Line Spacing

[wimg]

I did notice there seemed to be "extra" line spacing when I hit "Enter." As in, it did look a bit odd at first because I think older releases of IPB handled line spacing differently.

But then I got used to it, and now things look just fine.
I also didn't know I could "Shift+Enter" for a single line break, which is good to know. I have to agree with the majority here, though, that it seems pretty natural to put a double line break between paragraphs. That's how I've always written things out.

​The question really is whether you want a paragraph break each time or not. From a stylistic POV that is not always wanted, and neither is the default larger line height employed.

To a large degree this is personal taste, but it is a pain for mobile users.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

​double lines between paragraphs is common but not natural per se. Have you ever read a book with a space between every paragraph? Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say that it is natural;  what is NOT natural is that the "enter" button creates TWO line spaces. For years and years in every piece of software and web form hitting enter represents a break to a new line and not a double break. Even before computers the enter button was a "return" button and hitting it was a break to a new line.I like to break to a new line often and I don't like having this thing trying to force me to start a new paragraph with a double break.

Also if it is going to double break, why not indent also. After all a new paragraph should start with an indent.

​That is exactly my point. That and the enlarged line height.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

+1 for old ENTER, don't like also this paragraph thing with just an ENTER 

​Thank you for the support!

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

​Being a graphic designer who also designs books I can say: For printed matters there is a unique problem. The ink will show slightly through the pages and if lines on the two pages of a sheet are sitting on different heights it would look odd and distract you from reading the pages. That’s why lines in a book always sit on a so-called baseline grid. So you can’t give any paragraph or headline “a little bit” of space before or after. The lines follow each other directly or you create a space that equals a whole line, or two lines and so on.  

On the web, this baseline grid is not really necessary and therefore you can easily separate paragraphs automatically. Why not? A paragraph is one connected though. If you want to start another thought, you hit Return first and the spacing is a clear visual aid for that. In book design this visual aid is also there. But for the reasons I mentioned, it is done through a large indent on the beginning of the first line of the paragraph. But that only works for longer text and wouldn’t work very well in a forum. And that’s why clearly separated paragraphs are not a bad idea. The longer a post gets, the more clearly the thoughts are separated and that aids the reading process and makes the page more visually appealing. That is a principle that has evolved over centuries. Early books didn’t even use “returns”. The whole book would be one continuous text. I don’t understand why people here are so eager to go back to text crammed together again, when it’s not really necessary or useful.

​Why not? That's simple: for starters because of the increase in scrolling space, especially for mobile users, with their limited screen estate, and awkward scrolling control.

Clearly separated paragraphs is a very good idea. But it should be left to the writer/author to decide on paragraphs rather than the software. It is not about "going back to crammed texts", it is about ultimate control over how things are displayed. I want to determine myself when a new paragraph starts, I do not want the software to force me to do things I do not want to. And the same is true for line height.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

I don't see a single paragraph in this topic where I see text I feel would've looked better if they were just a single line-break instead of a new paragraph. All messages would've been less readable in my opinion if you just had a single line-break between what is now paragraphs. I only see some examples of double paragraph spacing that seems inappropriate.

I found this to be new and "unusual" when I wrote posts myself when I first tried the editor back in July, but to be honest I quickly got used to it and I now prefer it as the default method of enter 90% of the time.

The client area on www.invisionpower.com is still running IPS 3.4.7, while this community board is running IPS 4 Beta 6. They decided to change the behavior for version 4, as you've noted, so obviously it's still the old way in the support request editor.

Are you saying you would've wanted your post below to have looked like how I've edited it to be in the quote-box below?

​

 

​

Please note that I do agree that the enter-behavior is problematic for mobile and tablet users when they write certain types of replies, as they usually don't have a way to shift+enter. So I do see that concern and I'm personally worried that I'll get complaints on this too. But on a desktop PC, where you have the option of shift+enter, I find the behavior to be okay.

The cases I can come up with right now, where I feel a single line break is the most appropiate is for poems, lists and titles. All of which will be harder to do for mobile users now, for lists you can use the list function in the editor, but that may not be available for mobile and tablet users. (Dependent on the editor settings on the community)

I personally feel this should be addressed by IPS for mobile and tablet in some way, but I don't know how.

Example of poem with a title
Roses are red
I'm going to bed
Hold me tight
don't give me a fight

And a list with a title:
1. Game of Thrones
2. Rome
3. Sherlock

So I do agree on some of this feedback, but I don't see any cases where single lines would've been better in a majority of replies on this community board.

