Please restore the choice of reactions here at IPS!

[The Old Man]

The +1 button was a great idea but please return or improve the number of reactions here at the IPS Community forum. It's feels to me IMHO almost like we're being stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department or something. Reactions allowing the ability to show you you're saddened, disagree or are confused about something and help provide a balance of opinion, freedom of expression and thought.

Thanks for reading.

[CoffeeCake]

3 minutes ago, The Old Man said:

The +1 button was a great idea but please return or improve the number of reactions here at the IPS Community forum. It's feels to me IMHO almost like we're being stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department or something. Reactions allowing the ability to show you you're saddened, disagree or are confused about something and help provide a balance of opinion, freedom of expression and thought.

Devil's advocate here: Do they though? Are you contributing anything of value in a conversation medium when you decide to indicate "confused!" or "sad!"? Are they vehicles for abuse or harassment?

Contextual responses are important, and "I agree with everything you said" is a shortcut that works and is largely free of malicious intent (it's hard to "I agree with you" in a way that is offensive to the person authoring the remark), however the ability to react negatively to content without stating why in a medium that encourages exchange is at odds with the platform in some use cases.

I think it's great that IPS has the easy, built in ability to define reactions for each and every install and that administrators are able to sort out what works best for their individual communities. I also think that for some communities, like this meta one, it's important that the balance of opinions, the dissenting expressions and thoughts, and that the less than positive reactions to content be fleshed out with words and quotations over a wordless reaction. That 4 people were confused about a post doesn't help the author of that post (or the people working on this platform) understand what was confusing, nor provide context to clarify.

By removing shortcuts that add little value (in this case, negative reactions), you need to express those things verbosely, and for many communities (and for this community), I think that's a better thing than the alternative.

If you disagree with me, you're encouraged to reply how and why and we move the conversation forward.

[Charles]

38 minutes ago, The Old Man said:

The +1 button was a great idea but please return or improve the number of reactions here at the IPS Community forum. It's feels to me IMHO almost like we're being stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department or something. Reactions allowing the ability to show you you're saddened, disagree or are confused about something and help provide a balance of opinion, freedom of expression and thought.

Thanks for reading.

+sad 

[Matt]

"stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department"

We call him Jordan, but that's also fine. His reasoning, which I agree with is that we'd prefer positive sentiment. A tiny graphic isn't the only way you can express yourself on our community, though.

[Charles]

Sometimes people use big graphics like GIFs too. I do not for many such GIFs are cat-based and therefore evil.

[Matt]

[Jordan Miller]

1 hour ago, The Old Man said:

feels to me IMHO almost like we're being stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department or something.

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

We call him Jordan

[Marc Stridgen]

So happy there was a reaction for that

[Jordan Miller]

2 hours ago, The Old Man said:

The +1 button was a great idea but please return or improve the number of reactions here at the IPS Community forum. It's feels to me IMHO almost like we're being stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department or something. Reactions allowing the ability to show you you're saddened, disagree or are confused about something and help provide a balance of opinion, freedom of expression and thought.

Thanks for reading.

Appreciate you taking the time to write this @The Old Man!

My logic for removing the "sad" and "confused" reactions was two-fold. For one, they were extremely underutilized according to the reports. More importantly (imo), if someone feels confused or sad, we want to encourage you guys to write out a response. Those are more fragile emotions, so I felt, and still feel, that if someone is sad or confused about something, that it's important they take the time to respond why they feel that way. If they're confused, it gives them an opportunity to seek clarification from someone in a reply. And if they are sad, it allows them the freedom to explain why. 

Most platforms stopped offering a "dislike" option because it causes unnecessary conflict. I can attest to this personally on my own community. A few members were using it non-stop to essentially start fights - especially if their posting was restricted (they can still use reactions as a form of communication). We removed the option to "dislike" replies and it created a friendlier environment. 

YouTube is one of the only places left where you can dislike, and this past week they've started quietly testing out what their platform would be like if they removed it.

