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  • 7 months later...
7 hours ago, Alfonso Moreno said:

I would love to have something like LearnDash LMS WordPress plugin. The ones I saw in the Marketplace are very far from something like LearnDash, it's a pity. 

Many members have attempted to commission an LMS based on IPS over the years. 

You're never going to find a product as evolved as LearnDash in the IPS Marketplace.  You're just not.  A plug-in of that scope and scale requires custom development that's way more money than what clients are willing to pay.  You're also going to be stuck with a system that's not going to be well supported or well developed, and you'll be tied to all future development.  

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5 hours ago, Joel R said:

Many members have attempted to commission an LMS based on IPS over the years. 

You're never going to find a product as evolved as LearnDash in the IPS Marketplace.  You're just not.  A plug-in of that scope and scale requires custom development that's way more money than what clients are willing to pay.  You're also going to be stuck with a system that's not going to be well supported or well developed, and you'll be tied to all future development.  

I'm sorry but despite what you say I'm still pretty confident.

A promising LMS application was released in the summer of 2018 and it's almost 3 years since it is still in beta without any real evolution at the present time.

The logic of things is that one should stop believing in it and be realistic in seeing it since its development is clearly neglected.

But it seems that very soon a version with the integrated Quiz should finally be released.

Frankly, an LMS is really nothing special, complicated that cannot be done on IPS.

It is just a matter of being able to present schools, subject categories, lessons in video or downloadable PDF format, and make the school or lesson categories payable.

Thing that IPS can do very well as they have Commerce.

Regarding the management of groups and members, IPS is its strong point, word press is far behind.

Lots of things also on word press can sadly only be done from the admin panel.

And what is done from the admin panel here, IPS is much better and more user-friendly

The big problem is knowing it and understanding what is blocking at IPS, why today in 2021, they are still not a progressive web app.

And I do not understand that we can write a blog post just to announce the possibility of being able to post anonymously.

Normally a monthly article should contain at least 5 new items of this type as this is not an extraordinary addition.

The future of IPS, and it's what seems to be happening, I only see it in the core of its cms, chat, group management, member, user profile, private messaging and interactivity (hopefully) between member: points, badge, trophy, ranking.

By having integrated Zapier, IPS accepted that we may need an external alternative specialized on a typical product because it is their specialty.

IPS has its members, its groups but offers the possibility of using Zendesk for customer service because Zendesk specializes in this and IPS is not its foundation to focus on a powerful database for customer management.

If all you need is simple customer service, IPS offers you something for that integrated and not very expensive in comparison, but if you want something more powerful, here is zendesk that integrates easily.

The same can be done with someone who wants to write a sales page using the word press environment, with a registration on thrive cart, and then registration and management of the member in the IPS environment.

There is a different vision of the web and its future.

Regarding this point, LMS, I do not think that the strong point is in the simple possibility of being able to make the environment also available on a mobile application because that is the real concern, difference, for me that I see here between learn dash and an LMS on IPS.

 I do not see anything extraordinary, to present lessons by categories in video format or in download. IPS can do this very well.

Regarding the interactivity between member or group, I am convinced that IPS is stronger but also in the user-friendliness concerning the administration as well as the admin panel for the webmaster.

I do not expect much from the design to display video or pdf, except for simplicity so no comparison to make here.

If I had to compare two LMSs my question is which LMS achieves high engagement and result rate at the lowest cost.

This is because the dropout rate in distance education is extremely high.

Design and everything else is only secondary ... especially what's best and simplest today is what's uncluttered and heavy with a lot of unnecessary stuff.

I expect more real progress on a rate of engagement and success for the students and this at a lower cost, because it requires careful monitoring of each member.

It is not possible to make everything automated, at some point you need to be in front of a real human, a real follow-up, and to have encouragement from a real human and no more from a score given by a quiz.

I think that gamification through achievement badges, points, scoreboards, and collective mutual aid in clubs can relieve the costs quite well in order to make it easier to bring real things into remote teaching.

Without it, the teaching and study environment will be boring and dropouts extremely high.

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8 hours ago, Joel R said:

Many members have attempted to commission an LMS based on IPS over the years. 

You're never going to find a product as evolved as LearnDash in the IPS Marketplace.  You're just not.  A plug-in of that scope and scale requires custom development that's way more money than what clients are willing to pay.  

