Joey_M Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Personally, I think it was overly optimistic for them to offer this "perpetual" license since it seems unsustainable. Do you believe that they intended to defraud you? What are your actual damages? For breach it's probably up to the amount of money you paid for the license. I don't know how generous the offer is right now. The seem to be trying to correct a short sighted error by giving you value close to what it would cost them to buy themselves out of a breach of contract. Now I can understand the shock of surprise. But is this really as harmful as you're making into being or are they in the ballpark for trying to do right? I'd agree with you. It was overly optimistic but it was what was offered. The point I am making is people took the offer, goodwill or purely naive - I took it because back then a year license wasn't very flexible and I was attracted to saving my by not being forced to pay for upgrade. Obviously I did each time one of my other sites required updating or support, although naturally due to cost I have had to cut back. Defraud me? No I never thought that at all. There are no actual damages, you would know this of course. However, in the long run I would have to pay for more than I would have and this would be considered differently. There's right and wrong here, least not as such and nobody can say there isn't. It depends on how you view it, I believe it's wrong to remove an agreement you had in place, although I am sure within time I would accept it - that doesn't make it right. What is right is the fact IPS have offered something, Lindy as already stated that they could like others and leave us with nothing and the good will gesture is appreciated. Yet as someone who would lose out in the long run, I am inclined to defend my view point and what I should have received. I wouldn't back down because what I am saying is valuable for this company and at the end of the day we are all the same regardless of what types of licenses we own. It's just that I have perpetual license and people are being rather overly protective, yet I do suspect it would be different on the other foot. Perhaps though, others wouldn't be so willing to stand up for themselves. I am guilty of that! Couple of points -- you will indeed have the ability to completely shutoff features of the suite (gallery, blog, forums, content, commerce, downloads) -- the suite will be a unified download based on what you've purchased, but gone are the days of having to have forums active to have a blog. Again, members, profiles, ad management, search, etc. have all been moved to the core application. Secondly, I'll reiterate -- perpetual licenses were once all the rage. Customers and companies alike took a gamble of sorts -- from a customer perspective, you gambled on the company being around in 3 years to make your purchase worthwhile. From a company standpoint, we all gambled on residual returns from support renewals, value-adds, etc. Unfortunately, for most, IPS included, the latter didn't come close to materializing. Most (with a few exceptions, of course) never renewed or added anything to the licenses. That's fine of course and we continued to honor the terms of the license all of these years and we'll continue to take care of our early supporters in the best way that we can, but if we hadn't changed the structure after 2006, we wouldn't be here today - nor would many other companies. In regards to how this topic came to be -- there's not been an official announcement (or even finalization of plans.) A customer contacted us because he was not able to update the URL on an inactive perpetual license. At the time, I felt I was being helpful and up front in informing him of future changes and offering to convert his license to the newer structure and a free renewal (we've offered this for quite some time and have even run promotions.) A short while later, the response was "leaked" to TAZ. :smile: No harm, no foul - though it would have been ideal to announce and address this in a more organized fashion. Joey - I received your e-mail and responded accordingly. I hope it's of at least a little help. As an insight I found the first paragraphs to be very useful. To be honest I have found it reasonably stressful, I am not in a position to throw money down the drain and I consider any purchase I make in life to be one of smart investment. Now, I am sure someone will say I had my monies worth but again this is not the point. I had a frank discussion with my other half, having cut back on some expenditure and naturally with price increases I have had to close down sites. All my sites are hobbies, I do them because I enjoy it and I like giving back to people. I recall Matt stating many moons ago this exactly why he got into designing forums/bulletin boards (that's an old term). I understand the survival and I would like to think I will be there with you, as once upon a time I never thought I'd leave but at times I have because of the cost. I have only kept my perpetual license active at times, for purpose of my main site. Hence why it was useful to be able to update/upgrade it without cost, making it seem like a sound investment. Point taken though. I am afraid this is part care and concern, what would the point of posting otherwise and as I say I consider my input to be valuable. I appreciate your response, thank you.
