Jump to content

Why is it not possible to buy Core only?


querschlaeger

Recommended Posts

Edit: Sorry, apologies. I've just noticed that if you click on continue you get a message telling you to select an app.

You're not forced to buy any apps. If you want to buy just the Suite Core, purchase just the Suite Core by setting the individual apps all to no.

core-only.thumb.png.96ae0ea5425cba867033

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I see the prices for all the apps are going up as well :P

IMO, raising Pages from $50 to $100 (double!) is a bit much... Pages in its current stage isn't worth $100. It'll need more features first.

True so true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah. I mean, I can understand adjusting to national inflation, but increasing the prices by 33%, 33%, 100%, 50%, 15% and 50% for the apps respectively is an exorbitant increase for an already quite expensive product that a lot of people probably can't afford already. It'll just push away more people and make them choose other alternatives like phpBB, SMF or XenForo, which could result in an actual revenue loss instead of increase. :P

Not to mention that the apps in IPS4 have a significantly less amount of features than in version 3 at this point, especially Pages.

I could totally get behind a price increase for the Core though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think prices are way expensive by now. Prices have been soaring in an year time, still the software is somewhat buggy and in some aspects, feature-lacking.

For the features the apps present, i can get almost the same thing for free. The only real special thing is the forum app, which is very good and deserves what it costs. The other ones are just regular or even below par, regarding the free alternatives like WP ecosystem, for example.

 

Don't get me wrong: the IPS ecosystem is good, but the prices surpass its perceived quality and will drive away many people. And the copyright price is astonishingly high, too.

Since last year it seems we are climbing an endless moutain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh goodness no. I can only imagine the threads at TAZ about the price increase and "This is an abomination. I am going to this software(that offers less functionality...but shh)" and IPS bashing lol. If it isn't there yet I am sure it will be there soon.

Seriously though, I am not sure how I feel about these price increases. Does this only affect new users...so the renewals are the same still regardless? Whatever renewal prices we are paying now?

On the one hand, I can understand if they consider this necessary but IPS as a whole is pushing towards Vbulletin level prices(If I was to buy my usual forum plus chat set up) that would be 210 dollars.

Raising the prices may have an adverse effect and push people towards other platforms simply because V3 there were complaints it was too high compared to some competitors and now it is even higher.

1. So do the price increase affect new users only or all users(Current users with renewals)?

2. How long is the IPB4 with IPB3 prices deal going to last?

That being said, perhaps there is a middle ground? @Lindy

If a customer such as myself brought 3.X IPB and chat...that was $185 with a 35 dollar renewal every 6 months...at 70 yearly.

If I buy the same thing now that is $210 upfront with the same renewal(if I assume) rate.

Is it possible to see customers paying yearly renewals because unless I am mistaken(and if I am) while this idea may be more profitable for the company, is there any happy medium for customers as well? Perhaps yearly renewals would lessen the blow of an increase.

My main concern with this price increase is...I'd  hope support response time will greatly increase for basic clients such as myself. Even before IPb4 release I can't say I was happy(but not unhappy) with response time...I think the guarantee is like within 48 hours for a reply(though it usually doesn't take that long).

I'd be happy paying more and I think many users may as well IF there is more being given to the customer vs getting a lot of same thing we've had a higher price(and according to some, lacking things we had before).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[conspiracy_theory]
(ether I can not use the search right or it sucks so i can not give a link) Lindy did say awhile ago that in a perfect world IPS would just be SAAS (something long them lines) So maybe making the prices higher for self hosted it makes the hosted/cloud version more appealing ;)
[/conspiracy_theory]

Its hard to know the true meaning why the prices have gone up its all speculation until a staff member clears it up and that's if they see the information worthy of been public, But might be as simple as a increase in their running costs so they have to pass that on as they are a business and they have staff to feed..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[conspiracy_theory]
(ether I can not use the search right or it sucks so i can not give a link) Lindy did say awhile ago that in a perfect world IPS would just be SAAS (something long them lines) So maybe making the prices higher for self hosted it makes the hosted/cloud version more appealing ;)
[/conspiracy_theory]

Its hard to know the true meaning why the prices have gone up its all speculation until a staff member clears it up and that's if they see the information worthy of been public, But might be as simple as a increase in their running costs so they have to pass that on as they are a business and they have staff to feed..

