that people could install apps on their board just as easy as they do on their iphone/android devices. Now *that* would be a fricken sweet platform to develop for because I could actually make money with it myself as a developer. If they come up with nice ways to promote several apps at once (think of how the various app stores do it) it could work out well not only for themselves but for other third party developers as well.

Think about this.. if people already have the core installed how easy is it to buy any of the IPS apps? You are already set up and ready to go and have gone through the heaviest burden of trying out a platform which is to install it and set it up. You get to see how it works and how slick it is on the backend without paying a dime.

How about another scenario? You install core for free.. you see a FREE non-IPS app you like (say classifieds was free or something? I dunno.. not many apps are entirely independent) and install it. It's sweet.. but you want forums too. Now you're hooked in. The wallet comes open for IPS because you are already running a site on their platform.

Microsoft created a monopoly out of locking people into their platform ya know. As for developers? They're going to flock to where the money is.

And as for IPS, why do it? If they go to a typical 70/30 revenue split model for the marketplace then they are pulling in $9 on every $30 third-party app they sell in the store.. all for giving away the core for free and hooking people into their platform. As a developer I'd even pay a few extra bucks if I could get my app some type of "Gold certification" status or something that tells people that my app is well-written and supported and can be trusted (and hopefully more visibility in the marketplace as well).