Push for Mobile first

[DesignzShop]

18 minutes ago, Dylan Riggs said:

I'm talking about IPS out of the box, with no modifications/themes etc

 

Personally, the last thing I want is more stuff on my phone taking up real-estate. Being a dev and having all my local clients websites on my phone will not be very good. We'll see how this works out if IPB strips their software of the state it's in now for a mobile app. I don't know IPB's plans for that, I do know I'm one that wont care for that route. I can also guarantee a lot of my clients wont want to purchase a separate mobile app. Many of them have praised the software as it is now because they get mobile without the app and additional costs to have one and keep one maintained.

[Dylan Riggs]

Just now, DesignzShop said:

 

Personally, the last thing I want is more stuff on my phone taking up real-estate. Being a dev and having all my local clients websites on my phone will not be very good. We'll see how this works out if IPB strips their software of the state it's in now for a mobile app. I don't know IPB's plans for that, I do know I'm one that wont care for that route.

I really don't think you're understanding my view/argument on this entire thread. Read the first post and then my next couple of posts. I'm not talking about a mobile app. I'm talking about introducing mobile VIEW improvements to make the browsing on a phone/tablet much better and intuitive than from a desktop experience shrunk down to mobile friendliness.

Right now, I can go through with 5-6 different UI/UX changes that will significantly improve the mobile experience. If you think IPS's mobile friendliness is good, that's fine. It works, I don't have a problem with it, but I can tell you - I prefer browsing IPS with a desktop or even a tablet because mobile friendliness is sub-optimal and I'm not alone in this. I can tell you and it's been backed by MANY statistics that the majority of the Web uses mobile devices, you agreed with this.

I'm not asking to have IPS strip the site away or reduce its feature set. I'm only asking for an improved approach for the mobile experience. Typically what this means is "Designing the viewer's experience in a specific approach" and in our cases in todays world, that means having all the features that IPS has to offer and make the experience work best for the vast majority of our users... which is on a mobile device.

Worst case scenario, they introduce a mobile theme and a desktop theme, just like what big companies do, it is just harder for a company like IPS with its limited logistical support.

There is a reason why FORUMS themselves are dying out, and I believe a lot of this has to do with the fact that hardly ANY modern forum software has a mobile first approach except a couple. Guess what, while I don't like Discourse, it's much more popular and has only been around for 1/5th the time IPS has been around. Flarum I believe is the best LOOKING mobile software, but it's BETA and has been SLOW in development for many years now.

Experience isn't JUST about how it looks. You can open 5-10 topics the same time  you open one here. The technology, the backend that's powering it is just better. 

None of it is proprietary, it's simply the developers using POPULAR open based frameworks/JS etc and building a product off of it. This helps reiterate why it's important for 3rd party development which also reinforces client based work. Something that IPS is also lacking in.

How many theme developers are there still? I used to be a big one of them some moons ago. Now, I can count a handful and then for applications/plugins, also a handful.

10 years ago, it was at least more than a few dozen handfuls ;). Moderninzing the software will promote itself enough. I hope.

[Fast Lane!]

We have a forum with 2-3,000 people online during the afternoons.  We are 55% mobile, 43% desktop, 2% tablet.

Invision is mostly desktop here IMO because we are all developers and do content creation from a desk/laptop.  Content ingestion on the other hand is mostly mobile.  Which is where the pageviews and monetization are from ads.  I'm against mobile apps that do not monetize as good or better than a responsive design that caters to mobile and desktop.  We HEAVILY leverage Google DFP w/ prebid and a large stack of media companies.  Mobile app usage may be good for view-ability but if it doesn't monetize as well -- then why would people ultimately convert...

[kmk]

1 hour ago, Dylan Riggs said:

Typically what this means is "Designing the viewer's experience in a specific approach" and in our cases in todays world, that means having all the features that IPS has to offer and make the experience work best for the vast majority of our users... which is on a mobile device.

+1

[Sonya*]

Pushing for mobile - means, you would like to have notifications on your phone, right?

