8 hours ago, Joey_M said:

No, you can set it to the classic forum view still. The toggle on the community index page is gone, but there's a setting in user preferences now.

I haven't checked yet, but I showed my father my dev site, and his account didn't have access to the layout change. I believe there is a permission for it that he might not have. As an admin, I could change it.

When you say user preferences --> We only allow that view from an admin standpoint, desperately hope that is still the case.
Basically we want our users to login and view the forums as it currently is without being forced to a new layout.
Thanks for answering mate.

3 hours ago, NZyan said:

Will you integrate Sendgrid later? Or provide an alternative?

We've actually already provided an alternative. Postmark has been added

4 hours ago, NZyan said:

One question regarding Sendgrid:

I rely heavily on Sendgrid – thus removing this function is for me a dealbreaker.

Will you integrate Sendgrid later? Or provide an alternative?

I made the move with Invision from Mandrill (?) to Sendgrid – and never looked back.

But I need a functionality to send out 20k personalized mails quickly…

Andreas

If you use Sendgrid, you can continue using Sendgrid without any issues.

It looks like a private revenge on Sendgrid. Postmark could be another integration and coexist with Sendgrid.

Customers could have purchased plans in Sendgrid, or use a free plan (100 emails/day) that Postmark does not have. There is no guarantee that Postmark will not disappear soon, like Sendgrid is now.

Am I wrong?

14 minutes ago, Chuck Martin said:

It looks like a private revenge on Sendgrid. Postmark could be another integration and coexist with Sendgrid.

Customers could have purchased plans in Sendgrid, or use a free plan (100 emails/day) that Postmark does not have. There is no guarantee that Postmark will not disappear soon, like Sendgrid is now.

Am I wrong?

Yes. We are using Postmark for Invision Community Cloud and have been very impressed with its speed, security and support and felt it was a better alternative to SendGrid. However, we understand many are using SendGrid already and they can continue to do so.

1 hour ago, Matt said:

If you use Sendgrid, you can continue using Sendgrid without any issues.

OK, I was a bit confused when I saw this:

7 minutes ago, NZyan said:

OK, I was a bit confused when I saw this:

We're aware of that issue

But Amazon AWS SES emails are way cheaper than all of those alternatives.

39 minutes ago, beats23 said:

But Amazon AWS SES emails are way cheaper than all of those alternatives.

That's fine too if that's your preference, in 4.7.20 and 5.0.0 we made it easier for third parties to provide their own email handler. There are already third party solutions out there that let you use AWS SES via API.

16 hours ago, Jelly Belly™ said:

Alerts are useless foe older members who haven’t logged in for a while and no longer have access to their email, its these members we need to cater for on older communities

Unfortunately, you are simply going to have to get your hands dirty a little bit and provide some ad-hoc member support (I'd recommend opening a contact form or email address for people to reach out to you with login issues). Expected protocol as a community admin I'm afraid, comes with the territory.

But if you don't at least offer some level of communication with the tools you have (even if it isn't perfect), the harder it really is going to be for you.

Edited February 6Feb 6 by Dreadknux

@Matt Do we have option to convert support tickets to support topics in private section, so that for audit history is available? I can't delete customers support tickets for audit reasons or paypal chargebacks for missing support.

Honestly, the lack of login using only the username is such a stupid thing, and I remember perfectly when it was removed, I updated it without any prior notice and guess what?

0 complaints.

Especially because no one registers in communities, websites, stores, games or any type of registration form with incative mails.

Adding any email, yes there are people who are terrible at remembering passwords and or even their personal data, but honestly this is something that was removed a long time ago.

Just one question, was your community not updated until now?

This discussion makes no sense at all.

In any case, there is nothing else to do, either you look for an alternative to your problem or you do like the rest of us, update your community and make your members understand that new features and new trends are coming and that is excellent, honestly making so much noise because of a simple email typing.

Forgive me if this sounds rude or aggressive, but try to look at it with different eyes, as I am doing.

