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It’s Impossible to live with this!


Chris Bell
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On 6/13/2016 at 3:36 PM, CheersnGears said:

Keep in mind that not everyone uses their install the same way you do.  They might be just PMs to you, but they could easily be full on emails to other people. 

which brings this right back to my opening statement,
be it PM to one or full blown emails (in my case as you can see pretty lengthy conversations); it all still happens in this tiny space on the left,

inbox.jpg

Edited by Chris Bell
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Oh man, I'm not crazy about this.  It will certainly take some getting used to.  I deal with a heavy amount of email every day, and my desktop app is configured with the list of messages at the top and the selected message at the bottom.  The 3.4.x messenger layout lets me see considerably more messages at one time, and parse through the ones I want to look at more quickly.  I also get a ton of PMs on my forum, and the same applies.  Having to scroll through a small window on the left looks like it's going to be rather cumbersome.  Not only that, but the window seems to fixed at some arbitrary size, wasting even more space.

There is also more information "hidden" by default, which is poor UI design in my opinion.  The mailboxes are now hidden behind a drop-down menu.  Viewing new or all conversations is now hidden behind a mysterious icon (so people may not even know they can choose between the two). I can't see how many messages are in my mailbox (which is useful information--subscribers on my forum get a larger mailbox, so these numbers have meaning), and I don't see any way to edit the name of a folder you've created.  It is aggravating and disappointing to see changes like this.

The big white space when you enter the page just screams "What an inefficient use of space" for that initial view.  It would be great if the forum remembered the last conversation you were looking at and had that open (to the correct page) by default.  This would help give messenger more of a mail client feel, if that's what you are trying to mimic.  At the very least, some text in this empty space, such as, "Select a conversation to view".  or "Your mailbox is empty" if you don't have any conversations (something I will never see!) would be helpful.

Also, the scrolling in the messages page on the left is very annoying (in Chrome, have not tried Firefox or Safari yet).  When you scroll and get to the bottom of the first "page" of results, it then starts scrolling the entire browser window.  This seems to happen at the bottom of each page.  It also scrolls the page when there are no more results, but your mouse cursor is still over the messages pane window.  Please change this so vertical scrolling only occurs in this "window" while your mouse is over it.  

Thank you for listening. 

Edited by AtariAge
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23 minutes ago, AtariAge said:

The big white space when you enter the page just screams "What an inefficient use of space" for that initial view.  It would be great if the forum remembered the last conversation you were looking at and had that open (to the correct page) by default.  This would help give messenger more of a mail client feel, if that's what you are trying to mimic.  At the very least, some text in this empty space, such as, "Select a conversation to view".  or "Your mailbox is empty" if you don't have any conversations (something I will never see!) would be helpful.

I'll comment on this one... It currently says ' No Message Selected ' with a big e-mail icon above it... You can change what text is shown here by editing that language bit.  

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6 minutes ago, Aiwa said:

I'll comment on this one... It currently says ' No Message Selected ' with a big e-mail icon above it... You can change what text is shown here by editing that language bit.  

You're right, of course, but it's extremely light in the above screenshot and I didn't even see it until you pointed it out. 

 ..Al

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im glad im not the only one find this tidbit annoying,
bringing this issue up without more production customers backing this ridiculousness up is not easy,

its not easy fencing off developers who's interest is in new functions and advanced integration (i don't blame them!);
all the while a true and tested day to day usage being ignored for the favor of gadgetry;
combined with mobile device layout thats forced in a desktop environment!?

this is what i meant earlier Lindy,
we non web dev don't have the time to spend here and campaign everyday on whats not working for us; we have our own jobs to maintain and worry about,
i cant afford to lobby IPS to remain comfortable as it used to be while apposing lobbyists are standing by to test anything new regardless if its useful,
the focus seem to be on... can we do this technically advanced element; our competitors don't have it yet...  not about is it useful do we need it,

i am seriously feed up with this ridicules mobile trending in a full desktop application, it is now in IPS4, in Win10 and partially Win8,
this is on top of the new un intuitive view new posts results which i personally been complaining from day one,

yes its pretty and look very cool, but... useless!
when i search for something i could care less about pretty lines and symbols or theme layout; bottom line i want to see/find what im looking for!
in "view new posts" where i used to literally live; i lost basic stats like view count, lost last commenters name, image, and such basic ques,
only to be replaced with... nothing! so we get less info now! but... its pretty and stylish ^_^

since i cant live where i used too (view new posts page), no more keeping track of new posts like i used too!
top it off with this email thing that is just useless and driving my crazy everyday when i have to use it; on top!
yes i am thankful that i am able to still get a view on my board when im sitting at the airport;
but thats where it ends! when im back in the office i don't like it again!

