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Community members don't like all the IPB changes.


vpsBoard
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Surely I'm not the only one experiencing this. The new post editor, no one likes. We all want the old BB code editor back and there is no fix or workaround. Members who had bookmarked URLs for new content complained because the URL structure in updates have changed, and IPB didn't build in redirects to prevent error pages from being shown when the old pages were accessed instead of the new "discover" pages. As an admin I've seen more complaints than I ever have in 4.X.X since upgrading from 3.4.X

Am I the only one?

It's really done more damage to my community than it has helped it. Several of my top posters hate the updates so much that they've told me they've just decided to stop posting.

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1 hour ago, vpsBoard said:

 As an admin I've seen more complaints than I ever have in 4.X.X since upgrading from 3.4.X

LOL I actually think I saw more complaints for the upgrade from the 2.x series to 3.x series. The 3.x series to 4.x series is quite amazing. The improvements that have happened are amazing and they keep going and getting better.

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1 hour ago, Evil Edwina said:

BBCode is a fossil, it's old and it needed to be replaced. I wouldn't want to go back to it. The editor is not perfect, but it's getting better.

That's like saying HTML is a fossil.

It would still be nice for those of us who wish to utilize the "old" editor, the one that wasn't buggy, had proper post previews, a proper 'view source' (of BB code) and that is the similar to most other forum platforms (besides the ones that use markup like vanilla).

The editor as it is now is unusable for some members. It isn't tested properly across different platforms that exist. I still have people complaining that some of the icons appear differently for them than for other users, nothing I can replicate as it works for me. I still can't post URLs on my forum or this forum without the text I type after it automatically linking to the URL I pasted (I posted a bug report, nothing came of it). https://community.invisionpower.com/4bugtrack/active-reports/41x-pasting-url-results-in-text-typed-after-url-to-link-and-underline-r8720/

It's a trainwreck, it really is. Why is "Insert Other Media" an option below the editor? Why was there a need to re-arrange the editor to remove popular options such as embedding images? Why are some visitors seeing the "Link" icon as a "gear" in their toolbar and the "smiley" icon is the icon for submitting "code". (This I can't replicate because it works fine for me, but not fine for others)

Things I had to manually fix myself after upgrading:

  • Random redirects added from the change of URL structures
  • Had to modify code so the search function worked properly and would return results for phrases that contained words of 3 letters or less. It worked fine before the 4.1.X upgrade, but as per usual random things break in every upgrade.
  • Had to modify the way "Unread Content" linked to the content. Clicking on the title of the unread content took you to the first post of that thread... instead to the first UNREAD post of that thread. Users aren't going to click all the small links under the post synopsis to see which one takes them to where they expect to go. The title of the thread should link to the first unread comment just like it always has before the 4.1.X series.
  • Random template updates because of surprise template changes.

 

It's not all horrible. I do like the new Discover system despite the fact the thread titles shouldn't link to the first post of the thread and instead should link to the first unread post of that thread. I do like the navbar editor as well (Even though comically there is no option to set custom links to open in a new tab/window with target="_blank"). The quotes system is a big improvement over 4.x.x but I still prefer/liked the quote system in <3.4.X better.

 

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25 minutes ago, vpsBoard said:

That's like saying HTML is a fossil.

Don't be ridiculous, HTML is a programming language for developing/designing web pages. BBCode is not. BBCode is a relic of editors used by end-users for posting online content, due to the lack of WYSIWYG editor functionality. WYSIWYG, when it works properly, does not require the use of BBCode.

I've got one forum on 4.1.X already and another in testing. Thus far the only issues found are ones we already know about, some parsing of mentions, images, and YouTube videos being a bit on the slow side, but nothing game-breaking. In fact, not one person on my current 3.4.8 actually uses BBCode. Most of them did not even know they could toggle it to BBCode at all.

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  • Management

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your feedback. 

The concern about antiquated technologies like the bbcode editor notwithstanding, much of your concern could be due to customizations to your community. This includes your linking concerns, the 'link' instead of gear icon, etc. It may be best to submit a ticket so we can investigate, determine if these concerns exist on the default theme with plugins disabled, etc. As noted in your bug report, nobody can seem to reproduce your link issue, even using your own community. Naturally, it's difficult to address something we can't reproduce. 

