CKEditor 4 end of life - alternative editor consideration

[Arantor]

Where Markdown starts to flail is for the somewhat edge-case where you're doing something in a reply that really is more detailed than simple markup. This is where it gets complicated.

Most replies in forums will have bold, italics, links, things that are fairly easy to parse - but it's when you have something that doesn't map *exactly* to the markup (or Markdown) that you have to reverse engineer it in some fashion.

Now, of course, IPS already does this when you're playing around with quoting, embedding metadata into the markup to indicate author/source of post/whatever, all the things you'd want to have in order to take that quote and springboard events off it like alerts.

There are a few things you can do about this. You can either 1) simplify the markup to simply be a mention to the author, a simple link to the post and rely on the mention to handle the notification, or 2) reinvent the kind of markup you're embedding to keep the metadata intact.

The former is what NodeBB does if memory serves, the latter is what Discourse did at least initially; at least one early adopter of Discourse referred to their markup as DiscoMarkBBcodeDown or some similar mashup because it tried to handle Markdown as its primary lingua franca, HTML for the things that Markdown couldn't do, and bbcode for meta markup that didn't align to HTML.

It also amuses me that WordPress eventually reinvented bbcode for such cases (this is, after all, what shortcode is) precisely for the cases where their editor couldn't handle it.

But then you get into the question of: how much do you *really* want to support in replies? I would make the argument that complex and rich editing for topic starters (plus cases like Pages) is very desirable, and that yes, Markdown or something like it is probably all you *actually* need for replies. But that's a value proposition that has to be weighed up against the communities that *don't* do that.

I could over in my little weird niche, find you any number of forums that have the most ridiculous and intricate snippets of raw HTML embedded into each post to make decorative frames around the content, sufficiently complex that they require to be posted as templates for users to copy/paste because you'd never use them normally, far beyond what even the usual types of bbcode support. Some of these templates are so ornate they even include user-driven animation (e.g. a decorative picture, hover over to see the content). Whether this is user friendly or not is, largely, irrelevant to outside observers; those are their customers, that is what they do, and most other forum software increasingly is just not going to support it.

But that's where we get to the value proposition: those users aren't going to be moving to IPS any time soon, and those that are... they'll accept the reduction in functionality even to align to IPS 4.5/4.6 (because there will be some for them without major dev work, I think), and probably even to Markdown - meaning that you wouldn't really lose any users this way because they weren't going to be your users anyhow. For the IPS core market on the other hand, I think it's very reasonable to suggest that, actually, Markdown represents a sufficiently robust set of core formatting that users would want.

I still wouldn't ask _us_ however because we're not the userbase at large. We are the customers, the people who pay for some flavour of the software - but we're not the vast hordes of people who _use_ it, a critical distinction a lot of forum admin places (hi TAZ) seem to forget.

Additionally, anecdotally the thoughts I've had from people who want a mobile app tend to align along 'I want notifications and a simplified editing experience' because they're likely not editing the full rich content on mobile, but replying where the Markdown-esque editing experience is sufficient.

[Linux-Is-Best]

On 5/18/2021 at 2:31 PM, Matt said:

I'd go back to plain text with Markdown.

 

One thing we do want to do is do something extra for Pages. The functions you need for most topics/replies is vastly different to what you will need for pages construction.

A markdown editor would be an acceptable alternative https://stackedit.io/ 

demo: https://stackedit.io/app

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Linux-Is-Best
added demo link

[Linux-Is-Best]

On 5/18/2021 at 1:54 PM, Arantor said:

the question is whether you care most about the creators and giving them all the options, or the commenters on content.

Yes (both). 😉

Generally, I envision something modern, updated regularly for both browser compatibility and fixes (including mobile use), and something that can be developed around reasonably effortlessly (both for Invision devs and 3rd party). CKEditor does not fit that bill.  There are many alternatives, and I hope when Invision Community 5.0 is on the table, a new editor will be considered.

