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Subseven

We want our paid subscriptions back...

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1 hour ago, Tom S. said:

Commerce is a highly important and powerful app for many communities, which should generate extra income for IPS. If it was just a basic add-on that generated no extra revenue, then it would be treated a bit like the way profiles are treated - with the occasional minor update.

I happily pay the extra fees so that IPS put in the time and effort to keep improving it. And like @opentype stated, it should be relatively easy to make your money back as the cost is relatively low. If you are making less than $35 over 6 months then what is the point in you offering subscriptions anyway.

A spade is a spade and that too would be BS. I paid for their software that had certain features.

Also, $35 is only for the renewal. It's an $100 app. You tell me...what good would all that other Commerce stuff do on a less than 2000 member localized fishing forum?

Commerce is more about the CART...not the membership subscriptions. Sure it does a lot more...but many don't use or need all those other things it does.

If we paid for it, we should still have it.

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33 minutes ago, Subseven said:

Commerce is more about the CART...

No, it is not. As explained several times now it is about payments, i.e. all ways of monetizing an IPS community. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourself: https://invisioncommunity.com/features
It doesn’t say a word about a cart there, nor on the linked details page. 

44 minutes ago, Subseven said:

what good would all that other Commerce stuff do on a less than 2000 member localized fishing forum?

Hard to say without knowing any details. But if it turns out, it wouldn’t make sense to buy Commerce for them, than it wouldn’t make sense to buy Commerce. That’s it. You can’t twist this example, so it would logically follow “so IPS must include subscriptions at no extra costs in the core”. That just doesn’t follow. If we would take that argument seriously, then the entire IPS suite must be free, because any price will be too high for “someone” and then IPS must react to it. 

By the way: You could make that same argument for Pages for example. That fishing forum might just want to add a few pages with local fishing infos or an about us section. They might not need the powerful Pages database feature or the Pages block feature. So does that mean pages need to become part of the core, so that fishing forum doesn’t need to pay 100 bucks? No! If they want any of the main feature of Pages, they need to buy the app. 

33 minutes ago, Subseven said:

If we paid for it, we should still have it.

Your payments years ago were for whatever was offered years ago. You did not pay for all future implementations of subscriptions for eternity. Nor did IPS guarantee to maintain all features or the way they are offered. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2019 at 3:36 PM, opentype said:

No, it is not. As explained several times now it is about payments, i.e. all ways of monetizing an IPS community. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourself: https://invisioncommunity.com/features
It doesn’t say a word about a cart there, nor on the linked details page. 

Hard to say without knowing any details. But if it turns out, it wouldn’t make sense to buy Commerce for them, than it wouldn’t make sense to buy Commerce. That’s it. You can’t twist this example, so it would logically follow “so IPS must include subscriptions at no extra costs in the core”. That just doesn’t follow. If we would take that argument seriously, then the entire IPS suite must be free, because any price will be too high for “someone” and then IPS must react to it. 

By the way: You could make that same argument for Pages for example. That fishing forum might just want to add a few pages with local fishing infos or an about us section. They might not need the powerful Pages database feature or the Pages block feature. So does that mean pages need to become part of the core, so that fishing forum doesn’t need to pay 100 bucks? No! If they want any of the main feature of Pages, they need to buy the app. 

Your payments years ago were for whatever was offered years ago. You did not pay for all future implementations of subscriptions for eternity. Nor did IPS guarantee to maintain all features or the way they are offered. 

BS. Cart/Store...same idea.

Quote

Sell physical and digital products to your members via our built-in store.

 

Seriously man...They should make the part we always had and paid for concerning paid memberships available again by unlocking just that part of their Commerce app.

Edited by Subseven

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7 minutes ago, Subseven said:

They should make the part we always had and paid for concerning paid memberships available again by unlocking just that part of their Commerce app.

On 3/14/2018 at 3:15 PM, Subseven said:

It was a big part of my forums. For a long time now, you want us to pay just to have that...and 4.3 isn't looking any better in that aspect. I don't want to sell all linds of things.

Subscriptions was taken away from us a while back and we should not have to buy something we don't need like Commerce to have it. VB and Xenforo both include subscriptions with the base forum script. Alwas did. Just like IPB used to.