 

Ultimately, I am aiming for our community to feel more high vibe. 😅

Would love to hear what the rest of the community has to say about this! If the majority want the ability to express negative emotion with reactions, if that will really elevate this community and your day, I'm open to hearing that and making a change. It just has to be for the overall betterment of our community 🙂 🙏 

[CoffeeCake]

59 minutes ago, Jordan Invision said:

Most platforms stopped offering a "dislike" option because it causes unnecessary conflict. I can attest to this personally on my own community. A few members were using it non-stop to essentially start fights - especially if their posting was restricted (they can still use reactions as a form of communication). We removed the option to "dislike" replies and it created a friendlier environment. 

[Clover13]

5 hours ago, Matt said:

Quote

"stifled by some dark, manipulative branding and marketing PR department"

We call him Jordan, but that's also fine.

 

Gotta say that one made me chuckle 🤣

Good idea removing the negative reactions, agree they generally spark negative responses/replies.  Also a good point by @Jordan identifying the general positive sentiment garnered from a positive reaction versus provoking users to provide more of a textual response explaining their discontent (rather than leaving it to fester in the brain of the OP they reacted to).

[Kjell Iver Johansen]

6 hours ago, The Old Man said:

Reactions allowing the ability to show you you're saddened, disagree or are confused about something and help provide a balance of opinion, freedom of expression and thought.

I agree. I’m here lurking and seriously trying to read and learn stuff that I can use on my own sites. All this childish noise (like meow and posts with only gifs) might get some members here a good time laughing but it just gets this site less serious for users like myselve. I have enough of that noise on other sites - fb, insta. 
Also don’t forget that there is a lot of visitors around that seriously consider using this software and the discussions you have here is important to showcase what the software can do.

 

[Sonya*]

6 hours ago, Charles said:

cat-based and therefore evil.

[Chris Anderson]

This is a product support board, not an emotional support board.  Enough with all the touchy feely emojis, gifs and any other means of expressing emotions, whether positive or negative.  All communications should be done in a completely neutral fashion.

To ensure neutral communications going forward, please remove all reactions and the emojis and gif buttons as well from the editor in these forums as a few people can't seem to help themselves from being emotionally expressive.  The old saying goes, a few bad apples always ruins it for the rest...

[Clover13]

3 minutes ago, Chris Anderson said:

This is a product support board, not an emotional support board.  Enough with all the touchy feely emojis, gifs and any other means of expressing emotions, whether positive or negative.  All communications should be done in a completely neutral fashion.

To ensure neutral communications going forward, please remove all reactions and the emojis and gif buttons as well from the editor in these forums as a few people can't seem to help themselves from being emotionally expressive.  The old saying goes, a few bad apples always ruins it for the rest...

Should we remove all colors too?  May go all black and white?  Maybe they can change their domain to just website.com to ensure full generic compliance?

Really as a product driven website, it makes the most sense for them to showcase their product features and offerings, and perhaps apply their known best of breed use case patterns so others can replicate their success.  Or just go full generic so everyone can be a robot with zero personality and nothing stands out commanding unique attention.

Psssst it's OK to have fun! 😁

[Linux-Is-Best]

Meow.

[Chris Anderson]

2 hours ago, Chris Anderson said:

This is a product support board, not an emotional support board.  Enough with all the touchy feely emojis, gifs and any other means of expressing emotions, whether positive or negative.  All communications should be done in a completely neutral fashion.

To ensure neutral communications going forward, please remove all reactions and the emojis and gif buttons as well from the editor in these forums as a few people can't seem to help themselves from being emotionally expressive.  The old saying goes, a few bad apples always ruins it for the rest...

Ideally we strike a balance somewhere between what I wrote above and what @Clover13wrote below:

2 hours ago, Clover13 said:

Psssst it's OK to have fun! 😁

 I took the extreme view because I suspect some of the forum visitors would like things to be a little more formal and they might not offer up an opinion one way or the other on the topic at hand.  Some of the forum clientele would prefer  a rather relaxed (fun!!!) environment.  Some sections of this board and some topics should be formal and some could benefit from some levity.  It's tough to enact a one size fits all approach to dealing with this.  Reactions, emojis, and gifs may be appropriate in some area and not in others.  I would encourage some more thought on where they might best be utilized and to what extent.  It might be appropriate to have different reactions in different areas as a means of helping manage the flow of communication and gauging support for or against a topic.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Chris Anderson

[Linux-Is-Best]

Of all the things to be upset about or making a formal request concerning. 🙄 Why so serious?