Maybe I'm more optimistic, but I do think there is potential for Invision to implement an incredible LMS system, and I do see a lot of value in it. It *can* be done. How and when is unclear, but if there's a lot of demand for it I can take this idea to the team and see what they think. Poor guys, I'm hammering them with ideas 😂 but also having too many ideas then not enough is a good problem to have. 

 

8 hours ago, Joel R said:

You're also going to be stuck with a system that's not going to be well supported or well developed, and you'll be tied to all future development.  

That is the same for Wordpress though. I do think it's possible to offer a great product and great support here. 🙏 

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2 hours ago, annadaa said:

I think that gamification through achievement badges, points, scoreboards, and collective mutual aid in clubs can relieve the costs quite well in order to make it easier to bring real things into remote teaching.

Hey @annadaa 👋 Great point! We were talking about gamification in this topic. Have you seen it? Please weigh in there as well! 🙏 
 

 

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8 hours ago, Jordan Invision said:

That is the same for Wordpress though.

feels game of thrones GIF

Wordpress is at a level of saturation that on a completely different plane of existence than IPS.

I've been involved with very large online learning platforms in the past, and were I thinking about an LMS today that needed a community component outside of the classroom, I'd be looking at an established option and focusing my energies on integration of the sign-on/session process and theming with IPS.

I'm not sure what you're creating your course content with, but there are a few standards (SCORM, AICC, etc.) and serious commercial and open-source players in the LMS market that are best-in-class experiences and used at for-profit and not-for-profit institutions globally. Any one of them likely has a larger userbase than IPS. This is a wheel I would need serious motivation to try and reinvent. If you have a need for this, it's very likely you have a dependency on this working, and putting this into the fateful hands of a single third-party developer would be an organizational decision I would not want to have to admit responsibility for.

Spanner's LMS application had a total of 9 purchases in Marketplace. LMS may mean different things for different people, yet if you're wanting something of the likes of Sakai, Moodle, Canvas, during a time when the need for distance learning is skyrocketing, and all attention and resources are focused on these specialized tools, I just don't see how that would fit into IPS' business model this late in the game.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I understand that if one thing will not really change at IPS, it is more or less how the forum works (discussion-message) and it has been this system for about twenty years or more.

It seems to work very well for discussion forums about sports, games, ...


But on the point that I have strong doubts, and which I think it is time today to stop hoping and believing, is that in the coming years there will be even more new communities created around of this system of discussions concerning all themes.

______________


Today if a person has a health problem, will they end up on a discussion forum talking about It and then post their problem to discuss it?

I think not, it is very likely that she will come across an article site related to the subject and offering training to get out of this problem.

We'd rather have a rich article straight to the point than read lots of people discussing it.

Therefore, I think it would be good in the future if it is possible to write a quality article on page with a tool similar to optimizpress, thrive architect on wordpress


Below this article, guest comments about this problem.

And to go further, a private forum, coaching, videos, quizzes, interaction, and motivation to get out of this problem between private members.

I think downloads needs to be updated to become an LMS because just sharing files is no longer attractive today.

This is the logical continuation after the creation of downloads 10 years ago now.

Edited by annadaa
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10 minutes ago, annadaa said:

Today if a person has a health problem, will they end up on a discussion forum talking about It and then post their problem to discuss it?

I think not, it is very likely that she will come across an article site related to the subject and offering training to get out of this problem.

We'd rather have a rich article straight to the point than read lots of people discussing it.

Therefore, I think it would be good in the future if it is possible to write a quality article on page with a tool similar to optimizpress, thrive architect on wordpress


Below this article, guest comments about this problem.

Hey @annadaa, don't give up on us yet 😉 

Invision Community has a powerful CMS option built in. You can use the Blogs app or even Pages. Have you checked them out?

https://invisioncommunity.com/features/content#blogs

Regarding this: "We'd rather have a rich article straight to the point than read lots of people discussing it." Why not both? 🙂

I think people with a health problem would love to read more information about it and participate in a discussion with others. I think both are important. When someone is potentially facing a health struggle, with a community, they have the opportunity to find support so it's less scary. 

I do agree with you that LMS is important and could elevate Invision Community even further. 🙏 

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On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Paul E. said:

… I just don't see how that would fit into IPS' business model this late in the game.

watch this look here GIF by Paul McCartney

Even the existing “additional” apps (Pages, Blogs, Gallery, Downloads, Commerce) only get minor improvements every 1,5 to 2 years. IPS doesn’t have the resources to add another full-fledged app with the required functionality and if you look at which sites use Invision Community, only a fraction even has a use for an LMS. So it just doesn’t work. 