Management Lindy Posted June 7, 2014 Management Posted June 7, 2014 Esquire - thank you for the feedback. That's certainly an interesting assessment, though not the one I wished to inspire. :smile: I've seen numerous references to why we offered perpetual licenses in the first place and I was illustrating the reason why: it was deemed necessary to compete as that was a standard licensing model at that time -- not necessarily in the forum industry, but software in general. It was mentioned that customers took a "gamble" on perpetual licenses and I agree - however, it was bilateral. I believe the real issue stems from understandable mistrust in the industry given certain happenings over the past 5 years. It's natural for people to see seemingly minor changes as "oh, here we go again with a different company" and I completely understand that notion. On the flipside, we are not hobbyists that do this for fun (though we do enjoy what we do) nor are we a large corporate conglomerate complete with executive jets (or yachts.) We are here earning a living, feeding our families just like everyone else. We employ some of the most talented people in the industry and reinvest heavily back into our company and thus our customers. We're not living an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous behind the scenes. :smile: Ultimately, we are trying to do the right thing while fitting within our current and future needs and direction. We'll continue to ponder this over coming weeks to find ways to lessen ill feelings.
esquire Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 There's right and wrong here, least not as such and nobody can say there isn't. It depends on how you view it, I believe it's wrong to remove an agreement you had in place, although I am sure within time I would accept it - that doesn't make it right. What is right is the fact IPS have offered something, Lindy as already stated that they could like others and leave us with nothing and the good will gesture is appreciated. Yet as someone who would lose out in the long run, I am inclined to defend my view point and what I should have received.I'm sympathetic - it's an unfortunate surprise when you bargain for something and think that you're going to get every dime of an incredible windfall. What sometimes happen is that the company goes bankrupt. The owners start up a new company using a different and more sustainable business model and you're left with nothing. It was a gamble to try such a license and it wasn't economically sustainable. It happens. But look at the bright side - you're not out anything you invested and still ahead of what you did. In many cases, you gamble and lose everything.
Joey_M Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 On the flipside, we are not hobbyists that do this for fun (though we do enjoy what we do) nor are we a large corporate conglomerate complete with executive jets (or yachts.) We are here earning a living, feeding our families just like everyone else. Originally I took this as a dig - However just to be clear myself, I wasn't implying any of the IPS staff was hobbyists. I am, though I have learned a hell of a lot by doing so. I just recall Matt stating after IPB changed into paid software, he genuinely became interested in forum/bulletin board software to give back at the very start but it wasn't visible with time and commitments. Ultimately, we are trying to do the right thing while fitting within our current and future needs and direction. We'll continue to ponder this over coming weeks to find ways to lessen ill feelings. I personally would like to thank you for considering this, I think it would go along way. I'm sympathetic - it's an unfortunate surprise when you bargain for something and think that you're going to get every dime of an incredible windfall. What sometimes happen is that the company goes bankrupt. The owners start up a new company using a different and more sustainable business model and you're left with nothing. It was a gamble to try such a license and it wasn't economically sustainable. It happens. But look at the bright side - you're not out anything you invested and still ahead of what you did. In many cases, you gamble and lose everything. Very fair points. The good thing which comes from discussing and adding replies, is that I am not resentful. The danger with some customers is they might go a way and grudges held for whatever reason but I don't wish harm or for IPS to go bust over offering something they cannot, yet would they really go bust with 4% of users. I know you haven't said that as such but I don't know. This is neither the point now, I can move on because I have expressed my views. I am pleased to see that we're not all being branded perpetual users who are only out to gain. At the end of the day there's a little thing called customer care and it's good to know that IPS do. I was wrong for saying they didn't, yet at the time I felt that way. Hopefully others will come around without too much hassle.
Tripp★ Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Can someone explain in clear English just what's going on? My little head just isn't comprehending. To make matters worse it seems a lot of what is said is based off of... I don't even know what, and Lindy has been helpful but I don't see what the problem is... Yet. As far as I was aware: A perpetual license is:- You can use it indefinitely If you want to update the software you have to have an active license. Etc. Yet despite the title all I'm really seeing is stuff that doesn't affect perpetual license holders, just "Legacy" which I assume paid for the product and got free updates. If you really are cutting perpetual licenses... Does that mean we can only use the software during the license period? How does this affect everyone?