​No embedded quotes, but no, of course I wouldn't want my text to look like that. First of all, I want single line-heights. Secondly, I want to determine myself at all times where paragraph breaks are, with at most a single line space between the new paragraph and the preceding one, for normal writing that is.

As to poems: that is even more contentious, because space in a poem may well be part of the entire feel that is being created. Personally, I often have different spacings between paragraphs in poems, i.e., not a standard paragraph spacing, and the same is true for line spacing.

And yes, mobile users should have the possibility to use extensive formatting options as well.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

I'm going to defend @wimg here, although this isn't an IPS issue persay, it is a text editor issue. Using this method takes a bit of getting used to and as @TSP mentioned, I have seen a few double <p><p> before the paragraph begins.

I've seen this in the editor when creating a post and it creates the double <p> and in other posts here on IPS. Mobile posting in wysiwyg editors isn't the best and it can be frustrating, this just compounds to the user frustration. It's not IPS's fault, it's the fault of modern editors.

As has been mentioned by @superj707 the enter key used to be the return key and a difference existed between them. On the macintosh pages is a good example, return create a line break and enter starts a new paragraph (or is it the other way around, I can't remember). I think the understanding and difference between return and enter have been lost over the years.

Maybe the mobile browser could be a rich text editor by default?

​Thank you Craig!

For me it is not about getting used to it, it is about having control. The way the editor works now, you essentially have much less control, it is that simple. It may be the fault of modern editors, but modern editors can be tweaked individually by the individual users. With an editor like this one, that is impossible. Essentially the admin determines how it will look, and everybody else has to conform to that. That is why I am asking for what essentially are finer grained controls.

Maybe line height and LF-CR behaviour should be added to the formatting options, and should be saved per individual user, preferably in the database, as cookies do get deleted every so often.

And yes, let's hope the mobile version allows for a rich text editor, something I enabled on my board as far as I could (all but Apple stuff) - that is what my users wanted.

Kind regards, Wim

[The Jimmo]

​Your first sentence makes a lot of sense, it is the first remark I see that really provides a solution, one I personally completely forgot about.

As to whether it is easy or not to make the edit in IPS is easy, is a matter of opinion. In word any user can change the look, without affecting anybody else, in IPS it is the person who has Admin access to the theme section who can, and thereby makes it look different for everybody else.

The old way allows for people to make things look the way they want it themselves, without any interference from fixed formatting in the editor. That is what it is about.

Even using Shift-Enter still doesn't disable the 1.15 line-height. That has to be done from the ACP. I can't, for example, do that here unless I am allowed to write html., and know exactly what I am doing. Most users don't. My beef is on behalf of all those users.

Anyway, time to start playing with the theme setup in IPS 4 once again. Thanks for that tip!

Kind regards, Wim

​You're acting like you want to give your users the freedom to design and style your website. In no way is that a good thing or something you would even want to do. Even in IPB3, you controlled line-height via CSS. Nothing has changed other than the way the editor handles paragraphs. In Word, usually for business related things such as letters, SOW's, etc... a designer creates a template for your users to use and they follow that. Even in University setting, you are defined usually what font and line-height you should use. No way do users have control over what you're wanting them to.

This is GOOD. Why it has been designed this way in pretty much every editor. If there wasn't a uniformed line-height and users had the capability to do what they please, you would severely compromise readability of you forum. 

[opentype]

Clearly separated paragraphs is a very good idea. But it should be left to the writer/author to decide on paragraphs rather than the software. It is not about "going back to crammed texts", it is about ultimate control over how things are displayed. I want to determine myself when a new paragraph starts, I do not want the software to force me to do things I do not want to. And the same is true for line height.

Sorry, but when you say things like that it’s obvious that you don’t even understand what a “paragraph” is. A paragraph is structural unit – this is completely independent from any visual display of the text. The 4.0 editor doesn’t force anything upon you in that regard. In fact, if behaves exactly right and doesn’t simulate paragraphs through simple line-breaks or anything like that. (Older WYSIWYG editors did this and that is a pain in the ass)

What you are talking about is styling—how the structure is displayed on the website. Line-spacing, margins, paddings and so on. This is pure CSS styling. 

So the 4.0 editor does it exactly right. It uses the correct HTML markup without forcing anything upon the user and you as admin are free to style it however you like through CSS. So the way it is gives you exactly the “full control” you are asking for. 