On 5/18/2021 at 1:54 PM, Arantor said:

Tell you what I'd do at this point: I'd make it pluggable and let users decide what they want to use, since they all interchange raw HTML at this point, why not just let the site admins pick which one(s) they want to use - allow for CKEditor 5 for admins, and I dunno, QuillJS for regular users? (Quill has the advantage that it's deliberately set up to have a limited surface area and focus on what it offers rather than trying to be rich and detailed)

As cool as I think that would be, I question how easy that would be to support. The consumer (you and I) would love it. But I cannot imagine Invison support would feel too good every time someone changed editors and discovered an issue. I imagine they would spend countless time trying to determine whether the problem was with their code or one of several editors and how and where the issue lay.  But I do like the idea, even though I imagine it could be a nightmare for support. 🙃

[Arantor]

On 5/30/2021 at 2:35 PM, Linux-Is-Best said:

As cool as I think that would be, I question how easy that would be to support. The consumer (you and I) would love it.

Honestly, that's not what happens in practice. The majority will simply use and grow to work with whatever the default is set to, even if the default is a functionally inferior version, as long as the minimum feature set for creators is maintained.

My source for this is Moodle - which made a transition from TinyMCE to its own home-grown editor Atto a few years ago. While inferior functionally (objectively) compared to the legacy version of TinyMCE they were using, the reality is that Atto did enough to support most things that people needed, and the community plugged the remaining holes as they saw it.

My source for the other end of the scale is one of the Moodle derivatives, which followed the TinyMCE -> Atto route and in the last couple of versions introduced their own editor to replace Atto, called Weka. All three editors remain available, but Weka provides zero table support which is a deal-breaker for some content creators. (Their justification is that they intend content to be consumed by mobile and their mobile app does not support tables.)

Basically as long as whatever editor is not so broken that it's deemed unusable by the majority, whatever the vendor does will just be accepted because people will generally move with change.

A new editor, in whatever capacity, is a hefty undertaking to consider not only users' needs (all sets of users) but also to consider security of whatever formatting is being done, as well as side functionality such as uploaded/embedded media.

[Linux-Is-Best]

5 hours ago, Arantor said:

Honestly, that's not what happens in practice. The majority will simply use and grow to work with whatever the default is set to, even if the default is a functionally inferior version, as long as the minimum feature set for creators is maintained.

My source for this is Moodle - which made a transition from TinyMCE to its own home-grown editor Atto a few years ago. While inferior functionally (objectively) compared to the legacy version of TinyMCE they were using, the reality is that Atto did enough to support most things that people needed, and the community plugged the remaining holes as they saw it.

My source for the other end of the scale is one of the Moodle derivatives, which followed the TinyMCE -> Atto route and in the last couple of versions introduced their own editor to replace Atto, called Weka. All three editors remain available, but Weka provides zero table support which is a deal-breaker for some content creators. (Their justification is that they intend content to be consumed by mobile and their mobile app does not support tables.)

Basically as long as whatever editor is not so broken that it's deemed unusable by the majority, whatever the vendor does will just be accepted because people will generally move with change.

A new editor, in whatever capacity, is a hefty undertaking to consider not only users' needs (all sets of users) but also to consider security of whatever formatting is being done, as well as side functionality such as uploaded/embedded media.

I will be perfectly content with nearly any editor outside of CKEditor.  It feels worth repeating, but both v4 and v5 I find inadequate for both the front end and back end, so nearly anything would be an improvement.  As you pointed out, and as others have noted, changing to v5 or any other editor will be a significant change regardless (either way).  While CKEditor would argue that v5 was a near rewrite or complete rewrite (I forget which), it's still more or less the same editor by the same development, making many of the same mistakes (and issues). That is too bad because I did buy into all the hype three (3) years ago (2018) when they release v5.

But I digress.  I do like your alternative viewpoint. The idea of making it so the system was "plug and play." If you could swap out the editor as nearly as easily as you could an add-on, that would indeed be impressive. While I did initially say, I have no particular personal preference beyond just replacing CKEditor. If I could have my pick, I would likely jump onto Redactor Editor.

[SeNioR-]

Hope IPS is considering adding CKEditor v5 in 4.7.0

Edited January 4, 2022 by SeNioR-

[ZLTRGO]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:32 PM, SeNioR- said:

Hope IPS is considering adding CKEditor v5 in 4.7.0

And hopefully also a way to manage plugins with it too :,)

[Linux-Is-Best]

Hello everyone. I hope and trust you are all doing well.