We have received a complete interface overhaul, which is incredibly beautiful and has incredible editing dynamics.

A new, more efficient and modern text editor, even if it is quite limited (in terms of resources, it is an incredible advance).

Try to present what we have at hand at the moment, be inviting and show commitment. I am sure that even users who no longer have access to their emails and the like will insist on continuing in your community, even if it means registering again.

Technology is like this. It constantly evolves and we have to adapt to it. We can't live in the past. If we were to live in the past, I was in love with version 3.0x of Invision. It was an incredible time. Every type of community wanted to have that basic black forum and at the same time with several resources for members to enjoy.

This is the new way. Long live it, and keeping up to date will do you a world of good.

21 minutes ago, Marco Junior said:

but try to look at it with different eyes, as I am doing.

But you’re not doing that. You are just saying, you didn’t notice any problems with it, so you declare that there is no problem to begin with. That’s not how that works.

It very much depends on the age and type of community. On my bigger and older communities, I get hundreds of bounced emails every time I send out a newsletter, even though I clean up bounces instantly. So, it’s just a fact that I have thousands, if not tens of thousands of users per community with discarded email addresses – with hundreds more each month. You stating that people don’t use inactive addresses during registration doesn’t change that many people go through many email addresses quickly, especially to sign up on websites. In some areas of the world, this seems to be common practice.

And by the way: Pointing to all the improvements in 5.x is irrelevant. If there are 100 improvements and one problem, we can still talk about that one problem and possible solutions to it. Suggesting we shouldn’t because there are also good things is a logical fallacy.

Edited February 7Feb 7 by opentype

So far, every time someone says they've been with Invision for years and want to keep certain features, the only argument against is, "Too bad, get used to it or go use some other platform."

Our Site has been with IPS so long, we had a Lifetime License that we paid for and THAT went away with the same argument, "Too bad, go use some other platform if you don't like it."

Yes, it is their platform, and they have every right to make any changes the want for whatever reason they want.

But shouldn't the preference of people who have stood behind IPS for so long be considered?

Here's my argument, we want the option to keep these features. it doesn't matter why they're being removed. it doesn't matter if it's "Better for us. We just don't know it yet and we'll get used to it". We've stayed with you this long and, whether anyone believes it or not, we deserve that option.

The fact is, we'll all probably stay with Invision even AFTER we're told, "Too bad, use something else if you don't like it."

Must be nice to know that you don't have to care what loyal customers want.

54 minutes ago, Marco Junior said:

Honestly, the lack of login using only the username is such a stupid thing, and I remember perfectly when it was removed, I updated it without any prior notice and guess what?

0 complaints.

Especially because no one registers in communities, websites, stores, games or any type of registration form with incative mails.

Adding any email, yes there are people who are terrible at remembering passwords and or even their personal data, but honestly this is something that was removed a long time ago.

Just one question, was your community not updated until now?

This discussion makes no sense at all.

In any case, there is nothing else to do, either you look for an alternative to your problem or you do like the rest of us, update your community and make your members understand that new features and new trends are coming and that is excellent, honestly making so much noise because of a simple email typing.

Forgive me if this sounds rude or aggressive, but try to look at it with different eyes, as I am doing.

We have received a complete interface overhaul, which is incredibly beautiful and has incredible editing dynamics.

A new, more efficient and modern text editor, even if it is quite limited (in terms of resources, it is an incredible advance).

Try to present what we have at hand at the moment, be inviting and show commitment. I am sure that even users who no longer have access to their emails and the like will insist on continuing in your community, even if it means registering again.

Technology is like this. It constantly evolves and we have to adapt to it. We can't live in the past. If we were to live in the past, I was in love with version 3.0x of Invision. It was an incredible time. Every type of community wanted to have that basic black forum and at the same time with several resources for members to enjoy.

This is the new way. Long live it, and keeping up to date will do you a world of good.

We do every update, and we sign in with usernames. I signed in to update to 4.17.20 just a while ago with my username. What about this discussion makes no sense? Didn't you know that we can still sign in with usernames? Isn't that why people are complaining because it's being taken away?

