Feature Request: points system

[Wolfie]

See how popular of ipoint module is?

and also see how LITTLE IPB's reputation system is used?

you know the answer...

currency idea give a LOT of flexibility for board owners

No one is disputing that a points system is popular. What is being said (and obviously ignored) is the fact that it wouldn't benefit enough boards to be worth the inclusion. You also have to consider that IPS tries to keep IPB as a professional product and to be honest, a points system (which is mainly used for game boards) isn't very professional. A pre-included account balance (account funds, whatever), with an account history (credits and debits) could be useful for businesses and for boards that want to offer products and services. For boards that add on shop modules or for points systems that offer to let someone convert

[ikillbill]

not too sure why "mainly used for game board" could lead to unprofessional, if you look at facebook, GAME is one of very important factors that keep people hang on there


Not to mention that why people always think ponits=game use?

one example, We have a advertising board, we want people to make "points" first and spend "points" on every ads they make.

[Wolfie]

not too sure why "mainly used for game board" could lead to unprofessional, if you look at facebook, GAME is one of very important factors that keep people hang on there

Not to mention that why people always think ponits=game use?

one example, We have a advertising board, we want people to make "points" first and spend "points" on every ads they make.

FB: Aren't all those games being created by third parties?

Points are popular for use in game-based setups, so it's no surprise when people associate points with games.

Point systems have banks with them (you can put points into the bank or take them out). How would a bank benefit your members with earning points to spend on ads? In a game setup, a bank would be to protect someones 'cash' from being lost to a battle.

With a built in account balance (or currency) system, it would open up possibilities, including what you are looking for. An add-on could be made to add credit to their account for spending on ads.

[Michael]

not too sure why "mainly used for game board" could lead to unprofessional, if you look at facebook, GAME is one of very important factors that keep people hang on there

Not to mention that why people always think ponits=game use?

one example, We have a advertising board, we want people to make "points" first and spend "points" on every ads they make.

Then use one of the points modifications for this, that's what they are created for.

People want us to keep cramming features into the product, then they complain when it runs .02 seconds slower than IP.Board 2.3.6. This particular topic has been discussed to death for years. To those who want a built-in points system, it's been discussed before. I think it's pretty safe to say this will never be added as a standard feature to the product.

[Tanax]

Then use one of the points modifications for this, that's what they are created for.

People want us to keep cramming features into the product, then they complain when it runs .02 seconds slower than IP.Board 2.3.6. This particular topic has been discussed to death for years. To those who want a built-in points system, it's been discussed before. I think it's pretty safe to say this will never be added as a standard feature to the product.

Doesn't the fact that it has been discussed to death tell you that there are more than enough people willing to fight for this feature? Doesn't that tell you that it is a well-sought feature? iPoints might be used primarily for game-boards, but I'm sure you guy can come up with some sort of points/currency system that is flexible enough to satisfy more than just the "gamers". And if not, then let people disable it. I'm sure not everyone wanted reputation aswell, did you guys say no because of that? No. You just added the option to disable it - which every feature really should have since it's impossible to meet every need. I'm just saying that you seem to be saying no to this idea just because it's been used by game-boards in the past and that you can't seem to think of any other use for it.

[Michael]

The 'discussed to death' part indicates that every so often one or two people come forward and ask it to be added to the base product, and then everyone else disagrees with them.

I'm not the one who makes the decisions as to whether or not this will be added, but honestly it would shock me if it were. For every person who loves this, 10 people hate it.

[bfarber]

I don't personally see a points system making it into IPB. If you are interested in a points system, I would recommend using one of the available modifications.

There are literally millions of possible things we *could* do that *someone* would have a use for. Our job is to go through these ideas and try to pick out the ideas we feel will have the most benefit and appeal to the most number of customers. Sure, a points system comes up now and then. But typically it's 2 or 3 people asking for it, and many people asking us not to add it. Ultimately, the time it would take to code such a feature, one which I truly believe the vast majority of our customers have no use for, can be better spent coding other features that everyone can benefit from. That's just my view.

[Wolfie]

For every person who loves this, 10 people hate it.

I like having a points system and speaking as someone who uses a points system (albeit not that much), I feel it's better off as an add-on. I still can't understand why people think it should be integrated. I wouldn't mind if it were, but I'd rather other features get worked on.