I am asking because I am a kind of Janus user. I do like notifications but I hate mobile apps. I'd rather use mobile view of the sites than apps. Examples are: Gmail, Facebook, Amazon. The apps offer me castrated functionality hiding functions that I like und need. Probably I am the only one who thinks so.  I do not like writing on mobile, tablet and so on. I even use What's App on my desktop  I have also tested Invision app - the same. I like notifications but I do not like the app. For the same reason I do not like apps of the giants listed above. It is just very very limited and I wonder why someone would wish to use something limited if there is responsive version designed for mobile and offer full functionality?

[Dylan Riggs]

Here is an example that I’m talking about. Right now, I’m posting this reply from my phone. 
 

this paragraph did not auto capitalize. I had to swipe up on my iPhone about 8x to reach the bottom of the page to click the reply button.
 

even though I read the entire thread except your last post, Sonya  I was taken to the very top of the page, which caused uncesessary scrolling.

as I’m typing, I have to scroll down more to click the post reply button.
 

some easy improvements: take you to last reply. It is hit or miss. Add a feature similar to how flarum has it, where you can drag a bar to scroll through posts in real time, much faster than swiping 8 plus times for every 2 posts.

None of this changes the functionality of the software, just the theme being more “modern” for mobile use and just more intuitive.

Didn’t gain any features, didn’t lose any features. But there is 2 to 4 ideas or fixes to make the responsiveness feel better and more intuitive to use.

not the best of examples, since I don’t like to type on mobile either, but still.... there you go

 

[Sonya*]

@Dylan Riggs i am with you in point of improving mobile usability. There are some points like tabs that I do not like on mobile. However I still do not know what is the advantage of app towards mobile view. 

Except of notifications. Why we cannot use something like pushover service with responsive view? Should it really be an app? Why? 

[Dylan Riggs]

Apps just open the door for niche markets and unique branding. I don’t personally care for it, I may or may not use it. The point of apps is that it’s still what a vast majority of users have access too, familiar with and can introduce unique features that even mobile views don’t support. 
 

really, deeper integration. I’m excited to see that, but I would still like enhanced mobile views to hold over. 

[Sonya*]

I just see a very very long development time to get everything IPS has into app plus customization like 3rd party plugins. I am not familiar with app development but it looks like if there were one, every community would looks the same as other. No personalization, no additional features... What should I do with my custom applications and plugins that are core for my community? What about 3rd party apps and hooks that are essential and not just gimmicks?

Should I learn to develop apps to extend it? If the app only wraps custom apps in mobile view, so again why I need an app? Is it not sufficient to just push the notifications?

[Dylan Riggs]

Not sure about the application aspect. What I did with one community is wrap IPS inside a mobile framework (I think it was ionic) and then redesigned the front-end to be mobile first approached.

So really, the end user couldn’t tell if it was an application or a website. That’s the best of both worlds. I have a feeling that this is somewhat similar to the approach IPS will take for the communities here. Provide an application that users can download and then ‘load’ a website into it or something. I’m not sure. I have not looked into anything IPS in the past several years, really. Not too sure what IPS application will be all about.

[Sonya*]

43 minutes ago, Dylan Riggs said:

I have a feeling that this is somewhat similar to the approach IPS will take for the communities here.

They have an app for forums and en "embed" view for other components, like Pages and Downloads right now. That makes forum part uncustomizable in my eyes. 

[christopher-w]

54 minutes ago, Sonya* said:

I just see a very very long development time to get everything IPS has into app plus customization like 3rd party plugins. I am not familiar with app development but it looks like if there were one, every community would looks the same as other. No personalization, no additional features... What should I do with my custom applications and plugins that are core for my community? What about 3rd party apps and hooks that are essential and not just gimmicks?

Should I learn to develop apps to extend it? If the app only wraps custom apps in mobile view, so again why I need an app? Is it not sufficient to just push the notifications?

I think you make very, very good points and can't help feeling that app development will add to, not solve current issues.

 

[CoffeeCake]

Adding to what others have stated, by no means do I believe an application, installed from Apple App Store or Google Play Store on a mobile device is the direction I'd like to see improvements in. @Dylan Riggs has made some excellent observations on improvements that could be made to the responsive mobile web browser experience.

[Claudia999]

20 hours ago, DesignzShop said:

Show us the stats proof on that and let us know what type of subject your site is about please.

