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Could this sentence be improved?


EnzoC
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No that would not work, because the translation depends again on the sentence used. ;) And you forget... what when you is used as multiple persons? Anyway, as said. I don't mind but I don't think anything will be changed because it's indeed a trivial world with too many differences.

Have a nice evening.;)

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It's written perfectly appropriately for English and in a way which indicates that you can distinguish plurality if translating. I don't see why the English should be rewritten with a needless distinc

I repeat once again, if IPS is intended only for the English mother tongue is fine with your reasoning, but if it is intended to serve more languages, then IPS must implement this, or could find a mid

It’s a matter of logic, consistency and efficiency. The English phrase is constructed for English. The special requirements for other languages are added to the translations (and the translators need

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3 hours ago, Black Tiger said:

No that would not work, because the translation depends again on the sentence used. 😉 And you forget... what when you is used as multiple persons? Anyway, as said. I don't mind but I don't think anything will be changed because it's indeed a trivial world with too many differences.

Have a nice evening.;)

Example:

 react_blurb_you             ( username)

react_blurb_you_and_others           (username)

react _blurb        %s {!# [1:ha reagito][?:hanno reagito]} qui

It could work in my opinion

Hello my friend now I go to sleep

Edited by ThunderBlue
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8 hours ago, Black Tiger said:

 

 

Again, that is no point of consideration, because translations are made by volunteers. And in case of the Dutch... English is a mandatory class in the Netherlands. So most do know English fairly well.

Anyway I don't mind, I just wanted to state my opinion that you can't expect a forum software creator to keep any of these differences in mind for so many different languages. 

You're right, but not all nations have evolved like the Netherlands, so IPS, if you want to market your application, should adapt. I am convinced that here in Italy, if we do not do the translation, would drastically decrease potential customers, I think this also applies to other countries.

1 hour ago, Meddysong said:

I've started a proper feedback topic on the question of inclusivity, ie conjugating a verb differently depending on whether the user is one of the people referred to. Before Enzo claims vindication for raising the issue, however, please re-read his posts; inclusivity wasn't the issue that he raised but simple singular vs plural. 

I think that in any language can not be said: "X, Y, Z saw the discussion, but it must be said, X, Y, Z have seen", am I wrong?

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On 3/9/2019 at 5:00 PM, EnzoC said:

This sentence is not adaptable to the plural as this link explains:

This instead, as I modified it, would be good both in English and in Italian, just try

As you can see the sentence was completely overturned compared to what this article explains:

Go read

 

There's a lot of discussion here so I'm having trouble following, but my understanding is that this is the crux of the suggestion.

If so, I see no point. As you, yourself, point out - it translates identically in English, so why add extra overhead and processing unnecessarily (and frankly, a majority of our clients speak English so that overhead adds up collectively).

It sounds like you simply weren't aware that you could separate the behavior by adjusting the string, and to that end the appropriate solution seems to be better education as to how the language system works. Is that a fair understanding, that you basically weren't aware you could adjust the strings as you ultimately did? Perhaps to that end, we could include some more tips on the translation page in the AdminCP how to work with these "pluralized" strings?

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5 hours ago, bfarber said:

There's a lot of discussion here so I'm having trouble following, but my understanding is that this is the crux of the suggestion.

If so, I see no point. As you, yourself, point out - it translates identically in English, so why add extra overhead and processing unnecessarily (and frankly, a majority of our clients speak English so that overhead adds up collectively).

It sounds like you simply weren't aware that you could separate the behavior by adjusting the string, and to that end the appropriate solution seems to be better education as to how the language system works. Is that a fair understanding, that you basically weren't aware you could adjust the strings as you ultimately did? Perhaps to that end, we could include some more tips on the translation page in the AdminCP how to work with these "pluralized" strings?

If it's the same thing, why not edit the string so that it is understandable in all languages? The undersigned is a few words, if this discussion has been prolonged, it is for the fact to explain well what was the problem, if you have established that pè the same thing, then it is better not to make controversy, change the sentence and the problem is Resolved. Maybe you do not know that there is a lot of work to adapt your language to the Italian language and it is not a justification that most of your clients are English speaking, this is your affirmation, just because nobody protests. I asked you simply to change a string from {!#[?:%s commented on]}%s to %s {!#[1: commented][?:commented]} on %s, stop !!!