I use one email over 100s of sites

I use 100s of usernames on 100s of sites

what would cause me more hassle - my email and pasword in a data breach or one of my many user names and its password?

Edited February 7Feb 7 by sound

Now you have reached a very important point, if you long-time customers are discussing features that have been removed and that should remain, you are getting the same answers as us new customers (theoretically speaking), especially since I have been an IPS customer for a few years now.

Why do you think that making noise, telling your problems, presenting solutions and even addressing technical knowledge in a more complex way will make IPS change its mind?

This idea that the software is theirs, the company is theirs and they do whatever they want is horrible.

I don't believe that is quite the case, I believe that everything is analyzed in a more complex way where they analyze the effectiveness and usefulness of the features and issues of the plans and issues, for example the issue of (self-hosted) being the minority as mentioned in several topics like this about features and their absence for us, but at some point we were as relevant and important as any other large client of huge companies that can pay for each feature developed by them.

I'm not here to argue against your issue and your frustrations. I'm as frustrated as any of you. But I've talked and talked about my frustrations many times and the answers have always been the same. I felt unimportant. Even though I have a character that doesn't allow me to accept null versions, I decided to swallow my words and admire the resources they're offering me now. After all, that's all I can do. They won't change their policy and approach. Even if you're a customer for 200 years, I believe that everyone here still has a percentage of importance, especially because IPS didn't grow on its own. But there's no point in questioning something that was removed in several updates in the past.

If only it were that simple.

Coming here to express all my frustrations and then immediately receiving a special update from IPS simply because I supported the development for years.

We would have:

Posting with HTML as we had in v4

We would have all the IPSBADGES active as we had in V4

We would have the new features that were developed and are simply incredible, at least that's what it seems like watching the videos. (Presentations)

We would have a range of features that were simply expanded because of the (NEW) but unfortunately things don't work like that.

You see, @Code Name Jessica raised several concepts and exchanged experiences that she has with server infrastructure, addressing an issue that I have been trying to say for a long time, that several clients (Self-hosted) have enough knowledge to provide you with all the resources available to people on the (CLOUD) plan and they know they have them, but things will revolve around the financial aspect unfortunately and the financial aspect cannot be broken to please half a dozen clients who have the knowledge to manage their servers.

So in my opinion, no matter how much you question, explain the reasons, beg for the return of so many resources that were left behind, unfortunately I believe there is no solution other than (Either you look for alternatives, or you look for knowledge, become a programmer and make your resources as you wish, or pay for one)

I'm sorry, but this is the reality we are living in.

Edited February 7Feb 7 by Marco Junior

2 hours ago, Patham said:

Must be nice to know that you don't have to care what loyal customers want.

That is an incredibly bold and somewhat bleak statement to make. I don't think any one person has the agency to speak on behalf of all customers. We do of course care what our customers think. We spend a lot of time talking and listening to our customers.

The truth is that you cannot make everyone happy. You just can't. Take this one topic for example. One customer is upset at having username log in taken away after we announced it 3 years ago and others have said it's not a big deal and some see the benefit.

The best we can do is do what we think is right for the majority of customers.

Most of our customers are inside that red circle, with a few outside of it. Does that mean that we don't care about those outside of it? Of course not but we listen to all customers, and combine it with our strong vision for what a community platform would be, and a strong vision is essential for any product. Not everyone will align with it, but a strong vision allows you to build strong, robust and confident foundations and build a cohesive and logical product that follows the rules of that vision.

With a strong vision you can build something special. Even if it means not adding every feature that everyone wants.

Without a strong vision, and accepting every idea that is passed before us, you get a much weaker product that has no cohesion or identity.

Invision Community 5 has been in some form of testing since June 2024 and we've had hundreds of conversations that have shaped the final product.

To say we don't care about customers is pretty wide of the mark in my opinion.