i trust IPS; but im at a point that i have no patience to deal with this; i am seriously considering alternatives!
sure i can ask one of the IPS professional we work with to fix this on our site; but i also use IPS in other places and its the same there!
so the solution for my situation as advised few posts earlier is a band-aid for a broken leg imo,

at this point for me IPS4 simply translate prettier with less productivity when compared to v3!
this is tough love guys, unless something is done to restore productivity to desktops IPS4 is a total miss for me,

just as FYI... phones are shrinking back now, from here on its how small can your phone get!
if anything you should have kept desktop integration as is and offer a separate mobile module,
 

Edited by Chris Bell
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I know I am complaining about these two functions since day one; all the while IPS4 is much more than these two elements,


I ask you… what good  a super car if it can only drive in first gear? unless an array of conditions come together in a specific scenario,
thats how IPS4 feels like to me atm,

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  • Management

It's not about being a web dev, it's about modern expectations. The messenger is modeled after other... Messengers, similar to Facebook. We're not aiming to be consistent with forums from 10yrs ago (including our own software from 10yrs ago), we're trying to create a (relatively) consistent experience between what users are used to today. After all, it's not you keeping your community alive, it's your users. It's the same argument we face with other facets of the software like BBCode. There's still some clinging on to dear life with [ b ] tags (which still work in IPS4, just to be clear!) But the billions of other people on the Internet who use e-mail clients, word processors, blogs and literally everything but forums from 2003 use command/control b or clicking the editor buttons. The same principle applies to the stream, which we've found most people (once they give it a chance) prefer to the old VNC. 

In short - there's really nothing to do here. What you're describing is largely preference based and, in my opinion, the minority in similar modern applications. Even e-mail clients default to the left sidebar with a preview pane on the right. So, there's not going to be any big changes in that regard, but with that said, please review the release notes. There are a few PM improvements in 4.1.13. I'll also check into the UI aspect of making that sidebar relative vs fixed. Again though, I think you and Atari are going to be in the overwhelming minority when it comes to wanting a big wasteful list on top with the preview on bottom. 

Regarding the mobile trend - I'm sorry, my friend, it's here to stay. There are more mobile users than desktop these days. Personally, I do as little as possible via mobile; I just function better on a desktop and you wouldn't know it by my posts and defense of modern technology, but I often prefer old school as well. Unfortunately, we don't build the software for the vocal minority -- including myself. :) 

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@Lindy
you are bigger than life Lindy! :wub:
guilty as charged; im old school who dread changes,

i don't think there should be priority preference mobile vs desktop users; today these are equally used and important,
though one is still vastly more productive over the other imo, it has no bearing over a true and tested workflow from 10 years ago,
that part didn't change, workflow is very much the same; we now carry it out over wider range of media, but its still the same,

the wheel didn't change from the day it was invented to today; it is the same basic round shape in different sizes,
yet you don't see buses out there driving on Rollerblade wheels!

don't get me wrong... i am all for optimizing and maximizing work area and workflow,
current inbox implementation comes out extremely restrictive and less productive compared to v3, (or any inbox imo)

i like to view emails or PM's in full screen (considering a conventional single 16:9 view ratio);
even in the old v3 view style i always right click and open in a new window/tab, simple!

to cram it all on one screen without the option of full inbox view or search is terrible practice in desktop//workstation/server environments,

a quick comment (i hope its quick ^_^) regarding BB code, it was a simple and logical way for none technical users to quickly edit, change their posts,
i find it pretty cumbersome the need to start editing my own posts in full html, let alone enabling advance editing for the users,
so many times i just want to copy and paste, change few words and post; instead today i have to copy the entire page code, move it to advance text editor,
edit my code (which in some cases comes out a single line of code) externally,
im not pulling rank with what im about to say... but man Ive been doing this professionally for over 20 years now! this is ridicules, why?
im very comfortable in the right environment editing code and far more; this go around to make a small change in post is ridicules today!
take a very simple live example; the bottom of our front page has a section with our friends logo and link to their sites,
i recently needed to add a single logo and link, not a complicated task, but i had to as i mentioned above do manual editing on the fly;
in full editor to be able to edit every possible HTML tag there is; in this case there was some inherited style attribute that didn't match the rest of the area (some gray border),
please don't take this as being un appreciative; i like the extended editing; imo it has a place and time! on the back end i expect that sort of base code access,
but not on the front end, that task with BB code would have taken me seconds! copying a post from one site to another... again the same issues with HTML tags,
not always you have HTML edit option on other sites to go advance HTML editing to fix layout, ...all this slows productivity!
beside who wants to edit HTML code on a regular basis; that's not what i do, i don't recall all tags off the top of my head always,
i don't want to look for open and closed tags on a full page when every line is a new paragraph; this is just too cumbersome,

a BB code is something even a novice user could easily jump into the logic of; HTML makes it so not,
take a shoe store owner who wanted to run his own forum, a 50 year old guy now need to learn HTML to do a simple edit!?