We have a health related community and he're the stats from December:

 

[Jordan Miller]

85% of my site's traffic reads via mobile. 

[DesignzShop]

4 hours ago, Claudia999 said:

We have a health related community and he're the stats from December:

Certainly falls within the average. Very good and thank you for sharing.

34 minutes ago, breatheheavy said:

85% of my site's traffic reads via mobile.

I notice you posted no hard data to back that up. 

[Dylan Riggs]

9 hours ago, Claudia999 said:

We have a health related community and he're the stats from December:

 

So roughly 76% for mobile use, if you lump mobile with tablet and phablet?

[DesignzShop]

16 hours ago, Dylan Riggs said:

So roughly 76% for mobile use, if you lump mobile with tablet and phablet?

Were talking mobile phone that changes the usage look in whole. A tablet view falls under desktop view more than phone, you still see the regular menus and post profiles etc.... When I use my tablet (at home) it still looks the same as desktop. People as a general rule do not carry their tablets around and a phone. So no, not 76%.

[Dylan Riggs]

2 hours ago, DesignzShop said:

Were talking mobile phone that changes the usage look in whole. A tablet view falls under desktop view more than phone, you still see the regular menus and post profiles etc.... When I use my tablet (at home) it still looks the same as desktop. People as a general rule do not carry their tablets around and a phone. So no, not 76%.

I think you should research that much more. 
It wasn’t until iPad OS where desktop views were standard eg, last 5 months. Android tablets (which makes up only 25% of tablets for web consumption ) were still “mobile” in browsing experiences.

This means that when a tablet went to site abc.com they were prioritized with a mobile experience. In fact they still are, even with latest tablets that have the technology to run sites fine. Most sites will detect the OS and then render the site base on the experience.

If it’s just a responsive site cough like IPS cough. Then it’s just a responsive site and is site specific on how the overall design looks and feels. IPS works just fine on tablet, phone and desktop.

It’s responsive so it doesn’t matter. However, sites can be designed for a certain experience and then supported for others, just like IPS does. 

Here is the issue, what gets hidden on mobile vs tablet for desktop? You’ve written some themes here, right? So you know the css tag that hides the element from mobile. Which reinforces my argument of “not optimizing mobile use”. Which supports my argument of designing a front end theme for the lowest common denominator (think iPhone 4’s 3” screen) and get the whole system intuitive to use and scale up. Not the other way around and then remove features from responsive views just to “make things fit”

To take it further, all tablets are pretty much TOUCH based which is easier to deal with on a mobile experience than a desktop one.

Hence why all tablets, phablets, phones are lumped into “mobile”. They aren’t laptops, they don’t render the same way, they have mice and keyboard that make the site functions differently.

So no, I was not talking about “mobile phones”

I was talking about mobile devices, which all tablets, phones and phablets are “mobile” devices and lumped together when getting statistics.
 

Desktops and laptops are lumped together and if we wanted to take your stance for it, those desktop numbers the user supported would probably be about half since I’m willing to bet a lot of that consumption was on a laptop, more specifically a 2-1 device, which still renders as desktop despite using a mobile experience when browsing.

I feel like you’re in denial about mobile devices being a huge majority of web consumption and not a slight “above average”

I would trust my statistics and any web analytic over ISPs. All they do is direct traffic. Sure they also data mine it too, but I know what happens specifically on my site and so does everyone else for theirs. Telling them that without numbers, there’s no proof isn’t a valid argument or even worth the debate. If someone came to me and said “my site uses 7% desktop” that’s totally believable and understandable simply because there are so many reasons why a community can have influence on a certain type of media consumption . I would believe if they said they had 93% desktop.

1. Mobile devices now a days out number desktops and laptops.

2. Desktops and laptops are now a days more used for content creation and work. While media consumption is being pushed towards mobile. Again, mobile is anything touch based.

I still prefer my desktop for browsing experience, but let’s be real. It’s more convenient out of a phone and a tablet.

 

 

 

[DesignzShop]

2 hours ago, Dylan Riggs said:

It wasn’t until iPad OS where desktop views were standard eg, last 5 months.

You don't even know what you're talking about.