Please understand, the base of IPB 3 was essentially in use for over a decade. With IPS4 being a new ground-up platform, we had the opportunity to shed what most consider technological baggage carried over from previous trends and technologies while leveraging some of the latest technologies. It's hard to move forward while keeping everything the same. Obviously URL structures will change (note: you can redirect things like the old VNC via htaccess if you are so inclined), things that are virtually obsolete like bbcode editors (which is not native to CKEditor) will be shed, templates will change and well, things just change and adapt. There have been numerous examples of clients on this community who were vehemently opposed to changes in IPS4 that later returned and said they actually prefer it now. Change is scary, but the challenge is separating out actual issues and just general opposition because it's different. 

In short, I would encourage you to step back, isolate your core feedback like "why is the image URL below the editor" from "it's a trainwreck" as well as narrow down what's unique to your installation and what could potentially be an issue in the software itself. You have a pretty full glass of thoughts and frustration; it may be helpful to divide that up so we can tackle it all appropriately. 

Thank you again for the feedback and hopefully we can help improve your experience. 

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It would be nice if the 'insert other media' was an icon at the top of the editor. On my community I've disallowed uploading attachments, so all users can even use the 'insert other media' for is to embed images; but they still have to go through two clicks to get to that and it's at the bottom of the editor where they likely aren't even looking.

Would also be nice if it was a bit more detailed about the features. Unless I make a post on my forum and HOPE people would actually find their way to it and then PRAY they actually take the time out to read it; most users will not know they can click on the image to resize it or use ctrl+right click for various options to other things, etc... I mean I'm still learning new things about the editor half a month later because there is absolutely nothing there to let you know it even exists.

Other then that, most of the stuff basically falls under that you can't please 100% of people and the developers have to go with what they believe is the best alternative. Also no matter what they do, it seems human nature that most people do not like change and will complain rather than adapt. Years from now the same people will be complaining that they love IPS4 but hate the new features of IPS5.

Edited by Koby
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9 minutes ago, Koby said:

It would be nice if the 'insert other media' was an icon at the top of the editor. On my community I've disallowed uploading attachments, so all users can even use the 'insert other media' for is to embed images; but they still have to go through two clicks to get to that and it's at the bottom of the editor where they likely aren't even looking.

I don't like this either, in fact the language is confusing. "Insert other media" sounds like inserting other file types. Not attachments you've used, or images from URLs.

Both of these are hidden and most users end up re-uploading attachments and have no idea of the image from URL.

Edited by chilihead
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Lacking timely, detailed, comprehensive release-aware documentation,  I would love to see an IPS resource feed of bite-sized, cut-n-pastable "tips and tricks" that could be reused by forum administrators everywhere to help their community members.  

  • how to insert an image from a URL into your post!
  • how to upload and insert an image into your post!
  • how to resize, align, and put a border on an image in your post!
  • how to create some hidden text in your post. Spoiler!
  • quote this! quote the quote! oops, remove that quote!
  • can't upload? your image is too big? how to see what your attachment limits are. how to free up space.
  • etc. 

The key is bite-sized and super-simple. 

All could be done in default template with as much chrome cropped out as possible to maximize reusability across various themes. Tagged by applicable versions. Being bite-sized and cut-n-pastable rather than a comprehensive help file it doesn't matter that people have different settings and options. Admins can pick and choose the pain points they see occurring in their own communities or topics that match their configurations, ignoring others. Even where heavy customizations have taken place a lot of the content could be adapted by admins to their own configurations.

I learn stuff just by idly reading topics here and think I should probably create a tutorial, but every time I create a detailed tutorial on one of my little forums  it seems it's out of date within months. 

It would be great to have a steady feed of tiny tips and tricks. 

 

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On November 14, 2015 at 5:57:26 PM, vpsBoard said:

Members who had bookmarked URLs for new content complained because the URL structure in updates have changed, and IPB didn't build in redirects to prevent error pages from being shown when the old pages were accessed instead of the new "discover" pages.

Writing those for yourself takes, what, two minutes?

20 hours ago, vpsBoard said:

That's like saying HTML is a fossil.

Addressed above, but no… not at all. Not comparable.

20 hours ago, vpsBoard said:

It would still be nice for those of us who wish to utilize the "old" editor, the one that wasn't buggy, had proper post previews, a proper 'view source' (of BB code) and that is the similar to most other forum platforms (besides the ones that use markup like vanilla).

Give it time.

20 hours ago, vpsBoard said:

I still have people complaining that some of the icons appear differently for them than for other users, nothing I can replicate as it works for me.

Sounds like a basic caching issue. Your members need to empty their caches. We had the same thing… and eventually, it goes away. Or goes away more rapidly if they empty their caches.