It has been a little more than a year since I initially made my inquiry. CKEditor 4 is still on track for the end of product life support this coming 2023. I initially made my inquiry and suggestion for the possibility of a new editor last year, while we were two (2) years away. Plenty of time to give some serious thought and consideration. It is 2022, and we still have until next year, so there is no rush. And even after CKEditor 4 reaches its end of life, I imagine the final patched release can hold us over for a little while after.

That said, the clock to that moment is still ticking away, so I thought I refresh the spirit of the discussion with a little reminder. Any alternative to CKEditor in the future would be most certainly welcomed. I have listed a few suggestions in my original post on page one. But I know there is a wide variety of alternative editors out there. If you know of one you believe would make an even better fit, please share with the community. It could be beneficial to the community and the development of Invsion’s future products and services.

As always, I thank you for your time and consideration. I wish you all the very best. 😊

Edited June 20, 2022 by Linux-Is-Best
mistype

[Matt]

This is definitely very much on our minds. 🙂 

[beats23]

What's wrong with CKeditor, what would you get from other editors that CKeditor doesn't have?

CKeditor works fine for me. I would like the IPS to update it to V5 the latest and for it to be compatible with CKeditor plugins.

[Matt]

26 minutes ago, beats23 said:

What's wrong with CKeditor, what would you get from other editors that CKeditor doesn't have?

CKeditor works fine for me. I would like the IPS to update it to V5 the latest and for it to be compatible with CKeditor plugins.

This is probably what we'll do.

[Linux-Is-Best]

15 hours ago, Matt said:

This is probably what we'll do.

That would be disappointing. I have used CKEditor 4 and 5. It is irreconcilable, incompatible with our needs and not mobile web friendly in terms of usability and performance. I would see it as a missed opportunity to improve and better Invision’s future. While CKEditor may have once been the mainstream web editor of choice; I understand and sympathize with the reasoning on why many developments no longer use the editor.

It is, of course, your development and your vision, but I would urge you to reconsider and give it further thought.

[Linux-Is-Best]

16 hours ago, beats23 said:

What's wrong with CKeditor, what would you get from other editors that CKeditor doesn't have?

CKeditor works fine for me. I would like the IPS to update it to V5 the latest and for it to be compatible with CKeditor plugins.

Speaking personally, from my own unique perspective. I manage an active community overseas that could be classified as servicing within an emerging developing country. Mobile devices are the primary source of medium there to access both the world wide web and our community. It is important to consider the responsiveness, performance, and compatibility of the software with the build of those mobile devices. I was aware CKEditor 4 did not match our required needs and waited with anticipation for the development and release of CKEditor 5. It had to do with another project. Unfortunately, the inflated hype surrounding CKEditor 5 was most disappointing, to be more marketing and less substance of functionality. I am further disappointed to say that has not changed since the initial release of CKEditor 5.

Invision has been taking some impressive and bold initiative with their development. They seem willing to expand the realm of online community development and I have found it most impressive with their continued ability to, metaphorically, “step out of the box and think differently.” However, beyond testing the functionality and versatility of the software, I could not actively deploy Invision into any meaningful live community with the current limitation the CKEditor imposes on mobile devices. I suppose if mobile was not such a required need, I would have done so two (2) years ago.

While I would certainly like to see it happen sooner, around the time of the end of support of CKEditor 4. I hope in the far future, around the time of Invision 5.0, the development will revisit the possibility of implementing an editor that does not hinder mobile browsing.

[beats23]

4 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

Speaking personally, from my own unique perspective. I manage an active community overseas that could be classified as servicing within an emerging developing country. Mobile devices are the primary source of medium there to access both the world wide web and our community. It is important to consider the responsiveness, performance, and compatibility of the software with the build of those mobile devices. I was aware CKEditor 4 did not match our required needs and waited with anticipation for the development and release of CKEditor 5. It had to do with another project. Unfortunately, the inflated hype surrounding CKEditor 5 was most disappointing, to be more marketing and less substance of functionality. I am further disappointed to say that has not changed since the initial release of CKEditor 5.