 

If you think it doesn’t work well on smaller screen: no problem! Use a media query in CSS and change the paragraph margins for smaller screens. That’s takes less time than arguing about it here. ;-)

[wimg]

​You're acting like you want to give your users the freedom to design and style your website. In no way is that a good thing or something you would even want to do. Even in IPB3, you controlled line-height via CSS. Nothing has changed other than the way the editor handles paragraphs. In Word, usually for business related things such as letters, SOW's, etc... a designer creates a template for your users to use and they follow that. Even in University setting, you are defined usually what font and line-height you should use. No way do users have control over what you're wanting them to.

This is GOOD. Why it has been designed this way in pretty much every editor. If there wasn't a uniformed line-height and users had the capability to do what they please, you would severely compromise readability of you forum.

​Let me check what is _possible here, hmmm, generally speaking I can do a lot of formatting, font wise, colour, etc. What you are suggesting seems to me that we would really need to get rid of those as well?

Come on, all I am asking is that

a) I'd want a line height which is 1, not some arbitrary larger figure, and
b) that hitting the <ENTER> key works as a CR-LF, as it always did. If I want to create a new paragraph, I will hit <ENTER> twice.

And I am asking that mostly because of mobile users, as I mentioned a few times already.

Other than that, it WOULD or COULD be nice for users to be able to control line height and paragraph styling themselves, just like is possible in, e.g., Word, or any other editor.

Style, colour and font changes do actually enhance readability, if anything. After all, it is what we use in documents too, for exactly that purpose.

And in no way does that affect the design and style of "my" website, simply because it doesn't depend on that. If it would, we would be in a sorry state, if you'd ask me. And neither do I believe in some kind of design police, although there appear to be some underlying forces somewhere which apparently are trying to create a uniform look everywhere.

And here we are, making everything scalable etc., to cater for all those mobile devices, and in the mean time we make it harder on those same mobile users.

Kind regards, Wim

[wimg]

Sorry, but when you say things like that it’s obvious that you don’t even understand what a “paragraph” is. A paragraph is structural unit – this is completely independent from any visual display of the text. The 4.0 editor doesn’t force anything upon you in that regard. In fact, if behaves exactly right and doesn’t simulate paragraphs through simple line-breaks or anything like that. (Older WYSIWYG editors did this and that is a pain in the ass)

What you are talking about is styling—how the structure is displayed on the website. Line-spacing, margins, paddings and so on. This is pure CSS styling.

So the 4.0 editor does it exactly right. It uses the correct HTML markup without forcing anything upon the user and you as admin are free to style it however you like through CSS. So the way it is gives you exactly the “full control” you are asking for.

 

If you think it doesn’t work well on smaller screen: no problem! Use a media query in CSS and change the paragraph margins for smaller screens. That’s takes less time than arguing about it here. ;-)

​Please don't act in such a paternal fashion. I want to control myself when and how a paragraph appears. I don't want it forced on me. I had more control with my typewriter 30+ years ago over line height and paragraph spacing than I have now - that is how it feels. In short, it feels like a step backward.

All I ever wanted, is that line heights are set to what they ought to be, namely 1, and that hitting <ENTER> doesn't create double line spacing. I don't always want a new line to start a new paragraph, just like one doesn't want that always to happen in a book, f.e.

And the main reason I don't want it is very simple: mobile users. Everybody was extremely pleased about how ICS 4 would be the be all and end all for mobile users, with in-built scaling, etc. If there is anything that breaks usability for mobile users, it is for those users to have to scroll twice as much or more to read the same text.

And yes, I will change it, at least give it a try, for mobile and other users alike.

Kind regards, Wim

[opentype]

 I had more control with my typewriter 30+ years ago over line height and paragraph spacing than I have now - that is how it feels. In short, it feels like a step backward.

​It’s exactly the other way around: A typewriter could not differentiate between soft return and the end of a paragraph and that is the backward thing. Digital typesetting is more advanced in this regard, because it separates structure and layout. So at any time, you can globally(!) change the space which appears between lines and paragraphs. That doesn’t work with a typewriter and wanting a HTML editor to behave like a typewriter is a terrible idea. 

You can have no space between paragraphs, I can have space between paragraphs – all with the same editor and even the same content. That’s the great thing about it. It’s just styling. 

 

I don't always want a new line to start a new paragraph, just like one doesn't want that always to happen in a book, f.e.