20 hours ago, vpsBoard said:
  • Had to modify the way "Unread Content" linked to the content. Clicking on the title of the unread content took you to the first post of that thread... instead to the first UNREAD post of that thread. Users aren't going to click all the small links under the post synopsis to see which one takes them to where they expect to go. The title of the thread should link to the first unread comment just like it always has before the 4.1.X series.

It's not all horrible. I do like the new Discover system despite the fact the thread titles shouldn't link to the first post of the thread and instead should link to the first unread post of that thread. I do like the navbar editor as well (Even though comically there is no option to set custom links to open in a new tab/window with target="_blank"). The quotes system is a big improvement over 4.x.x but I still prefer/liked the quote system in <3.4.X better.

That's how that works. It makes sense to me. The title of the thread should link to the post which set the title of the thread: the first one.

The star or circle take you to the first unread post.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Give it time.

The issue is not particularly HIM giving it time.. but his USERS.  If your users find posting difficult - guess what.  Most of them won't post.  They will then go to other similar genre sites that the posting is more user friendly.  And it IS a valid issue.  You don't make a drastic paradigm shift on something as core as the editor until you have pretty much worked the "bugs" and problems out of the interface.  You should NOT be forcing your customers (in the case of IPS, the forum admins, and in the case of the forum admins - the users) to test it out for you.

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19 hours ago, Koby said:

It would be nice if the 'insert other media' was an icon at the top of the editor. On my community I've disallowed uploading attachments, so all users can even use the 'insert other media' for is to embed images; but they still have to go through two clicks to get to that and it's at the bottom of the editor where they likely aren't even looking.

Perhaps mine is broken but if I post an image as a URL:
 

http://i58.tinypic.com/m7tbus.jpg

Then hit enter, a few moments later the thing is auto translated into the "other media" no clicks or special requirements required. This happens for Youtube links and the like.

m7tbus.jpg

 

Edited by Morrigan
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1 hour ago, Tracy Perry said:

The issue is not particularly HIM giving it time.. but his USERS.  If your users find posting difficult - guess what.  Most of them won't post.  They will then go to other similar genre sites that the posting is more user friendly.  And it IS a valid issue.  You don't make a drastic paradigm shift on something as core as the editor until you have pretty much worked the "bugs" and problems out of the interface.  You should NOT be forcing your customers (in the case of IPS, the forum admins, and in the case of the forum admins - the users) to test it out for you.

The editor is not incredibly buggy nor are people required to "test" it out for us. C'mon… Let's do without the hyperbole, please.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

The editor is not incredibly buggy nor are people required to "test" it out for us. C'mon… Let's do without the hyperbole, please.

The editor has some severe warts compared to the "workings" of other script editors - and is lacking in several aspects (I should not have to know how to code an add-on to create a media BBcode).
If the IPS editor is all that you've been exposed to then no, it's not that bad.  But there is life other than IPS. :blink:

And explain exactly where the exaggeration is if users are not comfortable (or can't figure it out) using the editor they won't post?  Do you have a habit of continuously exposing yourself to something that causes you problems?  Most people will a few times, but if it is "to complicated" or not as easy as they are used to, they won't use it.
There are issues that are being "tested out" on the admins... and they are having to be changed. One is the quote function (or actually the ease of deletion of a quote box). It's not instinctive in it's process and not "user friendly".  It needs to be improved (and I believe it has been said by staff that would be discussed in one of their meetings).

Edited by T. D. Perry
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7 minutes ago, Tracy Perry said:

The editor has some severe warts compared to the "workings" of other script editors - and is lacking in several aspects (I should not have to know how to code an add-on to create a media BBcode).

You do not need too. Just need to know how to click a link and use search.

http://ckeditor.com/addon/bbcode

The new wysiwyg is a major step forward. If members wish to stay in the dark ages then you can always install addons to the ckeditor to dumb it down a little. The ckeditor offers a lot of flexibility, it is just a matter of doing some research.

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8 minutes ago, Paul.F said:

The new wysiwyg is a major step forward. If members wish to stay in the dark ages then you can always install addons to the ckeditor to dumb it down a little. The ckeditor offers a lot of flexibility, it is just a matter of doing some research.

Is it as easy as this (which doesn't require an add-on to an editor that is then dependent upon editor versions and making sure that your add-ons )?
The ability of adding a Media BBcode (notice I said MEDIA BBcode) can be helpful - but I don't think that add-on will work for MEDIA BBcode embeds.