I actually do remember the SAAS comment. I am not sure if it was on here though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Management

Why can I not choose to buy Suite Core only: https://www.invisionpower.com/buy/self-hosted

On a new project I plan to use only Core and a special Marketplace app. So why I'm forced to buy a app that I don't need?

At this time, it is not possible to buy only the core. From a technical standpoint, it would not be difficult to do, but there is no renewal model to the core, yet we still obviously need to provide support for it, provide updates, etc. I'm not sure the demand is there to rework our strategy, but if it is, we can certainly reconsider. 

 

Another price increase?

You seem to imply there's a deep pattern of increases. Beyond brand removal (which as has been stated multiple times is not a service we particularly want to sell), we've not changed prices in years - literally. The forums app (formerly IPB) has seen one price increase in the last decade. The other apps have never had an increase, as far as I can recall. While the cost of doing business (and living) has skyrocketed over the past decade, our prices have not, until now. 

 

Yeah. I mean, I can understand adjusting to national inflation, but increasing the prices by 33%, 33%, 100%, 50%, 15% and 50% for the apps respectively is an exorbitant increase for an already quite expensive product that a lot of people probably can't afford already. It'll just push away more people and make them choose other alternatives like phpBB, SMF or XenForo, which could result in an actual revenue loss instead of increase. :P

Not to mention that the apps in IPS4 have a significantly less amount of features than in version 3 at this point, especially Pages.

I could totally get behind a price increase for the Core though.

I would respectfully suggest taking a step back and looking at the overall picture here of what we offer versus what others offer. The backing of a rock solid and stable company that's been in this industry for over 13 years (with largely the same core team), employing over half a dozen of the most talented developers in the business and a highly driven support team all to develop and support the most comprehensive community solution available does -- and should -- come at a premium. If cost is the primary driving force behind choosing a community solution, our Community in the Cloud solutions are not a right fit and the aforementioned points are irrelevant to you, then perhaps a free or more economical solution would indeed be a better choice and we perfectly understand. Many feel we should follow the Walmart principles and reach as many people as we can and make up for lower pricing with higher volume. That is not a principle we subscribe to at IPS -- we are not going for the sheer quantity of sales model; we, like other companies, are pricing our products at what we feel they are valued at and what our target market will reasonably sustain. While IPS4 is indeed still in its infancy and there are many improvements to be made, it should be clear by http://community.invisionpower.com/4releasenotes/ that while prices may be going up across the board, so too is immense progress. 

There is a degree of merit to the theory that we wish to make our cloud offerings more attractive. Self-hosted software at this level is frankly a nightmare when the manufacturer doesn't control the environment, especially when it is commonly used on $3.99/mo. web hosts. In that regard, we understand we may lose a relatively small sampling of potential customers that are looking for a cheap solution to run on even cheaper hosting and at the risk of seeming brash, we've come to be ok with that. Economy hosting accounts for half, if not more than our total support volume. So, there is in inherent advantage to both the client and IPS to choosing our Community in the Cloud platform. We control the environment, we can handle upgrades, we have access to everything we need from point a to point z whenever you submit a request, there's no middle-man and finger pointing between your hosting provider and software vendor -- it's a much smoother experience for everyone and a more pleasant experience for the client. We do, however, recognize that our current plans are a little behind the times so-to-speak and some are put off by the "online user" model. With that, we are rolling out brand new plans in the next month or so that will be based on page views, have much more flexible disk space options and overall, be more attractive. Current CiC clients will be able to migrate to those packages (or remain on their existing, if it's a better fit) and current self-hosted clients can migrate to the cloud at anytime - we will move your site for you, free of charge. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

You seem to imply there's a deep pattern of increases. Beyond brand removal (which as has been stated multiple times is not a service we particularly want to sell), we've not changed prices in years - literally. The forums app (formerly IPB) has seen one price increase in the last decade. The other apps have never had an increase, as far as I can recall. While the cost of doing business (and living) has skyrocketed over the past decade, our prices have not, until now. 