Again, either you don’t know what a paragraph is or you must have some crazy books. Of course a book author will type unless he thinks there needs to be new paragraph and then he/she hits Return to create it. Always. How that paragraph is styled (with margins or indents or both) is a different story altogether. New lines without a new paragraph can hardly ever be found in a good book. They just don’t make sense, because the mix text structure with text styling and that should be avoided at all times.  

[TSP]

I would only agree with poems. 

Lists and titles are “structural” elements and should use the proper markup. So for lists, one should use the list function from the editor and the line-space should come from the settings of the ol and ul tags, not from manually choosing soft or hard line breaks. If headlines are wanted in a forum, one should install a CKEditor plugin or button that actually inserts h tags. The owner of the forum then might choose that there is no space after these h tags. 

​The problem is that the member is dependent on the board administrators to actually do these things, instead of the member finding a solution that works regardless of the board they're on. And the board administrators might not implement a solution, either because they don't know how they could do it, don't have the time to put into it or for another legitimate reason 

For example, as a member here on this community board I've found myself in the need to add a short and sweet list to a topic from my mobile. I would love to do it in the structural appropiate way by using the list-button, but it's not available for the mobile editor. And even if it had been, it would likely be difficult (as in: tedious) to activate it in certain replies, because you have to scroll up to the toolbar of the editor each time you want to activate and deactivate. On a desktop PC (and tablet) you'll eventually get the same problem, but you'll have more time before the problem presents itself, in combination with the fact you're more aware of the toolbar at all times, for the same reason.

A partial fix for this issue would of course be to add the list-button to the mobile view editor. But in the case of the community board for IPS, they'll likely not listen to my request of using anything other than the default settings, because they probably prefer to keep these forums as close to the default software as possible.

You would get the same problem by requiring the administrator to implement a title tag. Besides, I meant more like a "title", as I for example would consider a short line of text like the below, followed by : to be a sort of title / short explanation of the paragraph to follow, it's not sure I would want to make a "big deal" out of it by using a title tag. 

I'll give you an example:
Here is the example.

I do agree with you on most things here opentype, for example, I personally don't feel there is anything wrong with the current behavior for a desktop PC and I agree on the things you say regarding structure from a technical standpoint and so on. But for replies from mobile and tablet there are certain replies that'll trigger annoyed typers as they try to type their reply on the mobile, because they don't have a way to shift+enter and they usually don't have editor buttons like lists or title tags. 

You can't solve it with CSS rules specific to mobile sized screens to remove any space between paragraphs either (when on mobile), then desktop PC readers will just be annoyed at all the double spacing from mobile users  (And the opposite effect for mobile readers). (I personally don't have any issue with the default spacing between paragraphs on mobile either btw, just saw another one of your replies to wimg)

[SJ77]

I think a lot of people are arguing that double space looks nice between paragraphs. However, I don't think anyone is disputing that it looks nice.
I think double space looks great! Nobody likes a giant wall of text.

My concern is over control. I like being in control of when I get single break or double break. I think enter should give me one break instead of 2. Let me make the layout how I want it without this goofy hold shift stuff.
 

[SJ77]

Double line breaks while great, need to be limited.

Some people have the habit of breaking to a new line often, to control the flow.

Breaking to a new line is useful when you don't need a new paragraph but don't want to many things on one line.

Now I no longer have an easy way to control when I get a single break.

Here is what a bunch of text looks like with to many double spaces.

It actually makes things look worse and more difficult to read

This is why forcing a bunch of these into the editor might not be so great

because you end up with something just as bad as a wall of text

Something likely nobody is going to read

TL;DR to many double spaces looks horrible.

 

 

and now here is the same thing with single line breaks

 

 

Double line breaks while great, need to be limited.
Some people have the habit of breaking to a new line often, to control the flow.
Breaking to a new line is useful when you don't need a new paragraph but don't want to many things on one line.
Now I no longer have an easy way to control when I get a single break.
Here is what a bunch of text looks like with to many double spaces.
It actually makes things look worse and more difficult to read
This is why forcing a bunch of these into the editor might not be so great
because you end up with something just as bad as a wall of text
Something likely nobody is going to read
TL;DR to many double spaces looks horrible.

(which is better from the two above)

[opentype]

 

(which is better from the two above)

​Both are equally awful. 

[wimg]

I think a lot of people are arguing that double space looks nice between paragraphs. However, I don't think anyone is disputing that it looks nice.
I think double space looks great! Nobody likes a giant wall of text.

