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Linux-Is-Best

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Posts posted by Linux-Is-Best

  1. 5 hours ago, Arantor said:

    Honestly, that's not what happens in practice. The majority will simply use and grow to work with whatever the default is set to, even if the default is a functionally inferior version, as long as the minimum feature set for creators is maintained.

    My source for this is Moodle - which made a transition from TinyMCE to its own home-grown editor Atto a few years ago. While inferior functionally (objectively) compared to the legacy version of TinyMCE they were using, the reality is that Atto did enough to support most things that people needed, and the community plugged the remaining holes as they saw it.

    My source for the other end of the scale is one of the Moodle derivatives, which followed the TinyMCE -> Atto route and in the last couple of versions introduced their own editor to replace Atto, called Weka. All three editors remain available, but Weka provides zero table support which is a deal-breaker for some content creators. (Their justification is that they intend content to be consumed by mobile and their mobile app does not support tables.)

    Basically as long as whatever editor is not so broken that it's deemed unusable by the majority, whatever the vendor does will just be accepted because people will generally move with change.

    A new editor, in whatever capacity, is a hefty undertaking to consider not only users' needs (all sets of users) but also to consider security of whatever formatting is being done, as well as side functionality such as uploaded/embedded media.

    I will be perfectly content with nearly any editor outside of CKEditor.  It feels worth repeating, but both v4 and v5 I find inadequate for both the front end and back end, so nearly anything would be an improvement.  As you pointed out, and as others have noted, changing to v5 or any other editor will be a significant change regardless (either way).  While CKEditor would argue that v5 was a near rewrite or complete rewrite (I forget which), it's still more or less the same editor by the same development, making many of the same mistakes (and issues). That is too bad because I did buy into all the hype three (3) years ago (2018) when they release v5.

    But I digress.  I do like your alternative viewpoint. The idea of making it so the system was "plug and play." If you could swap out the editor as nearly as easily as you could an add-on, that would indeed be impressive. While I did initially say, I have no particular personal preference beyond just replacing CKEditor. If I could have my pick, I would likely jump onto Redactor Editor.

  2. 14 hours ago, Matt said:

    We have considered this and we would only make it so the member could request it, but not actually do it. There'd need to be a cooling off period, etc. Easy in the heat of the moment to delete everything and then ask for backups the next day.

     

    Ron Burgundy Regret GIF

    A cooling period would be best if it did happen automatically, but only after "X" many days, and they had the option to cancel beforehand. That would give the members time to cool off and change their minds or commit to their choice. Ideally, not requiring staff involvement would be preferred (in my opinion).

  3. 15 hours ago, IP-Gamers said:

    This can already be done using third-party modules.

    The request was to include this into the core and away from 3rd party. 😉

    It would be perfectly acceptable for this to be a feature that the admin could enable or disable, though—allowing you to decide what you believe is best for your community.

  4. 3 minutes ago, Stuart Silvester said:

    This would be a permission not a group setting, click the padlock icon there

    I assumed the permission would have been available when you clicked on to edit the group.  Little details, eh? lol 😉

     

  5. 13 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

    image.png.c9f9d094572123f60d1cd509c172a83c.png

    While you wait?

    🤔 That's worded in an odd way.  But OK.  -- Thank you.

    But in the guest group, where is the option to allow you to post? I see no option in

    /?app=core&module=members&controller=groups  > Guest

  6. I wish for the option (in a future release) to allow guest posting. In our modern age, when I say 'forum,' many younger adults roll their eyes and envision a lengthy registration process so that they can post their thoughts and opinions.  I have the experience of growth and productivity by allowing guests to post, who often join after, having already enjoyed the experience of my community (risk-free).  I believe this option would benefit others.

  7. I wish for the option (in a future release) to disable any and all IP address logging.  In 2021 folks change IP addresses as easily as opening a new browser window tab.  I see no point, and it only slows down the site to resolve addresses while adding more to the database. 

  8. I wish for the option (in a future release) to disable any and all outgoing e-mails from the system. Have you lost your password? Make a new account. Want to be notified? Log in and check your notifications. The ideal setup would be for there to be no outgoing e-mail at all. I notice there is already the option not requiring e-mail confirmation when registering (that's a good start).