There are literally millions of possible things we *could* do that *someone* would have a use for. Our job is to go through these ideas and try to pick out the ideas we feel will have the most benefit and appeal to the most number of customers.

An excellent point. Add in my comment above and it's just common sense to stop and wonder, what would be the point of pre-including it? I doubt NBC or Nvidia would be able to make use of it, same with other well known businesses/companies that use IPB.

The 'discussed to death' part indicates that every so often one or two people come forward and ask it to be added to the base product, and then everyone else disagrees with them.

Sure, a points system comes up now and then. But typically it's 2 or 3 people asking for it, and many people asking us not to add it.

In all fairness, I have counted four people in this thread who are in favor of it. However, even though I download and install a points system when I upgrade to a new version, I can't see myself being in favor of it being pre-included. IPB is a product designed to look/feel and work on a professional level and a points system just doesn't fit with that. A currency system of some sort (ie, account funds, sort of like paypal/namecheap/etc) I could see and think should be considered, but that's a far cry from being a points system as it would be aimed at using actual money for products and services.

[Tanax]

I don't personally see a points system making it into IPB. If you are interested in a points system, I would recommend using one of the available modifications.

There are literally millions of possible things we *could* do that *someone* would have a use for. Our job is to go through these ideas and try to pick out the ideas we feel will have the most benefit and appeal to the most number of customers. Sure, a points system comes up now and then. But typically it's 2 or 3 people asking for it, and many people asking us not to add it. Ultimately, the time it would take to code such a feature, one which I truly believe the vast majority of our customers have no use for, can be better spent coding other features that everyone can benefit from. That's just my view.

Well, if you always disregard the idea and tells the one who made the thread that it's no use, of course people will eventually stop proposing it.
If the thread always gets filled with negative feedback from people who can't see even one use of the system, of course people will eventually stop fighting for it.

If you instead tell us the reason why you can't see any use of a credits/currency system? A so called "point" system is far to limited after reading your feedback. It's better to both call it something else and also extend the systems' features so everyone can make use of it.

Just for the record, sorry if I sound harsh. I'm not angry, I'm just trying to see your point of view but I keep failing.

[Tanax]

IPB is a product designed to look/feel and work on a professional level and a points system just doesn't fit with that. A currency system of some sort (ie, account funds, sort of like paypal/namecheap/etc) I could see and think should be considered, but that's a far cry from being a points system as it would be aimed at using actual money for products and services.

Not to sound like a douche, but the name is just a formality. Points/Currency/Credits/what ever is basically the same thing.
But I agree that the system should be extended beyond the features of iPoints. That IS aimed towards game-boards mostly. IPS is a brilliant company and like I said before, I'm sure they can come up with some sort of credits/points/w.e system that will have more use than just by game-boards.

[Wolfie]

Not to sound like a douche, but the name is just a formality. Points/Currency/Credits/what ever is basically the same thing.

But I agree that the system should be extended beyond the features of iPoints. That IS aimed towards game-boards mostly. IPS is a brilliant company and like I said before, I'm sure they can come up with some sort of credits/points/w.e system that will have more use than just by game-boards.

Look at the different points systems for IPB and even vB. They have things like on hand/in bank balances, points per post/thread, etc. THAT is something useless to put into IPB as a default.

A currency system would be more of an account balance with transaction logs and would deal with (at least intended) real cash. It would not be a replacement for a points system (which would deal with points/credits/chips/etc and have what I mentioned before). That would still be an Add-On. The currency concept is more of simple a pre-included account funds management system. How the person adds or spends the funds would still have to be handled by add-ons (IP.Subscription for example). It wouldn't include adding credits for posts/threads made or anything else. Perhaps a way for one person to transfer funds to another member, but that'd be stretching it.

[bfarber]

Well, if you always disregard the idea and tells the one who made the thread that it's no use, of course people will eventually stop proposing it.

If the thread always gets filled with negative feedback from people who can't see even one use of the system, of course people will eventually stop fighting for it.

If you instead tell us the reason why you can't see any use of a credits/currency system? A so called "point" system is far to limited after reading your feedback. It's better to both call it something else and also extend the systems' features so everyone can make use of it.

Just for the record, sorry if I sound harsh. I'm not angry, I'm just trying to see your point of view but I keep failing.