My concern is over control. I like being in control of when I get single break or double break. I think enter should give me one break instead of 2. Let me make the layout how I want it without this goofy hold shift stuff.
 

​Exactly. I like control too. That is what it is about. Not about terminology, as some people feel the need to point out.

Kind regards, Wim

[opentype]

My concern is over control. I like being in control of when I get single break or double break. 

You have just made a post where you have proven that you are in control of creating either soft returns or hard returns. What more control do you need?

[SJ77]

You have just made a post where you have proven that you are in control of creating either soft returns or hard returns. What more control do you need?

​I didn't say it was impossible, it's just a pain in the a$$ under the current setup. Let's empower people with tools that work easily and clean. Tools that work exactly as users expect them to work. Honestly if I had not read this thread I would not have known about the shift thing.

[SJ77]

honestly though, can anyone here honestly say that one space verses two matters much? Seems like very minute thing to be concerned with. We have a few different opinions but I would be shocked if anyone is losing sleep over this.

[opentype]

​I didn't say it was impossible, it's just a pain in the a$$ under the current setup. Let's empower people with tools that work easily and clean. Tools that work exactly as users expect them to work. Honestly if I had not read this thread I would not have known about the shift thing.

​Like “wimg” you are missing the point: the “tool”, in this case the editor, is working fine — “easily and clean”. Nothing about the editor needs to change and no users needs to learn special keyboard commands. What you two don’t like is the CSS styling – so basically just some theme default values like colors, widths and whatnot. The paragraph style can be changed with something simple as

p { margin:0; padding:0; }

 

[Marcher Technologies]

Throwing my hat in. Desktop browsing is fine. Having needed to use an ipad to post bug reports and replies for a few days.... it's beyond annoying on mobile, for the very reasons mentioned in posts above. One cannot do a shift+enter, and as a result the text becomes swiftly unmanageable when actually making a post. Manually formatted lists are in themselves impossible, I had taken to omitting such and just replying with yes or no to each item in order(yes, no, yes, etc) instead of being able to make it clear.

[wimg]

Opentype, I think you're missing our point:

Why on earth would we have to change css? It shouldn't be necessary. It is good to know it is fairly easily doable, but why should something that worked well be changed? Especially, as I mentioned before, for mobile users?

Why on earth is everybody set on following WP, MS, or whoever else wants to follow their style?

Regards, Wim

[wimg]

Throwing my hat in. Desktop browsing is fine. Having needed to use an ipad to post bug reports and replies for a few days.... it's beyond annoying on mobile, for the very reasons mentioned in posts above. One cannot do a shift+enter, and as a result the text becomes swiftly unmanageable when actually making a post. Manually formatted lists are in themselves impossible, I had taken to omitting such and just replying with yes or no to each item in order(yes, no, yes, etc) instead of being able to make it clear.

​Thanks, Robert.

That is what I have been trying to say all along. And 40% of my members, and I don't know how many Guests, use a mobile to browse my site, which has about 5 million page views per month. They complain already as it is, with the limitations of any mobile skin I have tried (well, short of creating my own, so far). This is going to make it a lot worse. All that and I have been promising them the next version of the board software will be much better for mobile users.

Warm regards, Wim

[opentype]

It is good to know it is fairly easily doable, but why should soemthign that worked well be changed?

Sorry, that is not a valid argument. You claim that it “worked” before and now needs to be “changed” to work again. This is simply not true. You can’t just claim that your taste in regards to paragraph spacing is the one that “works” and other possibilities do not work. Again: line-spacing is a styling setting. Nothing else. On my 4.0 site I have even increased the space well over the default settings used here. 

 

Why on earth is everybody set on following WP, MS, or whoever else wants to follow their style?

I have no idea who WP and MS are. But I am not “following” anyone. I am a professional graphic designer who designs websites and books for a living and who has even written books about typesetting. Its my profession to know how these things work and how they should be done – in a technical sense and in terms of design and legibility. And from that point of view, there is nothing wrong with automatically separating paragraphs through any means – may it be indents or margins. 

[SJ77]

Since when does hitting "enter" mean new paragraph? That's news to me. I am pretty sure it is now and has always meant, break to a new line. I think that is where the complications are. Nobody here has a problem with spacing for a new paragraph. We also don't have a problem with professional styling for text. What we have a problem with is not being able to use enter for simple line breaks.