Invision could add a host of new reactions or remove them all. Of all the things to worry about, I think focusing on development and support is more important. Yet here we are debating about emoji reactions.

I like the cat reaction. I tend to use it when someone is like-minded (not something you can agree with, but when someone has posted something that I feel fits). I'm sure someone will argue I'm using it wrong. To which I want to ask them, why so serious? There are so many more important issues. What reactions we use, when we use them, how often we use them, etc... It does not seem to me as something to stress over.

I agree removing any negative reactions was a positive change. There is a reason why most social media sites do not use them. When available, they're abused, and often.  Beyond that point, can we focus on something else?  I feel like this thread was made to complain for the sake of complaining (in my opinion). And no, it is not lost on me that complaining about someone's complaining is too ironic.

I've said my peace.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Linux-Is-Best

[Chris Anderson]

1 hour ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

ironic

Speaking of ironic:

One would hope that everyone can be free to express an opinion here, even if it seems to be on the "ironic" side to some of us.  As with many comments posted here, I personally disagree with some points made and agree with others, rarely do I weigh in completely one way or the other. As a consequence I rarely use reactions.

If everyone consistently keeps their concerns to themselves "nothing" will change and there will be no chance of any knowledge transfer.

What appears to be a waste of time to some may not be to others. Jordan's approach to community management may serve him well on his board but might not work 100% of the time here.  The original poster was pointing out that in his opinion Jordan's approach might benefit from a little tweaking. If Jordan is to improve this community hearing contrary views will help him figure out how best to manage this community to be in service to "all".

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Chris Anderson

[Linux-Is-Best]

20 minutes ago, Chris Anderson said:

Speaking of ironic: - video removed from quote (you understand, its big)

One would hope that everyone can be free to express an opinion here, even if it seems to be on the "ironic" side to some of us.  As with many comments posted here, I personally disagree with some points made and agree with others, rarely do I weigh in completely one way or the other.  If everyone consistently keeps their concerns to themselves "nothing" will change and there will be no chance of any knowledge transfer.

What appears to be a waste of time to some may not be to others. Jordan's approach to community management may serve him well on his board but might not work 100% of the time here.  The original poster was pointing out that in his opinion Jordan's approach might benefit from a little tweaking. If Jordan is to improve this community hearing contrary views will help him figure out how best to manage this community for the long term.  That my friend will not be a waste of time for any of us.

 

I love that song. 🙂  

You have a fair point. I guess my stance is I think everything is working just fine, and we need to continue to let things fold out with the new changes. When I joined here, people were arguing about how disappointed they were with the engagement. That's changing. Let's let the process unfold and see where it takes us before we nit-pick everything. Who knows, you may like it, but you'll never know until you give things a chance.

[The Old Man]

11 hours ago, CoffeeCake said:

Contextual responses are important, and "I agree with everything you said" is a shortcut that works and is largely free of malicious intent (it's hard to "I agree with you" in a way that is offensive to the person authoring the remark), however the ability to react negatively to content without stating why in a medium that encourages exchange is at odds with the platform in some use cases.

I think it's great that IPS has the easy, built in ability to define reactions for each and every install and that administrators are able to sort out what works best for their individual communities. I also think that for some communities, like this meta one, it's important that the balance of opinions, the dissenting expressions and thoughts, and that the less than positive reactions to content be fleshed out with words and quotations over a wordless reaction. That 4 people were confused about a post doesn't help the author of that post (or the people working on this platform) understand what was confusing, nor provide context to clarify.

By removing shortcuts that add little value (in this case, negative reactions), you need to express those things verbosely, and for many communities (and for this community), I think that's a better thing than the alternative.

If you disagree with me, you're encouraged to reply how and why and we move the conversation forward.