Well, i am onboard with IPS since about 2 years or so. I have bought a site that had IPBoard on it and i decided to keep it, considering the price-quality ratio. I am talking about what i have seen from this time. I have seen perpetual licences "terminated", huge increase in copyright removal fee, and also more than one big increase in price, and still not knowing if we will have further price increases. These are facts. At this time, i feel the price-quality ratio is no longer adequate considering other alternatives and i am not considering it anymore for other projects since the huge price increases.

 

Self-hosted software at this level is frankly a nightmare when the manufacturer doesn't control the environment, especially when it is commonly used on $3.99/mo. web hosts. In that regard, we understand we may lose a relatively small sampling of potential customers that are looking for a cheap solution to run on even cheaper hosting and at the risk of seeming brash, we've come to be ok with that.

Of course it would be nice to keep the money inflow without having to support lots of different clients, i am sure it would, but all depends on two things:

- Prices: your plans are very expensive. For example: i have a dedicated server, 8GB RAM, SSD disk, 8-core CPU for less than 20€ (about $22) monthly. I have no user limitations, nor disk size limitations, and runs pretty fast.

- Location: do you have european servers?

 

To summarize, i have not been considering IPS anymore for other projects because:

- App prices (i feel the money vacuum cleaner is taking my money away)

- Copyright removal price (it is not possible to have a proper "professional" site with a copyright tag on the bottom

- Increasing slow support response times.

Sorry being a bit harsh on this. As you know i have praised your approach to the design of IPB4, but i also need to give the negative feedback aspects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Management

Well, i am onboard with IPS since about 2 years or so. I have bought a site that had IPBoard on it and i decided to keep it, considering the price-quality ratio. I am talking about what i have seen from this time. I have seen perpetual licences "terminated", huge increase in copyright removal fee, and also more than one big increase in price, and still not knowing if we will have further price increases. These are facts. At this time, i feel the price-quality ratio is no longer adequate considering other alternatives and i am not considering it anymore for other projects since the huge price increases.

Sorry being a bit harsh on this. As you know i have praised your approach to the design of IPB4, but i also need to give the negative feedback aspects.

I certainly don't mind you sharing your thoughts and in fact welcome you to do so, but I do feel somewhat compelled to correct factual inaccuracies. Perpetual licenses were not terminated - there's still many "in circulation" -- they're simply not compatible with IPS4 without free conversion to the new license model. You don't have one of these licenses, so I'm unsure how that impacts you or why you'd even mention them. The only "huge increase" since you've been a client has been the copyright removal fee. On that subject, I must say that I think your statement regarding a copyright line being unprofessional is a bit off-base - it's actually typically the smaller hobbyist sites that get up in arms about branding removal -- that's not to say their/your concerns aren't legitimate, but it's a stretch to say software branding is unprofessional. Of all of the enterprise clients (which I would assume would be the pinnacle of professionalism by your standards) we provide service to, literally only a handful insist on branding removal and that is due to their internal policies set by their legal departments. That, however, is for another discussion - one that has played out previously. 

We take pricing increases seriously and do not make such decisions lightly. While renewals will increase slightly in the future as well, they too have never increased since the community suite license was introduced around 2005/2006. I think everyone could agree what we sold in 2005 is a far cry from what we're doing now and fixed and variable costs certainly haven't decreased since then. :)

Price to quality is of course subjective. As mentioned, IPS4 is a new product, a new platform and a new way of doing things. If you look at 4.0.0 to 4.0.8 I think you'd agree the progression has been substantial and prompt. Whether you feel the product will be "worth it" in a month, three months, six months, etc. from now is a question only you can answer. We've intentionally not officially raised the prices to allow further evolvement of IPS4 and more decision making time. Updating the site early simply gives a heads up and an opportunity to get a license (or additional) licenses prior to the prices actually increasing (no ETA.) 

Prices: your plans are very expensive. For example: i have a dedicated server, 8GB RAM, SSD disk, 8-core CPU for less than 20€ (about $22) monthly. I have no user limitations, nor disk size limitations, and runs pretty fast.