And I want the whole IPS package for 200$ because the current rates are too high but I guess they won't do this. 

30 rock crying GIF

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1 hour ago, Subseven said:

I paid for their software that had certain features.

The features only serve to convince you to buy a license. If the feature list changes and you no longer feel it is worth the license then you stop paying for the license (renewals) and stick with the old version or go somewhere else.

I can appreciate your frustration of a feature you found useful being discontinued. But your claim that you have the right to this feature is just wrong.

And I still can't get my head around the fact that you can't make this financially viable. All you need is the initial investment of $100 and then $6 a month in sales to cover the cost of renewals. Meaning even if you only managed $20 a month you would fairly quickly make your $100 back.

Why are you even concerned about subscriptions if you can't make more than $6 a month...

colin farrell idk GIF

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On 3/8/2019 at 12:08 AM, Subseven said:

IPB always used to have paid subscriptions built in. Then one day, everything changed and we had to buy Nexus/Commerce to have paid subscriptions. I mean come on. We had it for years. I don't want a store, so why have all that commerce stuff? All other reputable forum scripts out there have paid subscription setups included. Our IPB setups should too...without paying for Commerce.

If there is something I haven't heard about, let me know.

Subscription was once free as ips let third party dev take control of the app as was on its own but then ips felt was time return the subscription with nexus not sure why.

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3 minutes ago, Pete T said:

ips felt was time return the subscription with nexus not sure why.

As I recall, subscriptions passed through a number of developers and support became problematic. (I recall the support burden being significant.)

IPS pulling it back into Commerce solved a lot of problems.

1 hour ago, Subseven said:

They should make the part we always had and paid for concerning paid memberships available again by unlocking just that part of their Commerce app.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but that's just not the way it works. I paid for a Windows XP licence, but it is no longer available. I paid for a forum software called MegaBBS, but it is no longer available. I paid for 32-bit compatible software that now only supports 64-bit.

Things change, the offer changes, and we as customers must choose to accept them or look for alternatives.

I can't see IPS splitting Subscriptions out from Commerce given that the payment gateways are managed through Commerce.

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4 minutes ago, The Heff said:

As I recall, subscriptions passed through a number of developers and support became problematic. (I recall the support burden being significant.)

IPS pulling it back into Commerce solved a lot of problems.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but that's just not the way it works. I paid for a Windows XP licence, but it is no longer available. I paid for a forum software called MegaBBS, but it is no longer available. I paid for 32-bit compatible software that now only supports 64-bit.

Things change, the offer changes, and we as customers must choose to accept them or look for alternatives.

I can't see IPS splitting Subscriptions out from Commerce given that the payment gateways are managed through Commerce.

Yes subscription was passed between developers but this was sole application vs having into nexus.

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42 minutes ago, Subseven said:

BS. Cart/Store...same idea.

What is BS? Once again you don’t even properly address what I’m saying. I explained 3 times that Commerce is about payments, and I can demonstrate that to be true. For example: Commerce is used for payments of paid clubs — no store/cart involved. Commerce is used for payment of file downloads – no store/cart involved. Just to name two examples. It’s a general payment solution for the entire suite. So my claim (it is about payments) is correct, yours (it is about a cart) is not. Nothing I said is BS. You just don’t like it, because I (or multiple people now actually) point out the flaws in your arguments. Sure, you can say you are going to ignore it all now — or there is always the option of having an honest and open discussion, where the arguments are actually considered and not just judged and ignored based on whether they agree with your “Subscriptions must be available at no extra costs” conclusion. 

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@Subseven, you mentioned that other softwares offer this service with their forum. I am curious cuz I really do not know the answer, do they also offer a commerce solution similar to IPS Commerce? If they don't then this could be the reason it is in their forum software and I would be inclined to think if they ever do offer an app for commerce you would see them also remove it from their forum software. 

I can see the frustration on your end but it wouldn't be business smart for IPS to offer payment solutions in 2 different apps. Having a dedicated app such as commerce makes it easy to know which app does what.

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Posted (edited)

@JustHatched. Yeah....but maybe they could unlock that part of Commerce and keep the rest greyed out. That would allow those who don't have Commerce to see all of the features and settings that they would get if they paid and unlocked the rest.