Management Lindy Posted June 7, 2014 Management Posted June 7, 2014 Can someone explain in clear English just what's going on? My little head just isn't comprehending. To make matters worse it seems a lot of what is said is based off of... I don't even know what, and Lindy has been helpful but I don't see what the problem is... Yet. As far as I was aware: A perpetual license is:- You can use it indefinitely If you want to update the software you have to have an active license. Etc. Yet despite the title all I'm really seeing is stuff that doesn't affect perpetual license holders, just "Legacy" which I assume paid for the product and got free updates. If you really are cutting perpetual licenses... Does that mean we can only use the software during the license period? How does this affect everyone? This wouldn't impact you at all, or anyone else (generally speaking) who purchased after 2006. This only impacts legacy customers.
Joey_M Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Can someone explain in clear English just what's going on? My little head just isn't comprehending. To make matters worse it seems a lot of what is said is based off of... I don't even know what, and Lindy has been helpful but I don't see what the problem is... Yet. As far as I was aware: A perpetual license is:- You can use it indefinitely If you want to update the software you have to have an active license. Etc. Yet despite the title all I'm really seeing is stuff that doesn't affect perpetual license holders, just "Legacy" which I assume paid for the product and got free updates. If you really are cutting perpetual licenses... Does that mean we can only use the software during the license period? How does this affect everyone? A perpetual license is explained by the above terms found >here. Whatever the agreement was packaged under, is what you expect but it's really not the point. As for clear English, several members have already stated in detail but for the sake of it... 1) You can use the license for aslong as required - You will need to pay for all updates 2) It only affects people who have a perpetual license which was outlined in the link I provided. I understand that everyone on IP.Board 3 or below will be able to upgrade to 4.0 without having to purchase a new license, they will just need an active license.
Tripp★ Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 This wouldn't impact you at all, or anyone else (generally speaking) who purchased after 2006. This only impacts legacy customers. That helps. 2) It only affects people who have a perpetual license which was outlined in the link I provided. That doesn't and contradicts exactly what Lindy just said. Hence my confusion.
Joey_M Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 That helps. That doesn't and contradicts exactly what Lindy just said. Hence my confusion. *facepalm* Legacy licenses are perpetual and life time licenses. Legacy is just the term to include both, which are actually one of the same.
crunchyg Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Labeling perpetual license holders as "legacy" is insulting to people who bought those licenses. "Legacy" is something companies want to get rid of, and by definition you should not be wanting to get rid of something that's perpetual. So you guys should be calling them what they are, perpetual customers, not "legacy" customers. From what I'm reading in Lindy's comment's, the takeaway is "IPS gambled on the wrong thing" and "times have changed." Can you come to a casino, bet a bunch of money on red, and then tell the dealer, "I was wrong in betting on that" or "times have changed?" Can you offer to convert the casino to another product? Say, instead of a duffle bag with 100K can you offer them a "free upgrade" to a duffle bag with only 10K? I'd like to see the casino's reaction to that.
Tripp★ Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 What? So what License am I on then..? I don't usually lurk around here; just started recently because I've learnt a lot. I know I'm asking an awful lot as I said the language is all confusing. I thought Legacy was Buy it. Free upgrades - That's it. Perpetual as far as I know it is buy it; have to renew for upgrades unless already active. Pretty sure that's what I have.
Joey_M Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 What? So what License am I on then..? I don't usually lurk around here; just started recently because I've learnt a lot. I know I'm asking an awful lot as I said the language is all confusing. I thought Legacy was Buy it. Free upgrades - That's it. Perpetual as far as I know it is buy it; have to renew for upgrades unless already active. Pretty sure that's what I have. Tripp, I suspect you're on a standard license. IPS changed the terms of them after they removed the legacy one's (Lifetime/Perpetual). Back in the day, you had to pay for support yearly and to use the software you had to have active license unless you had a lifetime/perpetual which granted you use forever. Since you joined in 2009, it's highly unlikely you have anything other than a standard one. Nothing at all wrong with that, I have several of the same. Can someone explain in clear English just what's going on? My little head just isn't comprehending. To make matters worse it seems a lot of what is said is based off of... I don't even know what, and Lindy has been helpful but I don't see what the problem is... Yet.As far as I was aware: A perpetual license is:- You can use it indefinitely If you want to update the software you have to have an active license. Etc. Yet despite the title all I'm really seeing is stuff that doesn't affect perpetual license holders, just "Legacy" which I assume paid for the product and got free updates. If you really are cutting perpetual licenses... Does that mean we can only use the software during the license period? How does this affect everyone?