 

564959347c486_ScreenShot2015-11-15at10.1

Edited by T. D. Perry
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Unluckily those that I looked at in the search have preconfigured media BBcodes.  I need to utilize custom ones (not many folks are going to want SpotWalla or Map My Ride media BBcodes so they aren't usually targeted in the "popular ones" lists).  Which is why being able to do custom ones directly are nice (that SpotWalla one is a custom one on my motorcycle site and allows tracking of my travels when integrated with my SPOT Gen 3).

Edited by T. D. Perry
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  • Management

Guys, if you have specific feedback for the editor, it's very important to keep it isolated in individual topics so it's not lost. I've logged "insert other media" feedback, but please start new topics for new and different suggestions. 

As for editor issues, if you're experiencing a bug - please report it to the bug tracker or submit a ticket. Obvious bias aside, I don't find the editor buggy at all apart from the quote concern Tracy has expressed, which is being addressed. Every issue I'm aware of that has surfaced since 4.0 has been addressed. Performance, mobile improvements, etc. 

I know some have their favorites based on what's familiar and what works better for them - but there is no perfect WYSIWYG editor. Redactor, CKE, TinyMCE all have pros and cons -- one working well for one particular software implementation doesn't necessarily it make it better or worse.

Please focus on targeted feedback - we're happy to accommodate. Again, things like quote deletion/confusion, draft clearing, etc. are things we've heard and are working on as we speak. 

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On November 15, 2015 at 11:01:23 PM, Tracy Perry said:

If the IPS editor is all that you've been exposed to then no, it's not that bad.  But there is life other than IPS. :blink:

Best not to assume. I've been on IPS for less than two months at this point. Prior to that I was on vBulletin, XenForo, Huddler's platform, and I've used Vanilla, phpBB, and other forum packages. WordPress, NSTextField… etc. Planty of experience with various editors.

On November 15, 2015 at 11:01:23 PM, Tracy Perry said:

There are issues that are being "tested out" on the admins... and they are having to be changed. One is the quote function (or actually the ease of deletion of a quote box). It's not instinctive in it's process and not "user friendly".  It needs to be improved (and I believe it has been said by staff that would be discussed in one of their meetings).

I agree, but by the same token, I remember plenty of times users would screw up a BBCode.

Let's not pretend BBCode is the be-all, end-all.

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39 minutes ago, iacas said:

Let's not pretend BBCode is the be-all, end-all.

Oh, it's not.. but don't remove the ability without an equivalent replacement capability.  Of course, I don't think IPS 3.x had custom media BBcodes - so that's a moot point.  Just what I consider a weakness in it for MY site.  If I decide that it's "life or death" for me, I'll simply change scripts to something that supports my requirements.  Since I don't effectively make money off my sites, all the costs are borne out of my pocketbook.  So I'd much rather have something that is done natively than having to pay for custom coding (and the associated upkeep with it when IPS structure changes).

You are aware of the difference between BBcodes and media BBcodes in the frame that I am referring to correct?  Media BBcodes are what allow you to post youtube type links and have it translated to the video (an in the case of SpotWalla a map tracking your GPS progress).

https://twowheeldemon.com/threads/spot-gen3.480/ is an example (which is a custom media one I created).

Edited by T. D. Perry
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30 minutes ago, Tracy Perry said:

Oh, it's not.. but don't remove the ability without an equivalent replacement capability.

Equivalent? That would be a huge step backward. BBCode is a dinosaur.

30 minutes ago, Tracy Perry said:

You are aware of the difference between BBcodes and media BBcodes in the frame that I am referring to correct?  Media BBcodes are what allow you to post youtube type links and have it translated to the video (an in the case of SpotWalla a map tracking your GPS progress).

Yes, I wrote my own back in the day, too. "Back in the day" is an operative phrase…

I get that you don't like the editor, but… BBCode is a dinosaur.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I get that you don't like the editor, but… BBCode is a dinosaur.

It may be.. but do you have a valid workable replacement for said dinosaur?  That's one of the main issues I have.  Don't just do something because it's you can - unless you have the ability to perform similar functions in an easy manner.  Of course, with IPS, it lacks a lot of the "power" features I'm used to - so I'm learning to work around them.

 

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Just now, Tracy Perry said:

It may be.. but do you have a valid workable replacement for said dinosaur?  That's one of the main issues I have.  Don't just do something because it's you can - unless you have the ability to perform similar functions in an easy manner.  Of course, with IPS, it lacks a lot of the "power" features I'm used to - so I'm learning to work around them.

The editor's fine IMO. I get that you feel differently.

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