Invision has been taking some impressive and bold initiative with their development. They seem willing to expand the realm of online community development and I have found it most impressive with their continued ability to, metaphorically, “step out of the box and think differently.” However, beyond testing the functionality and versatility of the software, I could not actively deploy Invision into any meaningful live community with the current limitation the CKEditor imposes on mobile devices. I suppose if mobile was not such a required need, I would have done so two (2) years ago.

While I would certainly like to see it happen sooner, around the time of the end of support of CKEditor 4. I hope in the far future, around the time of Invision 5.0, the development will revisit the possibility of implementing an editor that does not hinder mobile browsing.

Could you give some specifics for which CKeditor features that doesn't function properly on a mobile device compared to the other editors you're referring to?

[teraßyte]

8 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

I hope in the far future, around the time of Invision 5.0, the development will revisit the possibility of implementing an editor that does not hinder mobile browsing.

Any example of a good editor you'd like to see included? So far you've only mentioned CKEditor is not good, but you haven't mentioned which other editor would work for you. If you post some names/sites IPS at least has something to look at.

[Randy Calvert]

32 minutes ago, teraßyte said:

Any example of a good editor you'd like to see included? So far you've only mentioned CKEditor is not good, but you haven't mentioned which other editor would work for you. If you post some names/sites IPS at least has something to look at.

His suggestions are in the very first post of the topic I believe.  

[Matt]

I don't really see what advantages the others have over CKEditor 5.

Whichever we choose, there is a significant time investment to rewrite our plugins and parts of our uploader, etc.

[SeNioR-]

Support for CKE4 ends in 2023. I hope you are already working on migrating to CKE5.

The FA4 framework from 2017 should also be updated or completely removed and replaced with SVG icons.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by SeNioR-

[Randy Calvert]

They’ve already said it’s on their radar. It will most likely be like PHP8… released right before the actual EOL. 

Given there has been no set date (just 2023)… that’s at least 12 more months. and with internet years being like dogs years… there’s still quite a bit of runway left. 🙂 

[13.]

7 hours ago, Randy Calvert said:

They’ve already said it’s on their radar.

How many years ago, could you remind me please?

[Randy Calvert]

20 minutes ago, 13. said:

How many years ago, could you remind me please?

Since it’s working, until ckeditor forces their hand, don’t expect to see it change.  It’s a huge component and critical to everything… it touches practically every part of the suite.  Changing it literally will be MONTHS of dev time that stops everything else. 

Like PHP7, once it’s actually EOL’ed… it’ll be done.  Until then, I don’t see it changing.  Maybe go ask ckeditor when they’re going to finally let the old version die.  😉 

Once that known, you’ll know when it will be updated. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Randy Calvert

[SeNioR-]

@Randy Calvert Randy, it's great that you're so active, but you're a customer like all of us, so let the IPS Team write something, because you act like their spokesperson or someone who knows more than us, and you know as much as we all do, which is nothing.

Edited November 24, 2022 by SeNioR-

[beats23]

7 hours ago, SeNioR- said:

@Randy Calvert Randy, it's great that you're so active, but you're a customer like all of us, so let the IPS Team write something, because you act like their spokesperson or someone who knows more than us, and you know as much as we all do, which is nothing.

One who knows it all but actually knows nothing. So true lol 😂 

[Randy Calvert]

16 minutes ago, beats23 said:

One who knows it all but actually knows nothing. So true lol 😂 

For someone who was feigning harassment and claims of being targeted earlier… you certainly love to do it yourself. 😉 

Happy holidays! 

[RevengeFNF]

20 hours ago, Randy Calvert said:

They’ve already said it’s on their radar. It will most likely be like PHP8… released right before the actual EOL. 

Given there has been no set date (just 2023)… that’s at least 12 more months. and with internet years being like dogs years… there’s still quite a bit of runway left. 🙂 

I wouldn't be so sure of that. They say the support will last until 2023, meaning it can end at the end of 2022.

Ckeditor 4 was released at the end of 2012, with a 10 year long term support. Unless they want to support more, 10 years ends at the end of this current year.