Thanks for the response and your thoughts... I actually never said anything about negative reactions in terms of actual -1 scoring, I hate negativity as anyone who knows me personally would tell, I battled it in a real world team as a team leader and manager for years. I'm also all for company loyalty but proud not be a 'Company Yesman Jellyfish' for that matter.

12 hours ago, CoffeeCake said:

I think it's great that IPS has the easy, built in ability to define reactions for each and every install and that administrators are able to sort out what works best for their individual communities.

Absolutely, me too. I disabled the dislike -1 button on my own community for a few reasons, but mostly because I think deducting reputation points is not worthwhile and it can misfire when it comes to impacting member's reputation in their their profiles. However in my community, you are free to quickly express sadness at someone being ill or having lost their job, or express confusion (we renamed it bewildered for fun solely because I think it's such a great word!). We have members who are not great or are learning with computers, if they don't get something first time they can freely say their confused and ask for clarification. They can you these other reactions and they don't add or subtract a point, they're just neutral, they don't detract from anything. Members are free to add a follow up post, or not, it's completely up to them.

If you only allow one sided opinion to be expressed you're potentially on the path of manipulating your community in my book. How long until the penny drops in the minds of your community, or you start hiding and at the extreme begin deleting posts that don't conform with the management way of thinking. I honestly think, and again it's just my take, you can give people a choice of reactions without introducing negativity, just use positive and neutral reactions and back it up with a fair and reasonable set of community guidelines.

We don't always get it right, but I'd say is that my community is considered by many long term members to be a haven, it's almost 20 years old but it didn't start out that way. We used to allow all reasonable, work friendly and legal topics of conversation but politics and religion (yes, those 2 subjects that have been destroying civilisations for millennia) were an absolute nightmare. People just can't seem to behave themselves and give a respectful opinion. This was long before reactions came along. It was like the toxic vitriol you see every day on social media, that even from the normally respectable of people can leave you feeling dirty after 30 minutes of exposure, and heading for a cleansing hot shower. The best thing we ever did was remove those 2 topics except in the context of that shown in a particular TV series our community was originally about and we explained why. We now have 4 members of staff including myself and we've not moderated anything for maybe 16 years or so, except for the random human spammer or the occasional troll. Reactions came along and my members love them as much as they prefer old fashioned animated emoticons over emoji and giphys.

There is no negativity, it's never hurt my community and people can say if they don't agree with something we're talking about, either by a quick reaction and or a reply. It's about striking a balance where conversation and viewpoints are appreciated, even if people have a different view than your own. 

11 hours ago, Matt said:

We call him Jordan, but that's also fine. His reasoning, which I agree with is that we'd prefer positive sentiment.

Lol. Yes don't we all! So it's a yes then, it's confirmation of what I was concerned about; a not so subtle coercion! I knew they were all out to get me.

Seriously though having a sad or confused graphic doesn't mean that people can't express disagreement with a particular corporate stance or comment, or that members in your community here should be prevented from quickly showing empathy in they're a bit are worried about you, because you are struggling with COVID in an off-topic part of the community that's for member to member chat.

 

10 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

My logic for removing the "sad" and "confused" reactions was two-fold. For one, they were extremely underutilized according to the reports.

Thanks Jordan, I appreciate your reply as well. My personal take on that first point is that it reminds me of the old saying, "Statistics, statistics and damn statistics"; incidentally I do like all you can eat stats and analysis myself! There's two ways of looking at your report. Yes, one is that those 2 reactions may be under-utilised compared to Likes and Laughs. The other way to look and interpret it is that it's showing you that you're generally or even more strongly so doing something right, because the reaction to your websites content is mostly positive and often light hearted and good natured. Isn't that what Matt said he prefers? By removing the less used reactions simply for the sake of their usage, you've kind of shot yourself in the foot, because now you're effectively no longer seeing as true, reflective and clear snapshot of your community.

10 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

More importantly (imo), if someone feels confused or sad, we want to encourage you guys to write out a response. Those are more fragile emotions, so I felt, and still feel, that if someone is sad or confused about something, that it's important they take the time to respond why they feel that way. If they're confused, it gives them an opportunity to seek clarification from someone in a reply. And if they are sad, it allows them the freedom to explain why.