I'm not trying to be negative or disregard the idea. I'm trying to give you honest feedback about the suggestion from OUR side of the fence. We try to relay to customers, to the extent possible, if we feel suggestions have merit, or don't have merit, or aren't likely to make it into the product. It may seem like we're disregarding the idea to you, but honestly I'm just looking out for you - I'd rather say straight up "it's not likely to make it into the product" so you know that you should look into a third party customization, than string you along making you think it might be there in the next version, etc. :)

The problem with a points/currency/whatever system is that it's very specific. We sell community forum software. We sell software designed to allow someone to install it, and start a discussion board. I can understand that some users may want to enhance that experience by offering some sort of trade-able/redeemable "credit" (in theory, getting your users to participate more), but it's not really a "professional" appearing feature. A bank or points system is a type of script associated with hobby/gamer forums, like it or not. :P As Wolfie pointed out, you're not going to see nbc or nvidia typically wanting such modifications.

We try to keep the product slightly more "generic" than that (for lack of a better term) to have broader appeal. We want as many people as possible to look at IPB and say "that looks like the perfect forum software for me" and once you start adding in these niche features, you start loosing that broad appeal (even if you can turn it off). Add onto that the fact that, as I said, we've got millions of suggestions, many of which are great suggestions that do have broad appeal, and something like a points system unfortunately just doesn't rank up there with some of the other things we could spend our time on. We have a finite number of developers and a finite amount of time to work on new features, so we have to take up the features most users would have a use for, and a points system just isn't one of those features in my mind.

[Wolfie]

The problem with a points/currency/whatever system is that it's very specific.

If you're referring to the currency system I've mentioned, it wouldn't be very specific. It'd be more of an account funds (or balance or whatever), along with a history of transactions (credits/debits to the account). Other than that, it'd be a bare system. Then on IP.Subscriptions end, it could be used (new feature would have to be added) to add funds to the account and could even use funds from the account to pay for a subscription. As for making stores or something to convert cash to points, buying products/services, gaining funds from making posts, etc, that'd be for add-ons to handle, not IP.Board itself. No 'bank' or anything else associated with it.

Only other thing that I can think of to have included would be a system call for conducting an actual transaction (so add-ons can use the function to declare an amount and description, the currency system would apply it and return information and apply the transaction to the built in log) - this would make it so that add-ons don't have to make their own routines to handle transactions.

Nothing fancy, although I would imagine that a transaction history would require the most work, being able to view recent, time period and search results.

I'm thinking that if it's added, it might be 3.2.0 when it's introduced (although a 3.1.1 or 3.1.2, etc, would be nice).

[bfarber]

If you're referring to the currency system I've mentioned, it wouldn't be very specific. It'd be more of an account funds (or balance or whatever), along with a history of transactions (credits/debits to the account). Other than that, it'd be a bare system.

You can rename it whatever you like but at the end of the end of the day, the VAST majority of our customers have no use for points, or credits, or account balance, or bank balance, or whatever it's labeled. :)

You can make it as generic as you want, but the fact remains that this is NOT a core feature to a forum application.

Then on IP.Subscriptions end, it could be used (new feature would have to be added) to add funds to the account and could even use funds from the account to pay for a subscription. As for making stores or something to convert cash to points, buying products/services, gaining funds from making posts, etc, that'd be for add-ons to handle, not IP.Board itself. No 'bank' or anything else associated with it.

I can see value in having an "account balance" feature in something like subscription manager, but that's mostly separate from what's being requested here.

[Wolfie]

You can rename it whatever you like but at the end of the end of the day, the VAST majority of our customers have no use for points, or credits, or account balance, or bank balance, or whatever it's labeled. :)

You can make it as generic as you want, but the fact remains that this is NOT a core feature to a forum application.

I can see value in having an "account balance" feature in something like subscription manager, but that's mostly separate from what's being requested here.

What I'm suggesting wouldn't be a points system, it would be meant strictly to be a monetary value, which businesses could use if needed. If someone needs a points system, they'd still need to install a points system and it would have it's own version of a balance. Something that is different and separate from a points system.

[bfarber]

What I'm suggesting wouldn't be a points system, it would be meant strictly to be a monetary value, which businesses could use if needed. If someone needs a points system, they'd still need to install a points system and it would have it's own version of a balance. Something that is different and separate from a points system.