When you have lifetime and 1-Year paid subscriptions for years and get some members on both...then they take it away, it sucks. Especially when members have to ask about how they get that Premium Membership and then you have to jump through hoops to set them up.

So yeah....Invision made a headache for some license holders. It's supposed to be a community script...not a store script...

No matter what anybody says...it is and always will be BS....rant over.

Edited by Subseven

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1 hour ago, Subseven said:

@JustHatched. Yeah....but maybe they could unlock that part of Commerce and keep the rest greyed out. That would allow those who don't have Commerce to see all of the features and settings that they would get if they paid and unlocked the rest.

When you have lifetime and 1-Year paid subscriptions for years and get some members on both...then they take it away, it sucks. Especially when members have to ask about how they get that Premium Membership and then you have to jump through hoops to set them up.

So yeah....Invision made a headache for some license holders. It's supposed to be a community script...not a store script...

No matter what anybody says...it is and always will be BS....rant over.

Commerce unlocks multiple functionality across the suite.  It allows paid files in Downloads.  It allows paid access in Clubs.  It allows paid subscriptions, products, support for the suite.  

If anything, having a dedicated app for commerce is more suitable for the variety of Invision Communities that need to mix and match functionality. What you want only works for legacy forum software.  

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Once upon a time, many many moons ago, before we had any sort of eCommerce platform offering, we supported very basic subscriptions without purchasing a separate application.

When we developed a full-fledged eCommerce solution, naturally this functionality was pulled in under its umbrella for many reasons.

This is extremely unlikely to be changed at any time in the near future I'm afraid. If you wish to sell products or subscriptions, you will need to purchase Commerce (or develop your own custom solution/use a solution developed by someone else in the marketplace). We are not likely to pull subscriptions out of Commerce and put this into the core.

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Posted (edited)

The commerce in terms of donations perspective is broken. On our website - I want to sell subscriptions + donations. So rather then using one product - I am using 2 i.e. Store and Donations. The problem is Donation add-on doesn't support subscription and subscription is must because people forget to donate. Also donation add-on has PayPal and not stripe, so no apple pay, Venmo, Google pay, etc. Most of the users are on mobile now a days so mobile payment support is must for us. Also commerce product doesn't have nice Donation goals like Donation add-on. 

Now if someone ask to convert their donation to subscription - can't do it because different add-ons. I just wish either Donation add-ons gets improved or Store/Nexus gets improved. I just want to have 1 application and not 2 applications which does 50 and 50 thing. This is the problem on many gaming websites I noticed, so far. 

Many people use subscription in terms of gathering donation to support website and not to sell something. So i can see why people are asking for subscription has in-build forum feature as Xenforo and other sites do same because paying 100$ for just providing subscriptions doesn't justify the cost of it. Then you add the renewal cost each time. 

More or less even Commerce doesn't help me sell gaming servers either and I still have to stick with whmcs. I wish that would be improved in commerce but i have given up hopes on it. 

 

 

Edited by AlexJ

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Posted (edited)
On 3/8/2019 at 6:15 PM, Jim M said:

Not to get into our policy but just to clarify our current policy for those who may not be aware:

  • We can remove an application from your license that you no longer wish to have on the license.
  • You must uninstall said application from your community.
  • If you wish to use said application at a later date, you will need to purchase at the full price (not the renewal price).

If you wish to perform this or have any questions, please submit a ticket 🙂  

I understand that you must have a policy, but it's hard to comprehend the reason for this (other than "greed", which, I have to say, does come to mind).

I mean, a new license for pages, commerce, downloads and gallery costs 350$. They need to be renewed every 6 months. But if I only want to renew the forum software after 6 months, I can't unless I uninstall those apps, which means that I'll need to pay another 350$ in the future if I install them again. I agree that the argument that new versions of the forum software are usually not compatible with older versions of the apps, BUT if that was really your main concern, you'd give people the option to uninstall those apps (so that the forum software would work fine) and KEEP their licenses in case they wanted to reinstall those apps in the future by simply renewing a license which they purchased legally. A "win win" situation for most companies, but apparently not for invision. 

To be honest, I have serious doubts about this whole policy even being legal (i.e. forcing users to buy a license several times to use the same product ). At the very least, I, and many other users, find it abusive. 