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Hence why all tablets, phablets, phones are lumped into “mobile”

Wrong again, there's a reason why in those stats you see tablets listed SEPARATE from mobile. They are NOT considered to be in the same category.. If they were then the stats would show that. Fact..

Quote

I was talking about mobile devices, which all tablets, phones and phablets are “mobile” devices and lumped together when getting statistics.

For goodness sakes, look at those stats, you don't see them lumped together, you're lumping them together, not the industry.
 

Here's my 5 year old iPad

 

Here's my 5yr old iPad on this thread taken just now, notice the profile view, notice pagination, notice the entire head above the post. The ONLY thing you see different from desktop view is the menu. 90% of my 5 year old iPad is desktop view..

 

Besides this, as you've said...
 

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It wasn’t until iPad OS where desktop views were standard eg, last 5 months

 

So what that means is we're working now in ALL tablets to desktop view. AGAIN, two totally different views and monsters here.

I also have a new Samsung tablet that's full desktop view. ALL tablets are mostly desktop view. End of story. Just because something is mobile doesn't mean everything that is needs to be designed in phone view, only phones need to be due to their viewport size. 

And from the man himself!

And pay special attention to THIS.. The marketing gimmick! Then pay special attention to where tablets are mostly used by the facts!

Quote

Apple had successfully marketed the lightweight, portable iPad as a mobile device. So the reporters in the room were incredulous that Zuckerberg didn't call the iPad a mobile gadget.

Two years later, it's clear that Zuckerberg was right. The iPad isn't any more of a mobile gadget than a MacBook Air. The iPad is just a PC.

As you can see in this chart from our Death of the PC presentation, over 90% of tablet usage is done right inside the home.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-calling-ipads-mobile-devices-2013-1

 

Dylan, I feel like you’re in denial about mobile devices being a huge majority of web consumption and not a slight “above average” because you don't understand what  is considered a mobile device.

Really, all you want to do here is argue. It really must suck to be one of the sheep. 😄 

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So roughly 76% for mobile use, if you lump mobile with tablet and phablet?

Wrong and exaggerated!

 

[DesignzShop]

1 hour ago, Dylan Riggs said:

I feel like you’re in denial about mobile devices being a huge majority of web consumption and not a slight “above average”

No one denied mobile phones are above usage from desktops, laptops and TABLETS! As a matter of fact, I put the stats up that agreed with that.

That's why you see the stats list tablets separate from phones. You can come out of denial at anytime.

[CoffeeCake]

@Dylan Riggs thanks for helping educate and for raising awareness.

[DesignzShop]

Part of our duty as a consumer is to raise awareness of issues/bugs through IPB support. They can't fix everything without mass support to identify the issues. Some of these issues mentioned here could of been reported, not only could of but should of been. The question is, why weren't they?

I've been here a loooong time, I can tell you IPB may not get it that day, but they do get it. Sometimes in this case some UI designs need to be addressed and modified that aren't bugs, those particular fixes come in major version releases. Those particular references need to be addressed in a specific forum here for future reference. I strongly encourage UI changes be put to the proper area in this forum for reference, I do also encourage end-users to report the bugs as separate issues with support and help all whom use the software no matter what the device is. Use the tools available to you.

as for the rest, IPB has already stated their working on a mobile solution. We'll all see where that bridge takes us and will cross it when the time comes. It appears Mobile will be addressed at some point in the new year.

[Dylan Riggs]

Here, let me break this down for you, simpleton and then I'll be done replying to you. I have said all I need to say. We're not getting any feedback with the debating. And you still fail to comprehend what the suggestions are for anyways as you keep focusing on something that is irrelevant here. 

  4 hours ago, Dylan Riggs said:

It wasn’t until iPad OS where desktop views were standard eg, last 5 months.

Quote

You don't even know what you're talking about.

1. Yes I do - What this meant is when you browse MOST "optimized" websites, they have a MOBILE theme, are responsive or they just don't have any support. MOBILE devices will be selected for the mobile theme. Hence why you can open a page and then "Request desktop view" in all browsers in order to get the full experience. That said, there are many sites out there where the mobile theme is just not the same compared to desktop browsing and is lacking features (think mobile theme for 3.x). Sucks for the site, but it's a true statement. Guess which devices do the rendering of mobile themes? phones, tablets and phablets. 😮 because that's what they are.... mobile devices.