I am seeing paths to possible compromises though. For example: if Pages databases were coming to Clubs, clubs could be sold or offered for free as a “course” you sign up for—with all the lessons added as Pages database records, plus course forums, course calendar and so on. It still wouldn’t have all the bells and whistles of a LMS, but it could be a good solution for many and be fully native to Invision Community. 

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4 hours ago, opentype said:

watch this look here GIF by Paul McCartney

Even the existing “additional” apps (Pages, Blogs, Gallery, Downloads, Commerce) only get minor improvements every 1,5 to 2 years. IPS doesn’t have the resources to add another full-fledged app with the required functionality and if you look at which sites use Invision Community, only a fraction even has a use for an LMS. So it just doesn’t work. 

I am seeing paths to possible compromises though. For example: if Pages databases were coming to Clubs, clubs could be sold or offered for free as a “course” you sign up for—with all the lessons added as Pages database records, plus course forums, course calendar and so on. It still wouldn’t have all the bells and whistles of a LMS, but it could be a good solution for many and be fully native to Invision Community. 

 

An LMS at IPS does not necessarily have to be offered only to people who have a basic forum here.

A lot of people start in the web world as a webmaster just to sell training.

to IPS to know how to sell to these people and attract them by showing them, that it is much more user-friendly and interactive than word press and the LMS learn dash with its third-party applications to work (bb press. member press, BuddyPress .. .)

It is certain that without the LMS, there is a huge shortfall.

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1 hour ago, annadaa said:

An LMS at IPS does not necessarily have to be offered only to people who have a basic forum here …

Sure. But that argument could be used for literally hundreds of functions and services that IPS could theoretically build to attract some new audience. Because it works for everything, it doesn’t mean much. 
As Paul already said, there a many many LMS providers already out there, who have worked for years in teams exclusively on this one product—so they are far ahead and will likely always remain ahead for years to come. It makes very little sense that IPS starts from scratch to compete with them through a completely new app, just to maybe get a few new customers in a competitive market, when at the same time, 98% of the current user base don’t have any use for that function. It makes much more sense to stay competitive in the markets they already serve and focus on the apps they already have. (By the way: Chat was already killed. Blogs almost. So as history shows, they are rather narrowing down their app portfolio, not extending it—e.g. just to attract some new people selling trainings.)

I appreciate that some users really really want it (and I would like it too actually as my sites are very education-based), but lets be reasonable about it and not try to convince IPS with rhetorics. Saying it’s really really needed or even “required” doesn’t make it so and IPS doesn’t fall for that anyway. They know their user base in its entirety. 

Edited by opentype
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Just now, opentype said:

Sure. But that argument could be used for literally hundreds of functions and services that IPS could theoretically build to attract some new audience. Because it works for everything, it doesn’t mean much. 
As Paul already said, there a many many LMS providers already out there, who have worked for years in teams exclusively on this one product—so they are far ahead and will likely always remain ahead for years to come. It makes very little sense that IPS starts from scratch to compete with them through a completely new app, just to maybe get a few new customers in a competitive market, when at the same time, 98% of the current user base don’t have any use for that function. It makes much more sense to stay competitive in the markets they already serve and focus on the apps they already have. (By the way: Chat was already killed. Blogs almost. So as history shows, they are rather narrowing down their app portfolio, not extending it—e.g. just to attract some new people selling trainings.)

I appreciate that some users really really want it (and I would like it too actually as my sites are very education-based), but lets be reasonable about it and not try to convince IPS with rhetorics. Saying it’s really really needed doesn’t make it so and IPS doesn’t fall for that anyway. They know their user base in its entirety. 

 

in fact i don't know if you know what you are talking about and know what an LMS is?

you say IPS is starting from scratch. A sufficient LMS is based on the presentation of courses in video or pdf format and the validation of these by validation quizzes.

where is the head start?

it is rather IPS which disposes it by the management of user group and member ...

the only head start they have over IPS is in smartphone use because IPS has not been seriously concerned with this point for years.

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@opentype I do agree with you in that it's important for us to focus on certain apps that we're thriving in. Allocating resources to an area (like LMS) that we're less familiar in could theoretically inhibit growth where we excel. 

@annadaaHowever, I also see what you're saying. LMS could attract a new audience to Invision Community which is always great. 

I'd be curious to see how we (as a community) could meet in the middle. Create a LMS that's sufficient and powerful, but not overly complicated. 

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