Tripp★ Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 That helps! Clear English - Never fails. :D Thank you Joey_M.
Rheddy Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Lindy, you've explained it perfectly. Somejust don't understand the concept of perpetual licenses and mostly came on board with IPS after IPS3 Suite was released. Many of us who are still here, have been with IPS since the beginning. I came on board with IPB 1.3(final) and back then, everyone, every software company, was offering perpetual lifetime licenses. Matter of fact, back then, every forum software back then only contained just the forum software so it was beneficial to software companies that produce forum software. I imagine that IPS made extra profit off lifetime licenses. Then, every forum software platform started creating addons such as blog, gallery, downloads, etc, to addon to their forum software platforms. IPS3 came out and so the end to perpetual licenses went with it, because many would confuse the lifetime licenses as including gallery, blog and downloads. It no longer became beneficial to offer lifetime licenses since the renewal options were changed from 12 month cycles down to 6 month cycles.
esquire Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Can you come to a casino, bet a bunch of money on red, and then tell the dealer, "I was wrong in betting on that" or "times have changed?" Can you offer to convert the casino to another product? Say, instead of a duffle bag with 100K can you offer them a "free upgrade" to a duffle bag with only 10K? I'd like to see the casino's reaction to that.My sympathies - I do understand the disappointment but I'm trying to make sense of this.I don't think that this is a good analogy. How much did you pay for the "perpetual license" when you bought it? Let's say you spent $100 more to get a "perpetual" license over the "standard" IPB 2 license. As a result, you ended up avoiding having to pay $500+ worth of licensing fees. Your disappointment is that the extra $100 spend didn't return an even greater windfall of thousands of dollars of endless development. Felt like the big gamble it was back then and not surprised it didn't pan out. At the end of the day, I think you're still coming out ahead. The question is whether you want a mediocre product for a longer period of time or accept that top products cost money and sometimes there is a need to determine how to move forward.
Makoto Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I don't think that this is a good analogy. It's not. The analogy doesn't make sense. They'll still keep their license no matter what happens. Perpetual license holders paid for a product once and received nearly a decades worth of free upgrades, that's not being taken away from them.
Jυra Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 If IPS is a company that prides itself in doing the right thing then do the right thing. Those people are having what they paid for removed. I don't have such a license but there will be a time when something like this will happen to me by IPS. I would like to hope the community would show their support and not rigorously defend a bad decision. It's not like someone is going to give you gifts just for defending the brand by sucking up.
Management Lindy Posted June 7, 2014 Management Posted June 7, 2014 I think this is causing more confusion than clarity, especially amongst current customers already with a standard license, so allow me to close (for now) with this: If you are reading this and you purchased a licensed directly from us in 2007 or beyond, this most likely would have no impact on you anyway. Even if you purchased before then, there's a chance that it doesn't impact you as many customers have already converted to the "standard" license structure over the years to leverage extras such as spam mitigation, chat and visual skin editor. If you do have a perpetual or lifetime license, please understand -- nothing has actually changed to date and we have not officially made any announcement as to our final transition plans - which we will continue to consider to try and strike a happy medium that allows our new platform to continue moving forward while allowing early supporters to still take advantage of their forum purchase. You do have the option of (and this has been the case for years) upgrading your license to the standard (2007+) license structure, free of charge. You would receive six months of free renewals, after which time, your renewals would be billed at $25 every six months (provided you only have a forum license.) I would also note that regardless of any transition plans, you WILL have continued use of Invision Power Board/IP.Board 3. I apologize to those who feel slighted or betrayed. We feel we have provided incredible value to you over the years and will continue, in coming weeks, to explore the best way forward to ensure most are left happy. In the interim, I'd kindly ask that you await further - official - notice as to how we'll move forward for you. If such a change would have an impact on you, I assure you that you will be properly notified and not via third party. :smile: Thank you for your patience and continued support. As always, please feel free to reach out to us via the client area should you have any individual account / licensing questions - you may also ask that your request be escalated if you have further concerns.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.