I quite often have a member contact me about being unable to recall their password. I instruct them about how to reset their password and that a reset link will be sent to the email address associated with their account. Unfortunately, they quite often report that because their account is many years old, they do not recall the email account (and probably can no longer access it anyway). For obvious reasons, I cannot supply the email address to someone I cannot positively ID as the account holder (this is nearly always the case for older accounts with a long absence).

So, the problem here is that a good proportion of older-account holders no longer recall the email address associated with their account. I have been warning members of the upcoming login changes is (via an alert banner) for 18 months, but we have members who return after years-long absences. And some people cycle through email addresses - that's the reality.

I understand why Invision wish to remove username access - it makes accounts slightly more secure in the aggregate. But there are downsides for older-account holders. I can envisage possible (partial) solutions while also moving to email-only login ID. For example, a returning member might be allowed to login using their username only once and will be greeted with an alert to inform them of this, and that in future, they will be able to login using only their email address as their sign-in ID (while also making clear their displayed username is unchanged). And that they should make a note of the address and update it if necessary.

Although I understand Invision's argument, I feel that the security benefits are pretty marginal. And in the round, I think a better solution would be retain username as login ID for legacy accounts, and force email address as login ID for new accounts only. Alas, I doubt Invision will consider this at this late stage, or even my previous suggestion of allowing a single login with the username with an explanation and warning to update details. I do actually understand Invision's rationale, and that they will wish to keep it as simple as possible. But members permanently losing access to an account which they had previously used a lot is a big deal. And a bigger deal for some communities (such as mine), where it is not unusual for a member to return after multi-year absences.

On 2/7/2025 at 3:56 AM, Matt said:

That is an incredibly bold and somewhat bleak statement to make. I don't think any one person has the agency to speak on behalf of all customers. We do of course care what our customers think. We spend a lot of time talking and listening to our customers.

The truth is that you cannot make everyone happy. You just can't. Take this one topic for example. One customer is upset at having username log in taken away after we announced it 3 years ago and others have said it's not a big deal and some see the benefit.

The best we can do is do what we think is right for the majority of customers.

Most of our customers are inside that red circle, with a few outside of it. Does that mean that we don't care about those outside of it? Of course not but we listen to all customers, and combine it with our strong vision for what a community platform would be, and a strong vision is essential for any product. Not everyone will align with it, but a strong vision allows you to build strong, robust and confident foundations and build a cohesive and logical product that follows the rules of that vision.

With a strong vision you can build something special. Even if it means not adding every feature that everyone wants.

Without a strong vision, and accepting every idea that is passed before us, you get a much weaker product that has no cohesion or identity.

Invision Community 5 has been in some form of testing since June 2024 and we've had hundreds of conversations that have shaped the final product.

To say we don't care about customers is pretty wide of the mark in my opinion.

Look, I understand everything you've stated, but the fact remains that when the answer to people raising concerns about changes being made is, "It's for the best. Get used to it or go find something else." then it certainly APPEARS IPS doesn't care - at least about those customers.

I also understand that we don't have to switch, for now. But when are we going to HAVE to switch to 5? One selling point (IPS believes) is that all apps are now part of it. We don't use them. We don't need them. All it does is force us to pay for them (WITHOUT features we actually want) or, say it with me, go find something else.

I've never had a problem with you guys personally. You've always been helpful and friendly whenever we've needed assistance. This is why I'm so disappointed. When we started, we had enough faith to buy a Perpetual license. You went back on that agreement, and we stayed with you. There were other changes that were not our preference, and we stayed. And, as I've stated, we'll probably stay when you force us to switch to 5. But just so you know, what you're doing is akin to a car manufacturer saying, "No more cars and we're only providing maintenance on the ones you have for a while longer. Everybody's getting Lear jets. Whether you need it, want it or can afford it. Get used to it or find another way to go down the street to buy groceries."

We don't need or want a Lear jet. We just need to go down the street. We'd like to do it in the car we bought and pay to service periodically (updates). The car we bought because we felt you deserved a chance and our loyalty. It'd be nice if the people who made, and who we pay to service, our car didn't just keep saying, "But it's a Lear jet!"