To be fair... you also have no IPS software included, you're responsible for managing that environment - you're responsible for database issues, configuration issues, etc. Further, $22/mo. would barely cover the power costs for a dedicated server, much less the server itself; so one must wonder where the sacrifice is being made (which could explain why our support overhead is so significant with self-hosted licenses.) Nonetheless, IPS does not provide "hosting" and you needn't worry about SSD, RAM or otherwise -- we provide a turnkey community solution; software and service, start to finish. I think your point of contention here is the inability to have your cake and eat it too so-to-speak... one wants bargain priced software to put on bargain priced hosting yet with enterprise level demands and no limitations. I truly can't fault anyone for that -- we all want the best possible value for our hard earned money, but we're simply not a bargain community provider and we're not targeting to beat everyone (or anyone specifically) on price, I'm afraid - I'm going to be completely honest and transparent about that. We're not competing with SMF, phpBB and XF. All are great products in their own right developed by good people, but with obvious overlap, we serve different markets and are taking a different direction than they are - not necessarily better, but different. We have a significantly higher investment to build a more comprehensive platform (looking outside of the forum bubble, that is) and as a larger company, we have a lot more overhead to account for. That comes at a cost, unfortunately. If you find some extra time, you should research commercial community solutions such as Lithium. We've had clients convert to our managed platform that were paying thousands and thousands a month for various solutions. We're not going for the free/open source or forum only demographic - we are well past the point of making that a sustainable business model. Likewise, we're not trying to shun the hobbyist market either as it does account for a good amount of our business and we enjoy building solutions for as many as possible. We are, however, admittedly not the best solution for the hobbyist that isn't prepared to make a moderate investment in their community OR unwilling to peruse our Community in the Cloud services. 

Regarding Community in the Cloud, I'd reiterate, new plans will be released and I strongly feel it will be a good solution for many. Disk space is cheap, so we don't need to be as  concerned about those limitations any longer. We've come to find that using online users as a metric for billing is a terrible and confusing way in this day and age to structure our plans around, so page views will be used instead. It's also, as I mentioned, turnkey... we can offer CiC services at a proportionately lesser cost than self-hosted licenses because if there's a support issue and provided it's not a third party app, we can and will fix it. Just about any CiC client can attest to the fact we rarely have environment issues because we know what we're doing, we spare no expense in doing it right and when something does go awry, we're equipped to fix it right away without putting the client into a daunting game of monkey in the middle. 

All of that said (my apologies for the long-winded reply) - we appreciate your business and do understand and appreciate your concerns. I'm sorry you feel the value is no longer there for you and hope as IPS4 matures, you'll come to find that's not true. 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Price for Content.

I don't mind too much in the case of Content if there are sufficient documentation to go with it. There is very little. Documentation that are present are written for the experienced. Content is a powerful tool...For those who know how to use it. Creating feeds and static pages are ok but it still requires some knowledge in programming or HTML. Database pages can get complicated. Content is marketed in a way that everyone can create their dream site. That's not the case. Judging by the topics there are quite a number of people who get stuck. It's not that they don't want to learn or try. What they need is documentation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Management

Price for Content.

I don't mind too much in the case of Content if there are sufficient documentation to go with it. There is very little. Documentation that are present are written for the experienced. Content is a powerful tool...For those who know how to use it. Creating feeds and static pages are ok but it still requires some knowledge in programming or HTML. Database pages can get complicated. Content is marketed in a way that everyone can create their dream site. That's not the case. Judging by the topics there are quite a number of people who get stuck. It's not that they don't want to learn or try. What they need is documentation.

Fair point and we agree. Pages documentation is a priority. Thanks for the feedback. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I would respectfully suggest taking a step back and looking at the overall picture here of what we offer versus what others offer. The backing of a rock solid and stable company that's been in this industry for over 13 years (with largely the same core team), employing over half a dozen of the most talented developers in the business and a highly driven support team all to develop and support the most comprehensive community solution available does -- and should -- come at a premium. If cost is the primary driving force behind choosing a community solution, our Community in the Cloud solutions are not a right fit and the aforementioned points are irrelevant to you, then perhaps a free or more economical solution would indeed be a better choice and we perfectly understand. Many feel we should follow the Walmart principles and reach as many people as we can and make up for lower pricing with higher volume. That is not a principle we subscribe to at IPS -- we are not going for the sheer quantity of sales model; we, like other companies, are pricing our products at what we feel they are valued at and what our target market will reasonably sustain. While IPS4 is indeed still in its infancy and there are many improvements to be made, it should be clear by http://community.invisionpower.com/4releasenotes/ that while prices may be going up across the board, so too is immense progress. 