Edited by EnzoC
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39 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

Maybe you do not know that there is a lot of work to adapt your language to the Italian language and it is not a justification that most of your clients are English speaking, this is your affirmation, just because nobody protests. I asked you simply to change a string from {!#[?:%s commented on]}%s to %s {!#[1: commented][?:commented]} on %s, stop !!!

Reason? I'll give you an example, see. Let's ask IPS to change English language strings just because there is a lot of work to adapt your language to the Russian language.

Quote

This is too hard to translate 'comments' language string, because in Russian it is {!# [*1:комментарий][*2:комментария][*3:комментария][*4:комментария][*11:комментариев][*12:комментариев][*13:комментариев][*14:комментариев][?:комментариев]}!

I just ask you to change the string from {!#[1:comment][?:comments]} to {!# [*1:comments][*2:comments][*3:comments][*4:comments][*11:comments][*12:comments][*13:comments][*14:comments][1:comment][?:comments]} because it's good for both English and Russian.

 

I won't continue. In other words. Sorry, but I don't want to see your language-specific cases in the original English language pack. Something is good for your language but is not good for other languages. Just respect other translators' time.

Edited by Ilya Hoilik
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27 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

If it's the same thing, why not edit the string …

That logic doesn’t work, because it works equally the other way around. Why change the English version to achieve absolutely nothing regarding the English version and make it possibly worse for other languages than your own?
You want something. You have the burden of proof. You don’t win by saying “If it doesn’t hurt, it should be done”. (Which probably isn’t even true here.)

30 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

better not to make controversy, change the sentence and the problem is Resolved. 

There is no controversy. You tried to make a case for a change and literally everyone disagreed. 

Bfarber put a question the table, how to better educate translators about their options. You didn’t address that, but that would actually be in your own interest I would think. 

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Perhaps it would be better to abandon IPS and go to the competition, save money as well, licenses are for life without paying every six months. You do not care about your customers' problems, just your earnings

Edited by EnzoC
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1 hour ago, opentype said:

That logic doesn’t work, because it works equally the other way around. Why change the English version to achieve absolutely nothing regarding the English version and make it possibly worse for other languages than your own?
You want something. You have the burden of proof. You don’t win by saying “If it doesn’t hurt, it should be done”. (Which probably isn’t even true here.) 

There is no controversy. You tried to make a case for a change and literally everyone disagreed. 

Bfarber put a question the table, how to better educate translators about their options. You didn’t address that, but that would actually be in your own interest I would think. 

You should print in your head, that the IPS application is not only sold to English-speaking users, but you will never understand this, you live in your world, with blinkers like horses. Remember, the world is not of the English, it's time to wake up there is something else and respect for all, this is commerce, otherwise those who are not English speakers are not allowed to buy IPS applications, or adapt.

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19 minutes ago, Meddysong said:

^^ He's German. Ilya is Russian. And I speak probably the most eclectic language of all. I think we probably understand that the suite isn't sold exclusively to English-speakers. 

is what I wrote, that IPS is not only sold to users of English language and apparently, also the Russians and the Dutch have translations that approach grammar to Italian. I would like you to explain to me why users buy the languages of their nationality, because maybe they don't speak or write in English, not because they don't want to do the translation, otherwise they would leave it in English, I hope you understood what I wanted to say.

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7 hours ago, EnzoC said:

You should print in your head, that the IPS application is not only sold to English-speaking users, but you will never understand this, you live in your world, with blinkers like horses. 

Stop the insults and focus on the arguments. We all understand your request. We use translated IPS sites! We have considered the change you want we found that it should not be made. For good reasons. You just need to read and understand Ilya’s post here: https://invisioncommunity.com/forums/topic/451280-could-this-sentence-be-improved/?do=findComment&comment=2780973

It’s a killer argument no one can deny. You want to change the English version so it contains two options, which would make it a tiny bit easier to translate to Italian. Great! But the same is not true for Russian, which would require a completely different set of options. So what you want doesn’t work! You should print in your head, that the IPS application is not only sold to Italian translators. It must work for English and all translations as well. That’s why the English version is made for English and the special requirements for other languages are added to those other languages. That is the right way to do it and this has been proven in this topic. 