We do care about our customers, but we also understand we're not going to take everyone with us on the direction we're headed.

And to be clear, we've not thrown a dart at a map, we've made decisions based on our knowledge of the market, and how communities work.

The truth is that there is no future for a business selling just a forum. There are plenty of successful forum-only websites, but those are in the minority and shrinking and not enough to sustain a business without accepting that it will get smaller and smaller until it winks out.

There is a good future for independent and brand communities but you need to leverage articles, databases, possibly galleries and more to build something up and to keep people coming back. I know you said that you don't need those apps, but I wonder if you really tested them and thought about your community design if they would actually come in useful for you and help you grow your community.

We're not forcing people to trade in their family saloon for a Lear Jet, the change isn't that significant. In terms of renewals, those with all apps currently save money and those who don't will see a price increase but the $17 a month isn't an unreasonable price to pay for all the functionality you get.

Of course, it's not for me to lecture you on where your breaking point is on payments and I understand that going from $7 a month to $17 is a jump but within that jump are opportunities.

Finally, no one is going to force you to switch to v5. At some point v4 will be deprecated and will no longer be updated and it will become harder and harder to host it on a maximum of PHP 8.1 so that is when you either move to v5 or choose one of the many other options available. That statement doesn't mean I don't care, it just means I'm realistic. I can't offer you a product that we don't have anymore.

I certainly hope you check out v5 and have a good evaluation of all the features. I'm always here for advice or feedback, as is the rest of the team.

1 hour ago, Patham said:

Look, I understand everything you've stated, but the fact remains that when the answer to people raising concerns about changes being made is, "It's for the best. Get used to it or go find something else." then it certainly APPEARS IPS doesn't care - at least about those customers.

To be fair, has anyone from IPS actually said those specific words ("It's for the best / get used to it"), or is that just projection on your part because they wouldn't do what you asked (happy to be proven wrong, genuinely curious)?

Because in my experience, I've always had any rejections of my ideas come with a polite explanation of why they can't/won't do something I've asked. It does suck, obviously, but ultimately the suite as-is remains a great product, if anything is considered 'out of scope' for the core development team to work on, there are always third-party coders and solutions to get you what you need.

On 2/3/2025 at 5:36 AM, Matt said:

Removing features is never easy and it's something we don't take lightly.

I understand the argument that we could just leave everything the way it is, but that won't help us progress. And progress we must. We have finite development resources, this means that we have to focus on toolsets which are needed for the current age.

We announced the username log-in deprecation in 2022. It's not something new with v5. All we have done is followed up on the deprecation.

Status updates were put into Invision Community during the boom time for social media where we felt we needed to add social tools to remain competitive. However, on most communities these are unloved areas of the community full of throw away comments and unanswered questions. They also drain conversation away from the core of the community forums. I know that a small number of communities thrive on status updates which is why we've kept the data and our considering migration options. In the mean time, the third-party developers have stepped up with different solutions.

Finally, a reminder that v4 will remain a viable platform for quite a while yet so there is no urgent rush to upgrade to v5 if you need more time to plan your upgrade and find solutions to deprecated features.

So what's the point of depreciating an integration like the Sendgrid API then? It's an e-mail API, it can't be changing that often that it is requiring a lot of coding hours. PostMark is more expensive and has limitations on the number of domains you can use on the lower end plans. This is one of those things that is a viable service, it can't be costing a lot of your time, and loads of us already use it so removing it just makes more work for us and pisses us off.

8 hours ago, CheersnGears said:

So what's the point of depreciating an integration like the Sendgrid API then? It's an e-mail API, it can't be changing that often that it is requiring a lot of coding hours.

I agree. So many people are using Sendgrid so it doesn't really make sense to remove it, but it's not up to us to decide that unfortunately.

8 hours ago, CheersnGears said:

So what's the point of depreciating an integration like the Sendgrid API then? It's an e-mail API

I see that it is already in version 5