There is a degree of merit to the theory that we wish to make our cloud offerings more attractive. Self-hosted software at this level is frankly a nightmare when the manufacturer doesn't control the environment, especially when it is commonly used on $3.99/mo. web hosts. In that regard, we understand we may lose a relatively small sampling of potential customers that are looking for a cheap solution to run on even cheaper hosting and at the risk of seeming brash, we've come to be ok with that. Economy hosting accounts for half, if not more than our total support volume. So, there is in inherent advantage to both the client and IPS to choosing our Community in the Cloud platform. We control the environment, we can handle upgrades, we have access to everything we need from point a to point z whenever you submit a request, there's no middle-man and finger pointing between your hosting provider and software vendor -- it's a much smoother experience for everyone and a more pleasant experience for the client. We do, however, recognize that our current plans are a little behind the times so-to-speak and some are put off by the "online user" model. With that, we are rolling out brand new plans in the next month or so that will be based on page views, have much more flexible disk space options and overall, be more attractive. Current CiC clients will be able to migrate to those packages (or remain on their existing, if it's a better fit) and current self-hosted clients can migrate to the cloud at anytime - we will move your site for you, free of charge. 

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind increasing the prices this much. I wouldn't frown upon the prices behind increased by a few percentages, like the forums app going from $75 to $80 or even $85, and the Pages app going from $50 to $60.

I agree that this is a premium product and it has absolutely been worth the current price tag so far.

However, the price increases of 33%, 33%, 100% (!!!), 50%, 15% and 50% per app respectively seemed somehwat excessive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I  do agree with vikestart at this, a price increase is indeed fair, especially considering how IPS tends to develop, but the amounts are simply too much and might shoo new clients away. I think a price increase of circa 5/10 euro/app or so is fair :)  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I see the prices for all the apps are going up as well :P

IMO, raising Pages from $50 to $100 (double!) is a bit much... Pages in its current stage isn't worth $100. It'll need more features first.

Pages in it's current condition isn't even worth $50.  It's not just the documentation.... it is simply incomplete. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Management

Pages in it's current condition isn't even worth $50.  It's not just the documentation.... it is simply incomplete. 

We power our company website, everything under the IPS4 Resources menu and more with Pages and it all intertwines with the rest of the suite. If that's not worth at least $100, I'm not sure what is. :)

I understand there's things you'd like to see (and hopefully you have feedback topics in place for that) or maybe you're struggling and documentation will in fact help. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We power our company website, everything under the IPS4 Resources menu and more with Pages and it all intertwines with the rest of the suite. If that's not worth at least $100, I'm not sure what is. :)

I understand there's things you'd like to see (and hopefully you have feedback topics in place for that) or maybe you're struggling and documentation will in fact help. 

If there is no upgrade path to 4.0 to make my website work the way it does today on the new software, then Pages is worth $0 to me.  

I knew that I would need to recreate my blocks for Pages, but I can't even recreate my existing ones because only one of the filtering options have made it over. 

Copy forum post to a Pages article is still in "Coming Soon" mode - We use this with some frequency.  But until it moves from Coming Soon to Complete, I can't upgrade.

There are no sample blocks/pages/templates included ... at least if one upgrades an existing installation. I have no idea what it looks like if it is a fresh install.

And the previously mentioned documentation.

I'm sure that Pages is just great if one is a coder, but for those of us who aren't coders but were able to make Content 3.4.x work, Pages is incomplete. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure that Pages is just great if one is a coder, but for those of us who aren't coders but were able to make Content 3.4.x work, Pages is incomplete. 

It’s more the other way around. IP.Content was for coders only, if you wanted anything but the basic functionality (e.g. default articles and default templates for them).
In Pages you can now achieve so much more with just ACP settings and drag-&-drop.  

But yes, that needs proper documentation (which is not yet there) and the upgrade paths for blocks and certain functionalities are still lacking. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...