 

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3 hours ago, opentype said:

Stop the insults and focus on the arguments. We all understand your request. We use translated IPS sites! We have considered the change you want we found that it should not be made. For good reasons. You just need to read and understand Ilya’s post here: https://invisioncommunity.com/forums/topic/451280-could-this-sentence-be-improved/?do=findComment&comment=2780973

It’s a killer argument no one can deny. You want to change the English version so it contains two options, which would make it a tiny bit easier to translate to Italian. Great! But the same is not true for Russian, which would require a completely different set of options. So what you want doesn’t work! You should print in your head, that the IPS application is not only sold to Italian translators. It must work for English and all translations as well. That’s why the English version is made for English and the special requirements for other languages are added to those other languages. That is the right way to do it and this has been proven in this topic.  

 

Your problem is that if they tell you the truth, for you it is an insult, you are touchy, the truth hurts, especially when they say it to your face, I don't change my mind, I wrote how I thought and I remain of my idea, if IPS wants to meet us well, otherwise sooner or later I will change type of forum.

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10 hours ago, EnzoC said:

is what I wrote, that IPS is not only sold to users of English language and apparently, also the Russians and the Dutch have translations that approach grammar to Italian. I would like you to explain to me why users buy the languages of their nationality, because maybe they don't speak or write in English, not because they don't want to do the translation, otherwise they would leave it in English, I hope you understood what I wanted to say.

It's not a question of forcing people to use English's grammar. I would complain too if that were true.

Your example is the opposite. Even though the English version doesn't change for number, IPS has kindly written that language string using the pluralization functionality. English doesn't need it but other languages do. It's up to the translators to write appropriate translations. IPS has done enough by introducing pluralization even though English doesn't use it there. It's a joke to suggest they should also write the string using non-existent plural distinctions in English.

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10 minutes ago, Meddysong said:

It's not a question of forcing people to use English's grammar. I would complain too if that were true.

Your example is the opposite. Even though the English version doesn't change for number, IPS has kindly written that language string using the pluralization functionality. English doesn't need it but other languages do. It's up to the translators to write appropriate translations. IPS has done enough by introducing pluralization even though English doesn't use it there. It's a joke to suggest they should also write the string using non-existent plural distinctions in English.

Listen, I suggested to change the string so that the translation is easier, Fbarber replied that it would be the same thing, so why don't they put my suggestion into practice? It would be the simplest thing instead of making so many useless controversies. You have to understand that with the various %s & C. variables, sometimes it is not easy to go and understand how to translate if you do not happen to be able to visualize the sentence, remember again that there are over a thousand sentences, but if you encounter problems like this it becomes hard to make a translation. I think the problems would be simplified and not increased, and this applies to all translations and not only Italian ones. I hope I was clear once and for all. Good day.

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36 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

Your problem is that if they tell you the truth, for you it is an insult, you are touchy, the truth hurts, especially when they say it to your face

That makes no sense whatsoever. How have I been reacting touchy? Why would I be hurt about translation strings? That’s just absurd. I am staying calm and factual despite your insults. Because I am an adult. And your position has nothing to do with some kind of “truth”. Nor are your insults “truth”. In fact, it is you who continues to make false claims—for example about us. You keep repeating, we wouldn’t understand your position/request, because we would be focused on an English-only use of the IPS software. It has been pointed out to you multiple times that this is not true. Meddysong uses Esperanto translations. He understands this. Ilya uses Russian translations. He understands this. I am using German translations. I understand this. So stop making false claims! You have been corrected on this. If you keep repeating your false claims about us, you are simply dishonest. 

Quote

I don't change my mind, I wrote how I thought and I remain of my idea …

Exactly. And that is the problem! You ignore the arguments if they don’t support your position. You don’t even address them. I ask you one more time: Do you understand Ilya’s post here

Quote

I think the problems would be simplified and not increased, and this applies to all translations and not only Italian ones.

And you are factually and objectively wrong about that. Why shouldn’t the English version contain all the many options for Russian? They would make your Italian translation and dozens of other translations more complicated. That’s why it’s not done this way. Or is Italian more important than Russian? Think about that. 