I can understand that, it being a corporate site, but please consider too that not everyone feels comfortable having to justify themselves over every little thing, by and large. Sometimes people simply don't have the time or confidence to do so or plan to come back later. Sometimes a quick sad reaction to some news is enough to show support or solidarity. Sometimes people are new to a community and aren't quite ready to jump in yet. Your stance could equally be, however unintentionally or with the best intentions, interpreted as sending a message; that only the most vocal of people's opinions count, are welcome, are as important, interesting or deemed valid.

 

10 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

Most platforms stopped offering a "dislike" option because it causes unnecessary conflict. I can attest to this personally on my own community. A few members were using it non-stop to essentially start fights - especially if their posting was restricted (they can still use reactions as a form of communication). We removed the option to "dislike" replies and it created a friendlier environment. 

Yes, as above. I've also found positive and neutral scoring reactions work best.

10 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

Ultimately, I am aiming for our community to feel more high vibe.

That's cool but it's about striking a middle ground. It's not about allowing or risking dissent in the ranks.

In the spirit of *maintaining my upbeatness and positivity, thanks for not removing the 😔 😩 or 😡!

 

Hey, this is a feedback forum, where IPS asks for feedback, and so I gave it. To those supportive, thank you, to those reacting to my post by calling me a pussy, cat or whatever the cat emoji actually now means now that April Fools Day has gone, that's fine, you 😻!

4 hours ago, Linux-Is-Best said:

I agree removing any negative reactions was a positive change. There is a reason why most social media sites do not use them. When available, they're abused, and often.  Beyond that point, can we focus on something else?  I feel like this thread was made to complain for the sake of complaining (in my opinion). And no, it is not lost on me that complaining about someone's complaining is too ironic.

Again, I never said anything about restoring negative reactions. You're so wrong about why I created this feedback topic, in a feedback forum, that's always been for feedback, like from customers. Of all the cheek, right? I should be flogged. Publicly, in the village square and my IPS licences torn up in front of my face, friends and family. But wait, you're being negative, we don't do that hear, I'll report you good!

Moving on...

 

* Me, maintaining my positivity and upbeatness!

 

Still positive, don't worry I got this!

 

Here's some of the books I personally use to achieve my positive zen, without falling down a negative shame spiral...

Available from all good bookstores near you... or Amazon, they're positive folks...

 

Sent this to a few people at Christmas, highly recommended...

 

Next, a personal favourite...

But really I owe it all to...

 

[Matt]

9 hours ago, Chris Anderson said:

Speaking of ironic:

One would hope that everyone can be free to express an opinion here, even if it seems to be on the "ironic" side to some of us.  As with many comments posted here, I personally disagree with some points made and agree with others, rarely do I weigh in completely one way or the other. As a consequence I rarely use reactions.

If everyone consistently keeps their concerns to themselves "nothing" will change and there will be no chance of any knowledge transfer.

What appears to be a waste of time to some may not be to others. Jordan's approach to community management may serve him well on his board but might not work 100% of the time here.  The original poster was pointing out that in his opinion Jordan's approach might benefit from a little tweaking. If Jordan is to improve this community hearing contrary views will help him figure out how best to manage this community to be in service to "all".

 

Sorry, posting videos is forbidden in the no-fun zone.

We can't be for everyone, and we accept that. We try and keep things light and fun because life can be pretty awful, and given there's a raging pandemic out there (points to window) these online spaces are an escape from that.

Appreciate the honest dialog.

[Kjell Iver Johansen]

9 hours ago, Chris Anderson said:

Jordan's approach to community management may serve him well on his board but might not work 100% of the time here.

[The Old Man]

Thanks everyone for their responses and thoughts either way. 😊

[Linux-Is-Best]

12 hours ago, The Old Man said:

I should be flogged. Publicly, in the village square

Come, now. We're much more civilized. It should be live streamed. 😂

 

Your point is taken. Sorry.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Linux-Is-Best