Edited by Telemacus2
grammar errors

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I too recall when it  was way way way back part of the actual 'board' as it was then in the 2x series. Then if memory serves around the early part of the 3.x series (possibly the first 3.1 version) it was removed as a 'stand alone' application and I think as a community project.

There certainly was a third party version of it for the very last 3x versions although I am not immediately sure if with the exception of the Donations file listed above if there was a 4x 'stand alone' subscriptions package.

 

Although not completely related to the questions of concern I wanted to mention mainly as a random fact: It is actually quite possible to get from a 2x 'board' with subscriptions to the IPS4 suite with them still there although the actual procedure to do this (although quite easy) does require a couple more steps than a standard 2x to IPS4 upgrade given that a certain specific version range of the IPB3x series needs to be used to facilitate this.

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53 minutes ago, Telemacus2 said:

To be honest, I have serious doubts about this whole policy even being legal (i.e. forcing users to buy a license to use the same product several times).

Are you saying that charging people for a renewal of a license is illegal? Or have I misunderstood?

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1 minute ago, Tom S. said:

Are you saying that charging people for a renewal of a license is illegal? Or have I misunderstood?

Renewing a license is perfectly normal and legal. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about forcing a user to buy the same license to use the same piece of software, not renewing it. 

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On 3/9/2019 at 5:17 PM, opentype said:

What is BS? Once again you don’t even properly address what I’m saying. I explained 3 times that Commerce is about payments, and I can demonstrate that to be true. For example: Commerce is used for payments of paid clubs — no store/cart involved. Commerce is used for payment of file downloads – no store/cart involved. Just to name two examples. It’s a general payment solution for the entire suite. So my claim (it is about payments) is correct, yours (it is about a cart) is not. Nothing I said is BS. You just don’t like it, because I (or multiple people now actually) point out the flaws in your arguments. Sure, you can say you are going to ignore it all now — or there is always the option of having an honest and open discussion, where the arguments are actually considered and not just judged and ignored based on whether they agree with your “Subscriptions must be available at no extra costs” conclusion. 

Not judging. Just frustrated about not having it like we use to. I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me and dismissing your argument. If there were no products, there would be no payments. People are buying and that's fine. I'm not here to argue or spell things out. In the past, I've always respected what you do here...but on this one...we have to agree to disagree. One thing you are right about though is that it isn't likely we'll ever get it back. Greed prevails.

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I know Subscriptions is only a small part of Commerce, but many of us only use Commerce for the subscription functionality. I wish that IPB would put more resources towards making the subscription functionality better, there's been loads of suggestions in the forums which haven't been implemented.

And now existing functionality has been removed from the subscriptions, you can no longer set free subscriptions. Which was used as the only workaround to have a tiered membership option, with free and levels of paid. Of course you can do this with Commerce and a store, but the store functioality and UX is shocking if you're just selling subscriptions with different membership permissions.

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19 hours ago, asigno said:

I know Subscriptions is only a small part of Commerce, but many of us only use Commerce for the subscription functionality. I wish that IPB would put more resources towards making the subscription functionality better, there's been loads of suggestions in the forums which haven't been implemented.

And now existing functionality has been removed from the subscriptions, you can no longer set free subscriptions. Which was used as the only workaround to have a tiered membership option, with free and levels of paid. Of course you can do this with Commerce and a store, but the store functioality and UX is shocking if you're just selling subscriptions with different membership permissions.

Do you (or anyone) know of a live site with membership options so I can see how they work? Thanks.

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4 hours ago, mudcrutch said:

Do you (or anyone) know of a live site with membership options so I can see how they work? Thanks.

https://yamahaclub.com/forums/subscriptions/?register=1

I used to have three tiers, $0, $5 and $10. You can no longer have free subscriptions so it was automatically removed on upgrading to 4.4 hence there's now just the two options.

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, asigno said:

https://yamahaclub.com/forums/subscriptions/?register=1

I used to have three tiers, $0, $5 and $10. You can no longer have free subscriptions so it was automatically removed on upgrading to 4.4 hence there's now just the two options.

 

That's gotta deter some registrations. I built Grizzly Central years ago on VB and it's still running on VB 3.8.8! Easier platforms to work with back from both IPB and VB. Sometimes I wonder if "upgrades" are even worth it.

Edited by Subseven

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