If you had to take a guess, how many of our business customers do you *really* think use IPB as their primary "account balance" software? Or would use IPB for this purpose if it had an account balance feature built in? Not many - they have their own transaction management software in place already.

That said, something like a monetary account balance could have value in subscription manager (think I've agreed with that in this topic elsewhere already), but that's a different discussion.

[Wolfie]

If you had to take a guess, how many of our business customers do you *really* think use IPB as their primary "account balance" software?

All of them? (w00t)

they have their own transaction management software in place already.

If it's available within the board software, they may be able to make use of it. Either by modifying it to call on their existing software or perhaps migrating to it and using the other software as an extension.

Although to be fair, it doesn't have anything to do with a point system, which is what a handful (4 fingers and a thumb) are asking for. Just thought it was worth mentioning as it could open up some possibilities.

[ikillbill]

just curious, developing "reputation" system is not too specific? as fas as it could be seen, possible usages on points is much wider than reputation system

just curious again, how many of members actally use "reputation" here? and how many board owners actually turn off reputation system in the end? do you really think more than 50% of peole are using it?

members are wondering, if I get high reputation, so what? could i use that reputation to make more interactions on forum? such as "shop", "upgrade", "download" or anything else?

If you want to save energy and stay on core, I don;t see the reasons why reputation system is further developed (personal thoughts)

[Wolfie]

just curious, developing "reputation" system is not too specific? as fas as it could be seen, possible usages on points is much wider than reputation system

just curious again, how many of members actally use "reputation" here? and how many board owners actually turn off reputation system in the end? do you really think more than 50% of peole are using it?

members are wondering, if I get high reputation, so what? could i use that reputation to make more interactions on forum? such as "shop", "upgrade", "download" or anything else?

If you want to save energy and stay on core, I don;t see the reasons why reputation system is further developed (personal thoughts)

The idea behind a reputation is that the higher your reputation, the more people either agree with you or believe that you have made valid points (in a post/topic), been helpful, etc. It's not a reward system. There is a clear distinction between a reputation system and a points/credits system. Reputation isn't spendable. The reputation system here is used. If you click on a number of active members (that make more than 10 posts a week), you're very unlikely to find them with 0 rep points.

[ikillbill]

That is what I thought too, I have no issues to tell the difference
However, this also shows reputation is limited to what it is, specific and not as expandable as so-called "points" system

Functions and incentives to create "interactions" are ususally considered more important for forum system? which is barely been seens on reputation system

I am not saying reputation is bad, it is just interesting to see why points system is called "specific" while reputation is not...

[Wolfie]

That is what I thought too, I have no issues to tell the difference

However, this also shows reputation is limited to what it is, specific and not as expandable as so-called "points" system

Functions and incentives to create "interactions" are ususally considered more important for forum system? which is barely been seens on reputation system

I am not saying reputation is bad, it is just interesting to see why points system is called "specific" while reputation is not...

Many boards of various interests use rep systems. It's something that can be used in just about any environment. A points system, which is primarily used with boards that deal with gaming of some sort, are specific. You wouldn't go onto a religious board and find a point system in place where you could buy prayers with the points. But you could find a rep system where people rep others for good deeds.

[sergiu]

just curious, developing "reputation" system is not too specific? as fas as it could be seen, possible usages on points is much wider than reputation system

just curious again, how many of members actally use "reputation" here? and how many board owners actually turn off reputation system in the end? do you really think more than 50% of peole are using it?

members are wondering, if I get high reputation, so what? could i use that reputation to make more interactions on forum? such as "shop", "upgrade", "download" or anything else?

If you want to save energy and stay on core, I don;t see the reasons why reputation system is further developed (personal thoughts)

very good point of view. I tried to say the same thing but choosing the hard way and I name it "point system" . :) the reputation system looks to be used just for fun if we can't assign a specific value for it (like you said, downloads, shop, etc)

[bfarber]

No one said reputation won't be expanded in the future mind you. ;)

[kmk]

On 11/2/2010 at 11:10 AM, Wolfie said:

If it's available within the board software, they may be able to make use of it

I would like to apply in my proyect, but If I see the feature will not develop for better and for more professional use, of course for me should not considered and thinking out other balance or payment system will be focus to development.