  9. On 5/18/2021 at 1:54 PM, Arantor said:

    the question is whether you care most about the creators and giving them all the options, or the commenters on content.

    Yes (both). 😉

    Generally, I envision something modern, updated regularly for both browser compatibility and fixes (including mobile use), and something that can be developed around reasonably effortlessly (both for Invision devs and 3rd party). CKEditor does not fit that bill.  There are many alternatives, and I hope when Invision Community 5.0 is on the table, a new editor will be considered.

    On 5/18/2021 at 1:54 PM, Arantor said:

    Tell you what I'd do at this point: I'd make it pluggable and let users decide what they want to use, since they all interchange raw HTML at this point, why not just let the site admins pick which one(s) they want to use - allow for CKEditor 5 for admins, and I dunno, QuillJS for regular users? (Quill has the advantage that it's deliberately set up to have a limited surface area and focus on what it offers rather than trying to be rich and detailed)

    As cool as I think that would be, I question how easy that would be to support. The consumer (you and I) would love it. But I cannot imagine Invison support would feel too good every time someone changed editors and discovered an issue. I imagine they would spend countless time trying to determine whether the problem was with their code or one of several editors and how and where the issue lay.  But I do like the idea, even though I imagine it could be a nightmare for support. 🙃

  10. On 5/18/2021 at 2:31 PM, Matt said:

    I'd go back to plain text with Markdown.

    Old School Deal With It GIF

     

    One thing we do want to do is do something extra for Pages. The functions you need for most topics/replies is vastly different to what you will need for pages construction.

    A markdown editor would be an acceptable alternative https://stackedit.io/ 

    demo: https://stackedit.io/app

     

  11. 1 hour ago, Ryan Ashbrook said:

    That's fair - however, I should note that the handling of banned members has not changed between the two versions.

    I am sure the handling of the privacy settings has not changed either, but that hasn't stopped my online status from changing on its own. With respect, bugs happen. They are not intentional, and no one means for them to come to pass.

    4.6 is currently a public alpha here on the live support site. Before it reaches a public beta, I intended to be helpful and perhaps a little useful in tracking down all that I can. It is something I generally love doing during my free time (test pre-release software). Everyone has to have a hobby, right? 

    I had presumed to do so (here) would be welcomed as it could aid in releasing a more stable product once completed. But I am gathering you see my request as a bit unusual, and I do apologize. 

    Thanks for the follow-up. And as always, for your time and consideration. 😀

  12. 47 minutes ago, Arantor said:

    There is one option that could be considered and I am here to... firmly... attempt to discourage it.

    It is possible to roll your own editor from scratch. SMF did it back in the day for 2.0 though it was realised how much pain it would be to maintain and it will be dropped in 2.1 (and the bbcode-based editor they moved to has many of the 'standard' WYSIWYG editor issues that most contentEditable based editors have). The LMS Moodle rolled its own a few years ago to get away from TinyMCE but it's not without its pain, and even now it does some strange things - which is awkward given that it is implemented throughout the platform everywhere for basically any non-trivial text entry. Some very strange bugs manifested.

    IPS has the technical skills in house to roll their own editor... please don't.

    Would I suggest CKEditor 5? I don't know. Having done extensive stuff in CKEditor 4 in the past, I know I have huge reservations using CKEditor again in a project - but I have similar ones for using TinyMCE as well for much the same reason - they're pretty massive and bring their own maintenance nightmares.

    Gutenberg on the other hand I'd firmly discourage for a general purpose editing experience; it's viable for admin level content creation. IPS Pages for example potentially might leverage something on that scale - but for general posting? Probably not.

    Thank you for bringing this up. I completely agree. 💡

    The ordeal from that particular development (Simple Machines Forums) was a nightmare. It is still a nightmare, and the development has been working on v2.1 for over a decade with no release in sight.  I agree. Their efforts in trying to take on their own editor have more or less killed that development. I do not think anyone here has suggested that Invision try to do the same (nor should they).

    The suggestion was that Invision looks into deploying a different editor and has nothing remotely associated with asking them to develop their own. I don't think anyone would wish for that (I certainly would not).