Sites that are greatly "optimized" either A. Have a mobile theme or are B. The UI has a "Mobile first" approach since a vast majority of its users are using said mobile devices.

To prove you wrong about the statement saying that "I'm wrong": iPAD OS made it so that it allowed SAFARI to bypass the "Request for desktop version" and automatically displayed it.  See here:  https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/ios-13-makes-easier-request-desktop-mobile-sites-for-webpages-your-iphone-0198650/

Or Apples official site: https://www.apple.com/ipados/ - Scroll down to "Safari" and take a little reading leisure.  I'm not 100% familiar with Android tablets, but I believe chrome still prompts you to request desktop view and not render it automatically. Prove me if I'm wrong and which Android tablet supports "Desktop class" browsing out of the box. I'll wait. Which also brings me to my next point:

This is why I know you lack the understanding - RESPONSIVE sites don't have these requests, therefor IPS's own site that you used as an example is a terrible example as it's a responsive design and solely only changes based on the users viewport. My argument in this ENTIRE thread has been that it does NOT have a Mobile FIRST approach. It has desktop first and then the smaller your screen gets, the more features are hidden out of your view. That is NOT the right approach or the direction that the web is going. Sorry pal, I'm no sheep here. I'm the T-Rex eating it. I will however say, that I think IPS did a great job on the responsive design when viewed in tablet viewports. I am really pleased with tablet, but that's about it.

Quote

Hence why all tablets, phablets, phones are lumped into “mobile”

 

Quote

 

Wrong again, there's a reason why in those stats you see tablets listed SEPARATE from mobile. They are NOT considered to be in the same category.. If they were then the stats would show that. Fact..

 

 

 

2.  Where is this "fact"? - statistics are simply that, statistics. On our web anaylitcs, we can see the entire breakdown of every OS, and device usage down to what resolution size the browsers people are viewing from. That's why they're broke apart, not because they're classified differently. It's just to help gauge what users are using so that you can plan how to approach the design and functionality of your site. If you want to take the stance that they're separated because they're different devices, fine. But.................

Here is proof that I'm right: https://edu.gcfglobal.org/en/computerbasics/mobile-devices/1/
Straight from google: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+are+mobile+devices&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS881US881&oq=what+are+mobile+devices&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j0l6.2888j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

In fact, I can find about I don't know... 100 different results in matter of minutes supporting this. 

Sure, you can interpret the statistics however you want. You can break them up if you want, but look at it this way. That 78% was on TOUCH based devices ;). They are still rendering a mobile theme for sites that support it, or are simply attaching to the responsive viewport.

Quote

 

So what that means is we're working now in ALL tablets to desktop view. AGAIN, two totally different views and monsters here.

I also have a new Samsung tablet that's full desktop view. ALL tablets are mostly desktop view. End of story. Just because something is mobile doesn't mean everything that is needs to be designed in phone view, only phones need to be due to their viewport size. 

And from the man himself!

And pay special attention to THIS.. The marketing gimmick! Then pay special attention to where tablets are mostly used by the facts!

 

?  Quote

Apple had successfully marketed the lightweight, portable iPad as a mobile device. So the reporters in the room were incredulous that Zuckerberg didn't call the iPad a mobile gadget.

Two years later, it's clear that Zuckerberg was right. The iPad isn't any more of a mobile gadget than a MacBook Air. The iPad is just a PC.

As you can see in this chart from our Death of the PC presentation, over 90% of tablet usage is done right inside the home.

 

Quote

https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-calling-ipads-mobile-devices-2013-1

 

3. Don't even get me started on that article from business insider - First, it's cast aside as that article was written in 2013 and the quote you provided was for Zuckerberg's comment MADE in 2011. Guess what wasn't widely adopted thing in 2011? Responsive design nor mobile-first as an approach. Everyone was still using mobile themes, including IPS. Heck we were still on 3.x then, lol.

Proof: https://thrivehive.com/responsive-design-history/
While you're at it, take a stab at what "mobile-first" approach really is and get a good concept of it. Maybe you should start redesigning your themes for it? ;).