 

reading between the lines... im saddened to find out that no one there at IPS headquarters defends the desktop experience as much as advocating mobile :rofl:

Edited by Chris Bell
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5 minutes ago, Chris Bell said:

i don't think there should be priority preference mobile vs desktop users; today these are equally used and important,

reading between the lines... im saddened to find out that no one there at IPS headquarters defends the desktop experience as much as advocating mobile :rofl:

That’s a straw man argument. It’s a RESPONSIVE web software now, which means the view adopts to whatever screen size is available and depending on that columns stretch or are shown beside or below each other. You are trying to paint the picture that the layout is specifically made for mobile devices and a good desktop use ignored. That’s just not true. What you don’t like about the inbox is the result of a normal design decision, not just a result of a mobile first (let alone “mobile only”) approach. And this can be proven by showing exactly this layout in desktop-only (messaging) apps. 

And in general: I like that you actually admit that you one “who dreads changes” and this is also obvious to me from reading other topics you opened in the past. However, even though you admit that, you still ignore it at the same time. You don’t argue that you dislike certain changes, because you have problems with changes, but you go on and on about why you pleas for keeping the old ways of doing it are the one and only right thing to do and the new ways are “impossible to live with”, as you claimed here. Notice the problem?

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@opentype
Thank you for taking the time reading my posts :thumbsup:

the responsive part in this case (speaking of inbox in particular) only effects the right side pane!
it has no effect on the left pane we use before a message is actually loaded!
so in effect 85% of the screen is left empty if you are not previewing a specific message and just going through your messages themselves,

while i don't see an issue with having a different point of view or backing my opinion up with what i think is a logical and practical day to day examples,
i bring up (in product feedback section) what i feel is hindering day to day admin and end user productivity; from my direct end user experience,
its not that im stuck in my ways blindly for the sake of being different, in this case the good old joke healthy logic simply applies!

Child: Dad, why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west?
Dad: Have you checked it yourself?
Child: Yes.
Dad: Does it work?
Child: Yes.
Dad: Every day?
Child: Yes.
Dad: Then don't touch it, please.

Edited by Chris Bell
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To further add to the point.

I'm working on a migration with a 6million+ post board and several thousand active members, its not complete yet and stuff like this takes a lot of time and effort but everyone who has seen one of the many test migrations, has really liked the inbox system. I can see what @Lindy is talking about when users who are used to word processors, clients, and more feel less disconnected by coming on the board. Granted, it may also be related to the fact that my site is within the writing niche, but that is another thread in of it self. Times are moving forward and I'm tired of my board software regardless of which one I use feeling like it is from 10 years ago.

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8 hours ago, Lindy said:

 I'll also check into the UI aspect of making that sidebar relative vs fixed. Again though, I think you and Atari are going to be in the overwhelming minority when it comes to wanting a big wasteful list on top with the preview on bottom.

:lol:
my preference would be half vertical; responsive that can be further adjusted to select which side should have more real-estate,
(especially with groups that are now a welcome option! we'll need rules for that :rofl:)

Edited by Chris Bell
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I much prefer the new style messenger.  My only slight gripe is that the messages folder only ever shows 5 or 6 messages even when there is plenty of bank length in the sidebar.  If you have a 100+ messages it is bit fiddly to try and select and manage them when you can only see so few.

I think the max-height value on #elMessageList could do with being a bit larger in desktop view, I just tried upping mine to 1000px which is better fro me, but better still would be a dedicated mailbox view.

Edited by Edward Shephard
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1 hour ago, Chris Bell said:

@Aiwa
i don think that is the best solution;
we still interact with IPS in many other places that are out of our control,
take this site for example; my inbox here is still the same!

Overall, where do you use your inbox the most?  Your site, or this site?  

The goal of any mod would be to improve the perceived experience on your community for your members.  

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The most important thing for me here, as far as realistic expectations that I hope you guys fix, are: 

  1. Allow the message pane on the left to expand vertically to take advantage of those using taller and/or high resolutions displays.  This would alleviate one of my complaints about this view, just doesn't show nearly as much information as the old style did (and it's harder to parse, in my opinion). 
  2. Fix the scrolling issue so the whole page doesn't move while you're scrolling through the messages pane. 
  3. Display or at least expose as variables the current number of messages in the mailbox and the total allowed (if not already exposed). 
  4. Provide some mechanism to rename folders you create. 

I will probably modify the message pane view to remove the "preview" text to reduce the height of each row, and also unwrap the date.  Also, just a general comment, Invision really likes pop-up menus.  There are so many on this page!

Also, the upcoming change to allow me to filter based on recipient/sender is very welcome.  THANK YOU!  Has the speed of the search in the Messenger been improved? I currently have 28,000 private conversations on my forum, and searching is agonizingly slow.  Before anyone asks, I often need to reference old conversations, so deleting them is not an option. 

You guys are going to love me when I start seriously playing with 4.x. :D

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  • Management

"Efficient" is subjective. You find the "classic" interface more efficient because you're used to it and you've adopted other applications to use a similar style... So, for you, it is more efficient. For others, who use the left/right approach in everything else, it's not more efficient to have something so substantially different. 

 

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