    As you pointed out, CKEditor has, throughout the years, left a lot to be desired. I suggested that another editor be considered because I also have huge reservations about using CKEditor again in a project. When I started using CKEditor 5, I was hopeful. I bought into the hype that it was a redesigned editor built from the ground up. But that hope has dwindled and is long gone. Many of the issues I had with CKEditor, including its development phase and cycle, carried on. Because at the end of the day, it is still the same development by overall the same company with the same developers, making some of the same mistakes.

    Thank you for adding your thoughts on the matter. I am very grateful you brought that up. 👍

  13. Please forgive the odd request, but if someone within the Invision would be so kind as to please active and then ban the user account @Banned-User-Test that would be most helpful.  It is my sincere intention to test the community from a banned user perspective. I like to be thorough when testing a new product in development.

    Thank you in advance for indulging my particularly eccentric request.

  14. On 5/13/2021 at 5:54 AM, Sonya* said:

    I think there are two different use cases:

    • Editor for user-generated content. Should be simple, not too many options, clear and foolproof. I think that the actual IPS editor fulfills the requirement.
    • Editor for articles wrote by admin. Should be powerful, have many options (text positioning, blocks, columns, grids, custom code pieces, custom styles, extendable with SEO and other plugins, have additional extensions via Marketplace etc.) For this case, the actual IPS editor is not enough. 

     

    I use CKEditor 5 already on another development (outside of Invision). As an editor for user-generated content, it sometimes gets in the way and often in more ways than its competitors. I accept that no editor (or software in general) will be perfect. Issues happen. It is, as they say, 'an imperfect world.' But I have discovered through experience just how much more imperfect CKEditor can be.  

     

    I am not going to tell you it is the worse editor on the market. But it is also not the greatest either, and I believe that opinion has gone well beyond just a personal preference. I continuously receive comments and issues from users about the editor, notably how it will render vastly differently between mobile browsers and browser versions excessively. This wouldn't be so bad if we did not have to wait months for updates. Experiencing issues that can last months on the internet is painful. On average, 2-4 months between patch fixes. https://github.com/ckeditor/ckeditor5/releases and https://ckeditor.com/cke4/release-notes Add in the fact that a development like Invision needs to test these patch fixes before releasing them. And you have another 1-2 months on top of your wait (for an average of a 3-6 month turnaround).

     

    When you compare CKEditor's release cycle to Redactor, for example, which releases a patch between 1-2 months (sometimes every few weeks), you begin to understand that a more active and modern development will experience less of a turnaround. Even when incorporating the time used by a development like Invision to test things out on their end. https://imperavi.com/redactor/log/

     

    I absolutely agree. When looking for an editor for articles written by admin, we can do better. But I also believe when looking for an editor for user-generated content, we can also do better than CKEditor. An editor should go largely unnoticed and be simple and easy to use, as you have said. I agree. On the surface, one would assume that should be true for CKEditor. But from experience, it (CKEditor) is what often gets in the way, and the resolves are few and far between.

     

     

  15. 1 hour ago, Mr 13 said:

    It took me a while to realize that the whole page was the demo and that you could change anything on the page.  Usually, when I see an editor demo, they confine it into a box somewhere on the page, not the whole page.  I am not complaining. I am only pointing out that fact, so others who visit your suggestion are not confused about where the demo is located.  😉

  16. 4 hours ago, jesuralem said:

    I honestly don't give a sh*t about what editor is used as long the user experience is satisfactory, and I think it is at the moment.

    Of course if migrating to V5 requires as much work as migrating to another editor IPS should definitely benchmark all options and I have no reason to believe they won't. But it is really their problem in the end.

    Yes.

    I invite everyone to check out the suggested demo I linked in my OP post.  Please, do, test the page load times, responsiveness, and mobile usage of the editors.  For those of you who are more skilled and who are able, I also invite you to check out the underlined code.  Do compare and see for yourself (absolutely).

    These, of course, are only a small handful of possibilities.  There are many other alternative editors available, and if anyone would like to suggest something else, please do.

     

  17. 4 hours ago, Matt said:

    We're very much aware of CKEditor 5.