And if Steve Jobs says it's a Mobile device vs's Mark in 2010. Let's look at the real fact. What browsing experience do you get with Facebook on a phone, tablet and desktop? You get a mobile theme on phone/tablet/phablet. You get a desktop theme on the desktop. Even Facebook developed by "the man himself" is doing it correctly.

Trust me, I don't follow any gimmicks. I'm following exactly how any of this mobile stuff works. You browse the internet and you go to Amazon.com from a desktop, you get a desktop view. You go on a tablet or a phone, you will get a mobile device view. That is a fact. You pulling up IPS is still reinforcing my argument because it is a RESPONSIVE website and that. is. all.

You go to IPS from a desktop, you get the full experience, you go on a tablet you have removed features and or a modified look/feel. You go on phone, you have more removed features. Again, with IPS's software, you only get the full browsing experience from the Desktop... unless us UI/UX designers fix it (I'll leave you out of it until you understand it), which is why I keep telling you about the mobile first approach. If you design the UI/UX for the lowest common denominator (phones) and scale up, everyone will be in a much better, happier place. I'm much much more productive on a desktop, there is no argument there. As I'm sitting here picking your post apart, I'm doing it from the comfort of my desktop because it would have taken me a lot of frustration doing it from an iPhone or even a tablet.

And to calm your panties. I don't want any features removed out of IPS (I've said this 10x now) - I only want a better approach for mobile users and if you really think that's a bad idea. You might want to reconsider your designz shop. *mic drop*

In all fairness. I enjoy the debate and no hard feelings. You can believe what you want to believe, design how you want to design, market however you want to market. The proof is in the pudding. Take a look at even the short amount of posts here and what statistics they offered up and take with it what you will, believe what you want to believe. Don't trust them or trust them. In time, you'll see. Even Matt mentioned they acknowledged a mobile first approach, that seals the deal. I just hope it comes sooner than later

 

 

 

 

 

[DesignzShop]

 

35 minutes ago, Dylan Riggs said:

Sure, you can interpret the statistics however you want. You can break them up if you want, but look at it this way. That 78% was on TOUCH based devices ;). They are still rendering a mobile theme for sites that support it, or are simply attaching to the responsive viewport.

Touche base devices are not correct for just mobile or tablet

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/all-in-one-computers/touch-screen-computers/pcmcat190000050014.c?id=pcmcat190000050014

I'm seriously on the floor laughing here. 

https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/mobilemarketer/cms/opinion/columns/15425.html
 

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2. Google says so, basically
A short while ago, Google rolled out a significant change to its advertising platform, AdWords, which it calls called Enhanced Campaigns.

The product enhancement creates a scalable system for managing campaigns across multiple devices.

The release is a huge shift in segmentation strategy because it enables advertisers to segment keywords to smartphones for performance measurement ? but will not allow for segmentation of tablet separate from desktop.

Translation: With Enhanced Campaigns, advertisers will no longer be able to separate tablet devices from desktops.

Performance gains realized from tablet segmentation will no longer be supported.

Even Google is starting to make the distinction between smartphones and tablets because consumers are using the devices very differently.

If the metrics from smartphones and tablets cannot be measured in the same way, then why would we ever lump them into the same category?

 

https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-a-mobile-device-2373355

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-smartphone-and-a-tablet-1

https://seriouslysimplemarketing.com/are-tablets-considered-mobile-devices/

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So where does the tablet fit in the grand scheme of things? Do you chat on your tablet as you cross the street? Browse online while you’re strolling through the mall?

No.

 

And I don't have a hundred results showing for this from Google, but an astounding

About 295,000,000 results

 

37 minutes ago, Dylan Riggs said:

As I'm sitting here picking your post apart

Not even close... roflmao

Again, there's a reason the industry doesn't blend tablets into mobile devices iin stats or otherwise, again, everybody knew this but the Apple sheep.

I understand very well, you don't get it, and that's ok. I didn't expect you to from your past here. Even people knew years ago iPads were mini pcs. That's why the majority of them are used in home. Those that bought into the hype like you were sheep who couldn't see outside the box. You can sit here all day and cry about your stance and get your pink panties in a bunch for all I care, you are wrong.