Edited by opentype
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3 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

I think the problems would be simplified and not increased, and this applies to all translations and not only Italian ones

No, this applies only to you and your language pack. I created language pack and keep it up to date since 4.0.0 RC. My answer - no, your suggestion does nothing helpful. It just will require extra time from translators to understand more complex string, that may be written much easier.

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19 minutes ago, EnzoC said:

but if you encounter problems like this it becomes hard to make a translation

That's not a good argument, Enzo. I'm a translator too; I've translated the language pack for my own language. If you're going to translate a language, you need to know how pluralization works. The first time it might be difficult but you have to learn it. It's not for IPS to set up the English so that it's convenient for Italians.

Other languages have different forms of plural. Ilya gave you an example earlier. The Slavic languages use one form with 1, another with 2, 3 and 4, then switch to another with 5 to 10, and so on. Should IPS set all those out in English too? Or just the forms which Italian uses?

Edited by Meddysong
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41 minutes ago, opentype said:

That makes no sense whatsoever. How have I been reacting touchy? Why would I be hurt about translation strings? That’s just absurd. I am staying calm and factual despite your insults. Because I am an adult. And your position has nothing to do with some kind of “truth”. Nor are your insults “truth”. In fact, it is you who continues to make false claims—for example about us. You keep repeating, we wouldn’t understand your position/request, because we would be focused on an English-only use of the IPS software. It has been pointed out to you multiple times that this is not true. Meddysong uses Esperanto translations. He understands this. Ilya uses Russian translations. He understands this. I am using German translations. I understand this. So stop making false claims! You have been corrected on this. If you keep repeating your false claims about us, you are simply dishonest. 

Exactly. And that is the problem! You ignore the arguments if they don’t support your position. You don’t even address them. I ask you one more time: Do you understand Ilya’s post here

And you are factually and objectively wrong about that. Why shouldn’t the English version contain all the many options for Russian? They would make your Italian translation and dozens of other translations more complicated. That’s why it’s not done this way. Or is Italian more important than Russian? Think about that.  

I repeat it once again, it is no longer important to import Russian or Italian, it is more important to make the translations as simple as possible for all languages, now you understand, otherwise I will reply to you.

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12 minutes ago, Tom S. said:

It's a shame there isn't a better marketplace solution for translations. The current offering is awful.

There's no money in it, is there? The time investment is so great that I couldn't imagine ever doing it to make money. I've been working on my own language pack since the beta stage of 4.x and it's still not 100% complete (though is enough for my personal needs because I don't care about seeing English in the ACP). I wouldn't upload my own one for sale because if a customer were to point out "it's not 100% done", then I'm effectively committed to 100+ hours of work to make next to nothing.

Edited by Meddysong
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39 minutes ago, Ilya Hoilik said:

No, this applies only to you and your language pack. I created language pack and keep it up to date since 4.0.0 RC. My answer - no, your suggestion does nothing helpful. It just will require extra time from translators to understand more complex string, that may be written much easier. 

But as a complex string, I simply asked to modify this string from {!#[?:%s commented on]}% s to %s {! # [1: commented on] [?: commented on]} in% s.

18 minutes ago, Tom S. said:

It's a shame there isn't a better marketplace solution for translations. The current offering is awful. 

You are definitely right.

10 minutes ago, Meddysong said:

There's no money in it, is there? The time investment is so great that I couldn't imagine ever doing it to make money. I've been working on my own language pack since the beta stage of 4.x and it's still not 100% complete (though is enough for my personal needs because I don't care about seeing English in the ACP). I wouldn't upload my own one for sale because if a customer were to point out "it's not 100% done", then I'm effectively committed to 100+ hours of work to make next to nothing. 

This is just your personal thought and you can't bring it back for others. I started with the translation of version 3 and if you don't care about the translation in ACP to others it might be interesting, in fact I didn't pretend to have the solution only for us Italians, but most possible users and all nationalities. I hope you have acapito too, otherwise I can explain it to you.

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20 minutes ago, Meddysong said:

There's no money in it, is there? 

Yes, that is the main problem. Translations should not be offered in an open market place like they are currently. It needs to be closed off with a set price and approved translators who will be willing to keep translations up to date for a fair return on their investment. 

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