    As mentioned above, the migration to v5 isn't a simple case of dropping in the new files. We'd need to re-code all of our custom plugins that handle many things including embedding, drag and drop uploading and much more.

    CKEditor 4 is supported until 2023. While CKEditor 5 brings many useful new things, it's not urgent enough for us to "down tools" and focus a 6-12 week block on it.

    It's on our roadmap along with other javascript improvements that we want to develop and deploy.

    Hello @Matt

    Thank you for following up with my requested inquiry (and feature request to change the editor in the future).  I understand we have two (2) years to consider this, plenty of time for the development team to explore their options. In fact, that is why I made the request now, as opposed to later. I understood changing an editor would be an in-depth process and not a decision that could be made hastily. So it made perfect sense to make my inquiry now, as opposed to making this inquiry moments before CKEditor becomes the end of life.

    I am currently using CKEditor 5 in another development. I have not been amused anymore than I am with CKEditor 4.  Most notably, the issues I experience have to do with how CKEditor works with mobile designs and layouts.  As I previously said, ideally, you want your editor not to be the focus of your development. By that, I mean to say the editor should blend effortlessly in the background as something you do not notice (an afterthought). So many developments no longer use CKEditor because the editor itself often gets in the way. I cannot count how many times when I have heard or experienced why something was not functioning right because of the editor. Or why something could not be developed or extended because of the editor. The editor (CKEditor) is not the afterthought it should be. Even here on Invision, the editor and its limited functionality has proven problematic by the sheer request to work around it https://invisioncommunity.com/search/?q=editor&quick=1&type=forums_topic&nodes=499

    I want the good folks within Invision to know that I and many here respect where you have been taking your development. I like all the many features you have incorporated, and I am excited to see where Invision may be going in the future.  But the editor (CKEditor) is indeed something of an annoyance. I currently have no doubt when Invision decided to use CKEditor; at the time, it was the best option available. Times change.

    I do not expect Invision to change editors overnight. As previously pointed out, it is not easy to change editors or upgrade editors. I do not expect an editor change in the next release.  My request was for the far-off future, perhaps Invision Community 5.0 (whenever that happens). Again, we have a whole two (2) years before CKEditor reaches the end of life. Plenty of time for the Invision team to explore their options available.

    I hope (and request) that Invision explores their options during that time and hopefully decides on a different editor in the future.

     

  18. 1 hour ago, Joey_M said:

    I can't pretend to know much about the different types of editors, but I actually like CKEditor. There's been no issues, that I've personally experienced with it.

    IPS should base their decision on a mix of things, not what's now trendy or fashionable.

    I'm not suggesting anyone feels this way, but I do know CKEditor isn't something that will disappear over night. It's also well supported, has useful add-ons. If, other editors are stable, user friendly, responsive and isn't going to fall off the face of the earth then fair enough.

    But I don't feel a change is needed for the sake of it, it's got to be balanced and we'll thought out.

    Requiring to change again in the near future can put people off, I don't think members care about this function - provided it's simply, easy to use and does its job.

    To clarify:

    • TinyMCE - since 2004 (17 years)
    • Froala - The parent company (Idera, Inc.) since 2000 (21 years), the editor since 2013 (8 years)
    • Quill - since 2013 (8 years)
    • Redactor - since 2009 (12 years)

    Nothing I have suggested is a short-term 'fly-by-night' type of company. They are it for the long run. 😉 

  19. 1 hour ago, Morrigan said:

    Okay. Which at face value, to me, is a database record from the pages app to a forum topic since this is an IPS support forum. 😉 

    😂 Exactly, and people do import database records into Invison too. Nothing unusual at face value. 😉

  20. 1 hour ago, Morrigan said:

    To be clear I believe they are talking about a pages database to a topic which is not natively possible. 

    That is a possibility. I had only taken their question at face value.

  21. 29 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

    @niKee at this time, there is not. No.

    I wouldn't say I like this answer. 😅  The overall answer is "yes." Virtually (almost) any content from any database can be converted. Out of the box? It depends on what the source is (was it a forum?). But even if a current important does not exist, you can have one developed. 

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